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AC Fines Man For "deliberately" Delaying Flight.  
User currently offlineSQuared From Canada, joined May 2005, 387 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 11561 times:

According to the Globe and Mail, Air Canada has fined a man for deliberately delaying a flight from LHR-YYZ. He got into an argument with a FA, where he "raised his voice and used abusive language" towards the FA. He was fined $1,350 for delaying the flight by 27 minutes.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...0.wxaircan20/BNStory/Business/home

SQuared

36 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3806 posts, RR: 29
Reply 1, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 11487 times:

Incredible... an airline besides Southwest who will actually stand behind their staff and even send a clear message that the proverbial inmates will not be allowed to run the prison. Wonder if Air Canada's response would have been different if the unruly, abusive "inmate" had been an elite member of their caste system?

User currently offlineNkops From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2688 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 11439 times:

I wish more airlines would do that.. (looking at you Katie Couric). I wonder if the FAA would back up an American airline like that??


I have no association with Spirit Airlines
User currently offlineSalomon From Canada, joined Jun 2006, 205 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 11233 times:

Does that mean I could send Air Canada a bill if my flight is not on schedule? Big grin


Takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory.
User currently offlineFrequentFlyKid From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1206 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 11184 times:

Not that I condone the actions of this person, but Salomon makes a good point...

User currently offlineSebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1666 posts, RR: 14
Reply 5, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 11167 times:

Quoting FrequentFlyKid (Reply 4):
Not that I condone the actions of this person, but Salomon makes a good point...

Well, this individual technically broke the law and caused the airline to incur cost, and I assume if an airline's lateness is the result of a breach of the law or its licence, and if it costs you money, then you have a right to seek compensation. Most airlines offer compensation for lateness that is due to its equipment or crews - as opposed to weather, ATC, etc.


User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8690 posts, RR: 16
Reply 6, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 11155 times:

Quoting FrequentFlyKid (Reply 4):
but Salomon makes a good point...

He does make a valid point. I wish I could bill US for my 3hr delay at PHL. I wish more airlines would that. They would make MILLIONS of dollars over thet.

MCOflyer



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineTimeair From Canada, joined May 2005, 436 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 11140 times:

Quoting Salomon (Reply 3):
Does that mean I could send Air Canada a bill if my flight is not on schedule?

...Yes...IF.. you could get it written into the legalities in regards to interferring with flight crew and their duties, which may result in fines and/or imprisonment if resulting in a delay, and allowing the air carrier to seek compensation caused by the individual(s). This law is also incorporated into whereas an aircraft needs to divert due to medical emergency, the carrier can seek compensation from the patient and/or insurance company. This law is very seldom if at all used as most carriers are compassionate to the medical well being of their customers. But when you get some idiot ranting on the plane...."Excuse me sir, here is a bill for your stupidity and arrogance!" is what the flight attendant should say when a lengthy delay occurs by one individual.. as she tucks a slip into his chest pocket..  bigthumbsup 



You can't get there from here.
User currently offlineSNATH From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3247 posts, RR: 22
Reply 8, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 11140 times:

Just curious: so, how does an airline "fine" a person? Is it a case of "either give us the money or you don't get on our planes again"? I can't see how they can enforce the fine otherwise...

Tony



Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
User currently offlineRichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 11121 times:

Quoting SNATH (Reply 8):
Just curious: so, how does an airline "fine" a person? Is it a case of "either give us the money or you don't get on our planes again"? I can't see how they can enforce the fine otherwise...

Take the person to court for costs associated with the delay caused by the defendants actions.


User currently offlineLongHauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5132 posts, RR: 43
Reply 10, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 11067 times:

Quoting SNATH (Reply 8):
I can't see how they can enforce the fine otherwise...

The passenger in this case was asked by Air Canada in a letter to defend his actions, and give them reason why NOT to ban them from Air Canada, Air Canada Jazz and partners in the "unruly passenger no-fly list. This list is shared by many many international airlines, and can result in quite a hardship trying to find someone to fly you from A to B.

It was stated that also, several passengers around the incident also reported to the CTA, (Canadian Transportation Agency) that the actions they witnessed backed up what Air Canada, and its employees reported.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineSafeFlyer From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 627 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 11067 times:

Oh my... and just look at the replies it got on the Globe and Mail website. I'm not a registered user but If I would, I think I'd rant. All of these people are saying: "Lesson is, don't fly Air Canada, rude service!" Really, Canadians just LOVE to bitch about AC. Fact is, they're REALLY not that bad! Some of those people are even relating to flight 25, yes 25 years ago! I have had 90% of the time VERY nice and professional crews on AC this year on 14 different flights. I'd say really, only 1 of those had a crew member with a very bad attitude (which I reported and that AC even wrote back to me about) and another one where they weren't rude, but just disinterested.

If the passenger was being abusive then yes, AC did the right thing. Fining him? Mmm, maybe that's a little far-streched, they could have just not reimbursed the return portion of his ticket (which they did).

