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Delta 777-200LR Order  
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6648 posts, RR: 2
Posted (8 years 3 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 17273 times:

I have heard in a past thread that Delta has converted the remaining five 777-200ER orders to 777-200LRs. However, at the Boeing website, the orders are still listed as for 777-200ERs with RR engines.

These orders however are through August 2006, and might have been changed more recently. Does anyone have any information on this?


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
68 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJbmitt From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 549 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (8 years 3 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 17250 times:

Nobody knows anything more. No press release=no information privy to the general public.

User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4764 posts, RR: 44
Reply 2, posted (8 years 3 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 17187 times:

all will be clear in time.


Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 3, posted (8 years 3 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 17047 times:

You know full well that they used to be listed as GE, and have been changed BACK to RR.

N


User currently offlineGlom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2821 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 16844 times:

DL is in Ch11. Can it order anything?

User currently offlineDAL767400ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 3 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 16744 times:

Quoting Glom (Reply 4):
DL is in Ch11. Can it order anything?

No, DL can't place an order for new planes, but they are allowed to make changes to existing orders, e.g. converting 772ERs and 738s on order to 772LRs, as will be made official hopefully soon.


User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4764 posts, RR: 44
Reply 6, posted (8 years 3 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 16718 times:

It will be interesting to see DL's fleet plan.


Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineOkie73 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 446 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 3 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 16542 times:

Quoting Glom (Reply 4):
DL is in Ch11. Can it order anything?



Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 5):
No, DL can't place an order for new planes,

that is not correct. They would need approval of the judge, but they could in fact place an order for new aircraft.


User currently offlineDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (8 years 3 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 16518 times:

...which no judge in his/her right mind would approve.


One Nation Under God
User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4764 posts, RR: 44
Reply 9, posted (8 years 3 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 16487 times:

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 8):
...which no judge in his/her right mind would approve.

not necessarily true.



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineOkie73 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 446 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (8 years 3 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 16348 times:

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 8):
...which no judge in his/her right mind would approve.

I didn't say a judge would approve. The point is, he could approve. So it is not impossible for an airline in CH11 to order new aircraft. Unlikely, yes. Impossible, no.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31433 posts, RR: 85
Reply 11, posted (8 years 3 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 16325 times:
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Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 8):
...which no judge in his/her right mind would approve.

If new equipment would bring in greater revenue then flying older equipment, the judge would not be in their right minds if they automatically dismissed it.

It's not just about next month's RoI. It's about next year's and next decade's.

Focusing solely on the "immediate term" is what sent US back into C11 a year after exiting it.


User currently onlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3489 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (8 years 3 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 16301 times:

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 8):
...which no judge in his/her right mind would approve.

A judge may indeed approve it if it were part of a exit bankruptcy financing plan, similar to what US did with Airbus and the A350. I could see DL ordering 50 787s as part of a financing deal with Boeing which would help DL to exit bankruptcy. This will likely happen, as DL is one of Boeing's biggest customers. It will happen close to a bankruptcy exit though, likely not until early next year.

Jeremy


User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6648 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (8 years 3 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 16226 times:

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 12):
I could see DL ordering 50 787s as part of a financing deal with Boeing which would help DL to exit bankruptcy.

While some will disagree, I think that 25 or 30 out of those 50 787s might be the 787-3. While most Florida airports that Delta sends widebodies to can support the 787-8's wingspan, the main advantage of using the 787-3 over the 787-8 is that it does not have to use Concourse E at ATL. The 787-3's wingspan is capable of using Concourse T and Concourse A at ATL.

The 787s placed on domestic routes, whether it is the 787-3 or the 787-8, will likely have a different seating configuration from the international 787s. There is no point on having BusinessElite seating on domestic routes. If Delta chooses the 787-8 for domestic routes, they could perhaps put them in a somewhat flexible domestic seating configuration that is easily convertible to international config, similar to Delta's 767-400ERs.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4764 posts, RR: 44
Reply 14, posted (8 years 3 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 16163 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 13):
While some will disagree, I think that 25 or 30 out of those 50 787s might be the 787-3. While most Florida airports that Delta sends widebodies to can support the 787-8's wingspan, the main advantage of using the 787-3 over the 787-8 is that it does not have to use Concourse E at ATL. The 787-3's wingspan is capable of using Concourse T and Concourse A at ATL.

will not happen.



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineDAL767400ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 3 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 16041 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 13):

Damn dude, get over your obsession with the 787-3. Delta's focus is on longhaul flights. Domestic widebody flying is shrinking by the minute. Delta has more important things to spend money on than a range-restricted subfleet.


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 3 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 15268 times:

The reason a judge will not approve a new order is because the creditors will not support it.

DL has been very lucky at being able to spend hundreds of millions of dollars in BK to renovate terminals and airplanes and acquire used airplanes but the price tag for a large fleet of new widebody aircraft is much, much higher.

The creditors want DL to be able to emerge from BK successful and diversified but they are not going to let DL continue to spend billions of dollars on new equipment.

The real question is how much DL really needs, not necessarily what it wants. The 777LR will allow DL to begin service to Asia from its east coast strength markets but there isn’t a convincing argument that DL NEEDS those routes. DL is able to order a handful of LRs only because it has outstanding orders with Boeing.

It is far more likely that DL will be able to continue to grow but they will have to settle for used 757s, 767s, and maybe a handful of 777ERs if they can get their hands on them … in addition to a limited number of LRs that have comparable value to what DL had on order.

Aside from the revenue Boeing and GE would like from DL, they are far more likely to allow DL to buy a handful of LRs for delivery in the next couple years and then allow them in the 787 program in the early 2010s as well as having a stake in the new Boeing narrowbody. Remember that never bankrupt AA is taking very few new airplanes over the next few years and UA is taking even fewer. It’s hard to make the case for massive orders for DL particularly since it still has int’l growth capabilities far ahead of its peers by virtue of much less costly 767 conversions. Major Asian growth will have to be done with existing aircraft, used aircraft, or may just have to wait.


User currently offlineBrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4416 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (8 years 3 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 14827 times:

Quoting Glom (Reply 4):
DL is in Ch11. Can it order anything?

Yes, with the creditors approval and and the blessing of the bankruptcy court.

They have to prove that by ordering these planes that they will be able to emerge from bankruptcy in a better position then without them.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineUltrapig From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 590 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 3 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 14364 times:

As to what a Bankruptcy Judge would and would not do-

A Chapter 11 Debtor in Possession (Delta here) can do anything it wants in the "ordinary course" of its business. Thus it can sell tickets to retail customers. It can also order spare parts without court approval since presumable it always orders them. However the Debtors business is not buying and selling planes but flying them. Therefore it cannot buy new planes or make significant changes in existent orders without court approval because its not in the ordinary course of its business.

If the DIP (Delta) wants to do something outside of the ordinary course of business it must file a motion and give notice to all parties int he case.

The normal procedure here would be for the DIP's counsel to contact the main interest groups-Unsecured Creditors Committee-various bondholder groups and committees and the US Trustee and try to get consent to the motion prior to filing or after filing but before a hearing. If there is consent and not other creditor objects the hearing is perfunctory in that Bankruptcy Judges don't generally insert their own business opinion if all the parties are in agreement. If there is not consent or if a smaller creditor objects there is a hearing with evidence. The Court makes a decision based on what's in the best interest of the DIP and Creditors. Some judges may not want to approve a purchase or amendment to a purchase unless it is part of the actual Chapter 11 plan and some may feel otherwise.

While I haven't handled an airline Chapter 11 Case I've been involved in some big cases.

Keep in mind that in a Chapter 11 case a judge is just that- a judge who resolves disputes between various parties if there is no agreement. In 90% of the matters occurring in a Chapter 11 proceeding the parties agree on the facts and agree on the law so there is nothing for a judge to do. Alternatively there may be disagreement as to facts and or law but the parties may negotiate a settlement based on the strenght of their positions.


User currently offlineDeltaJet757 From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 243 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 years 3 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 13404 times:

This was recently discussed.


FLY DELTA JETS
User currently offlineDL Widget Head From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 2100 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (8 years 3 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 13368 times:

DL will have LR's on property in little over a year. The details of this will become clear in the fullness of time.

User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3599 posts, RR: 20
Reply 21, posted (8 years 3 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 13104 times:

Quoting DL Widget Head (Reply 20):
DL will have LR's on property in little over a year. The details of this will become clear in the fullness of time.

From your profile I will take this statement very seriously. Very exciting. Hope they can really use this to build up their operations to Asia and India.



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineDL Widget Head From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 2100 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (8 years 3 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 13066 times:

Quoting Centrair (Reply 21):
Hope they can really use this to build up their operations to Asia

Yes, Asia will see more DL service featuring these new LR's.


User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4782 posts, RR: 19
Reply 23, posted (8 years 3 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 13024 times:

I think the -LR is the 747SP of it's time.


The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlineDeltaSFO From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2488 posts, RR: 22
Reply 24, posted (8 years 3 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 13024 times:

I think the LR is the LR of its time.