'Safe


User currently offlineSNATH From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3247 posts, RR: 22
Reply 12, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 11043 times:

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 9):

Take the person to court for costs associated with the delay caused by the defendants actions.

Oh, I see. The "either pay us now or we'll take you to court" approach. I see.

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 10):

The passenger in this case was asked by Air Canada in a letter to defend his actions, and give them reason why NOT to ban them from Air Canada, Air Canada Jazz and partners in the "unruly passenger no-fly list. This list is shared by many many international airlines, and can result in quite a hardship trying to find someone to fly you from A to B.

It was stated that also, several passengers around the incident also reported to the CTA, (Canadian Transportation Agency) that the actions they witnessed backed up what Air Canada, and its employees reported.

I didn't question why they were doing it. I was just curious of how they will do it. That's all!

Tony



Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8690 posts, RR: 16
Reply 13, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 11010 times:

Quoting SNATH (Reply 8):
Just curious: so, how does an airline "fine" a person? Is it a case of "either give us the money or you don't get on our planes again"? I can't see how they can enforce the fine otherwise...

Negligence at the job and in the work place enviroment. If he has direct deposit, his employer will deduct it monthly.

MCOflyer



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineSalomon From Canada, joined Jun 2006, 205 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 10969 times:

Quoting Sebring (Reply 5):
Well, this individual technically broke the law and caused the airline to incur cost, and I assume if an airline's lateness is the result of a breach of the law or its licence, and if it costs you money, then you have a right to seek compensation.

Why did Air Canada insist in fining that person 1350$? Its not like it would drive them out of business... Is it to set an example or a matter of principles?

[Edited 2006-09-20 20:30:18]


Takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory.
User currently offlineDavidYYC From Canada, joined Sep 2004, 238 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 10744 times:

Fining.....I find that strange. What authority does AC have to "fine" passengers? Maybe they could sue for related costs incurred, or forbid travel etc, but fining implies some kind of legal authority, like a policeman judge or traffic-cop! Would this "fine" stand in court if it went that far?

User currently offlineLucky727 From Canada, joined Sep 2003, 602 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 10685 times:

Quoting Salomon (Reply 14):
Why did Air Canada insist in fining that person 1350$?

Well, I'll venture a guess: the 13:05 slot for departure from LHR costs $4000. A delay of 27 minutes pushes the departure slot into a 'prime-time', busier period where the departure slot costs $1350 more. (I don't know if carriers pay 'departure fees', maybe it's factored into the landing fees - anyone?)

What I did find interesting at the end of the article:

"to pay $18,490 to British Airways for causing a disruption on a flight from Stockholm to New York"

since when do BA fly from ARN to JFK??

Lucky727



··· [·] oooooooo [·] oooo oo ooooo [·] ooooooooooooooooooo [·]
User currently offlineNerak11 From New Zealand, joined Feb 2006, 6 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 9286 times:
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Quoting SQuared (Thread starter):
According to the Globe and Mail, Air Canada has fined a man for deliberately delaying a flight from LHR-YYZ

It should be noted that the article does not refer to the passenger being fined, just sent a bill.


User currently offlineAeroplan73 From Canada, joined May 2006, 165 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 8779 times:

Sounds like a very unreasonable man, and you can hardly fault Air Canada for taking action.

I find it slightly hilarious that he must - "submit in writing the reasons why he should be accepted as a passenger on Air Canada or Jazz Air flights."

Lol, it's like being punished after class by writing 'I will not.....' on the blackboard.

Hopefully in the future he learns to relax and go with the flow while on board. Moronic passengers can really set the tone for a crappy flight for everyone else.



I remember, the choices were chicken or fish. I had the lasagna.
User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 8579 times:

Air Canada can not fine anyone and the story does not say they did. A fine is something levied only by a court or government agency. In this case Air Canada billed the passenger for delaying the flight and the Canadian Transportation Agency (CTA) upheld the charge. The only mention of a fine in the article is about a fine levied by the CTA on model on a BA flight.

User currently offlineLincoln From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 3887 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 8546 times:

Quoting Nerak11 (Reply 17):
It should be noted that the article does not refer to the passenger being fined, just sent a bill.

...and that that possibilitiy is outlined in the carrier's terms and conditions.

Of course, I'm an American speaking about American law in a Canadian thread, so this may be irrelevent--or simply incorrect, but...

My understanding is that (US) courts tend to look unfavorably upon contracts that are loaded with one-sided penalties, where the penalty is not adaquately disclosed, or if the penalty is way out of line with the actual damages caused by one party to the other. (See, for ex., American Car Rental v. Comissioner of Consumer Protection where ) If this is correct,

(a) if Air Canada actually suffered $1300 in damage (which doesn't sound unreasonable) they could collect if the consumer had acknoweded the penalty [just burrying it in the terms and conditions was not enough in the American Car Rental Case], and

(b) potentially conversely you may be able to argue that their penalty reflects the importance of punctuality and you should have the same expectations. (No, that's not a well-formulated opinion)

I'd love to know how this turns out -- and I'm glad that an airline is standing up to unreasonable customers, even if they never actually get money.

Lincoln
(I'm not a lawyer. In the US, in Canada...anywhere).



CO Is My Airline of Choice || Baggage Claim is an airline's last chance to disappoint a customer || Next flts in profile
User currently offlineLongHauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5132 posts, RR: 43
Reply 21, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 8459 times:

Is the passenger obliged to pay the bill ... probably not.

Is Air Canada likely to go further than the original billing to recover the costs ... probably not.

Will Air Canada add his name to the "Unruly Passenger No-fly List" shared by many world airlines ... probably.

Will he be able to cross the Atlantic again on an airline of which we have heard ... probably not!

Quoting Aeroplan73 (Reply 18):
I find it slightly hilarious that he must - "submit in writing the reasons why he should be accepted as a passenger on Air Canada or Jazz Air flights."

Lol, it's like being punished after class by writing 'I will not.....' on the blackboard.

I guess if you act like a spoiled three year old, that is how you are treated.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineSlashd0t From Canada, joined Dec 2002, 221 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 8411 times:

I think i'm going to go against the grain here and disagree.. If A/C delays my flight for reasons other then weather etc (staff issues) it costs my business money, so, can I sue Air Canada for that loss? These are things that need to be absorbed in the "cost of doing business" category. If my flight is late 2 hrs, I lose 2 hrs of billable time meaning I lose nearly $500.. I understand he delayed the flight, but, Air Canada delays flights all the time for reasons such as staffing or maintanence. What can we do??

suck it up buttercup Big grin



/.
User currently offlineBeechnut From Canada, joined Apr 2004, 728 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 8369 times:

Quoting Salomon (Reply 3):
Does that mean I could send Air Canada a bill if my flight is not on schedule?

You could try but it won't get you too far. I travelled with my family to LHR on Flight 866 on Sunday, July 30. The flight incurred a 12 hour technical delay. While they put us up in a hotel that night (for all of about 3 hours as it was past 1 am when they finally conceded we weren't going to fly), they did NOT compensate me for costs the lateness caused at the other end. Basically we were not able to proceed to our final destination in Wales that evening as we arrived at LHR at 10 pm. We had pre-paid bookings in Wales and had to take a hotel in Reading that night at our own expense, so we basically paid twice for accomodation as a result.

AC offered us $200 rebates on our next flights if taken within 1 year. I asked for reimbursement of the hotel room but was refused. While normally a loyal AC customer (and once an Elite Aeroplan member when I travelled a lot on business), I feel AC dropped the ball on this one. The $200 credits didn't help me pay my August Visa bill, to which the extra charge was posted.

Beech


User currently offlineLongHauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5132 posts, RR: 43
Reply 24, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 8348 times:

Quoting Slashd0t (Reply 22):
can I sue Air Canada for that loss?

Of course you can, that is the Great American Pass time. But, would you win? That is unlikely. You would have to prove willful negligence, and that is very difficult in an airline operation.

In other words, an airline would dearly love for all of its flight to leave and arrive on time. However, for you to win a lawsuit, you would have to prove that it was intentional to delay your flight. Or ... that reasonable procedures were not in place to avoid delays.

And, looking at most major airlines, and the intensity with which it drives its processes to ensure an on-time departure, I would guess it would almost be impossible to prove the airline was negligent.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
25 Polaris : All this over nothing more than an assigned seat. Wouldn't it have been easier for the passenger to get up and move to the seat that was assigned to t
26 Lincoln : Would have been cheaper, too! Lincoln
27 VonRichtofen : [quote=LongHauler,reply=24] Not only that but in the Contract of Carriage you agree to when purchasing a ticket it states that the airline has an obli
28 DeltaJet757 : Good for AC. That man deserved that fine. People have connections to make and places to go and places to see, people to meet. -DeltaJet757
29 We're Nuts : Some passengers need to learn the hard way that their flight attendants are also humans.
30 Post contains images Nonfirm : That's A great reply.
31 Post contains images BMIFlyer : Way to go AC They should have fined him and thrown him off as well. I do not appreciate anyone who has a similar job to an F/A being shouted at by a c
32 DL Widget Head : Isn't that what they did?
33 Post contains images BMIFlyer : Ah yes, I didn't read the report, just the thread Lee
34 AirCanada014 : I don't think you can sue AC, if you want to sue I think its the passenger you want to sue. I don't know where you see AC fault for delaying the flig
35 Post contains images Gr8Circle : Yes....you certainly can, if you can prove that the airline deliberately went out of its way to ensure that the flight was delayed.......wish you luc
36 Robsawatsky : Not exactly, the airline billed him; but they actually refunded him the unused part of his ticket because that is what AC's tariffs require for this
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