It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
25 WorldTraveler : The LR is a niche airplane but it will be able to do some routes that no other airplane can do, esp for DL to Asia from ATL or JFK. There won't be alo
26 DL Widget Head : Agreed. The LR should be able to handle ATL-JNB w/o restrictions but the JNB-ATL leg might require minor restrictions due to the field elevation at J
27 WorldTraveler : Given the huge acquisition costs, I am doubtful that DL will try to operate it with a 777LR if they have to take a payload hit. They might as well use
28 DelawareUSA : The 777LR will not be the 747SP of its time. The A340-500 will be the low volume, gas guzzler per seat mile of this time.
29 BAW716 : It would not surprise me if DL changes its order to LRs. DL wants to fly some ultra long hauls out of ATL and possibly JFK and to do so, it will need
30 Post contains images Centrair : Now would those flights be increases from JFK or ATL? I can see JNB, ICN, HKG, and much of India on the radar for use. (Too bad I don't think they wi
31 DL Widget Head : You'll have to wait for a public announcement on the specifics but your postulating is logical.
32 Jumbojet : New Asia routes is not an automatic for Delta. Doesnt DL need to be awarded these Asian routes by Uncle Sam?
33 DAL767400ER : Orders already state otherwise. Only China. Most other Asian countries are fair game, providing you are able to get the necessary slots at the restri
34 Centrair : As DAL767400ER said, only china is restricted. HKG is fair game as it follows slightly different rules from the mainland DL already serves India so i
35 Mush : I fully agree with you WorldTraveler, what's the point of ordering an aircraft for a certain route if the aircraft can't make it with a full payload?
36 Alitalia744 : Close - but still missing a city...
37 WorldTraveler : ICN (Seoul) doesn't need an LR from anywhere in the US. KE has flown ATLICN w/ a 772ER. PEK doesn't need an LR either. PVG and south are where LR star
38 Centrair : Brain fart there. I give up...who/where...SYD from JFK?
39 Post contains images RJ111 : I find it odd that they want to add a new engine type, and a more expensive aircraft to the fleet (to buy and to operate) in the state they're in at t
40 Floridaflyboy : Why not? It might help if you could back up your "will not happen" claims. Do you have any reason for believing this?
41 1337Delta764 : The point is that the 787-3 would be more convienient for most domestic ops, with the possible exception of Hawaii. However, some users have claimed
42 Alitalia744 : Ding. Ding. Ding.
43 Stitch : International ops are the only bright spots for the domestic US carriers. If the 772LR will allow DL to launch new "monopolized routes" to Asia, Sout
44 LAXdude1023 : As ive said before, It is going to be really difficult to expand into Asia for Delta if the use ATL and JFK. They cant really go all out like they did
45 Post contains images DAL767400ER : Oh believe me, DL WILL be focusing on that route, but other than making a good route proposal and gathering support, there's not much they can do. Un
46 Panamair : Since losing the ATL-PEK bid the first time round, DL has been going to great lengths to drum up support, from setting up a PEK sales office to invit
47 Par13del : How are American's who live on the east coast travelling to Asia, say from NY and ATL? We are talking about the possibility of new a/c in the fleet, e
48 LAXdude1023 : Depends on where they are going. From New York you can get to most major cities in Asia Non stop, so I imagine thats what they do. From ATL, you can
49 Zone1 : If they are going to get the LR, they might as well send it over to SYD. They would be able to get most SkyTeam traffic in the Americas and would be
50 LAXdude1023 : I doubt that they will service it nonstop from ATL. I would bet money against it. I can definately see them going through another city, but not nonst
51 WorldTraveler : ??? What do you find so incredible about ICN not needing an LR? Name a route to the US where it is necessary. We still live in a representative democ
52 RwSEA : It's frequently been brought up on this board that ATL-SYD and JFK-SYD could happen with the 777LR, but I don't think the plane has the range to do e
53 LAXdude1023 : Agreed 100%. I think if they do serve SYD, it will be through LAX or HNL. I personally think that DL can take the drivers seat for India and Africa.
54 DAL767400ER : Well, ever since the result of the last route allocation for 2006, I have lost my believe in the DOT actually ever awarding a China route to Delta. D
55 Zone1 : I agree with you. Most of DL's chance of getting it rested on serving hundreds of cities without current one stop service to China. If AA gets to ser
56 LAXdude1023 : I would be shocked if they did get the route. I believe they can serve the route tomorrow if they want to. They would just have to take from ORD or S
57 RwSEA : Unfortunately, I think you may be right, and it makes no sense. There is absolutely no denying the fact that IAD is a much better match for this serv
58 LAXdude1023 : This is very true. People keep talking that there needs to be a direct connection to the South, when in truth niether DFW, IAH, or ATL or going to be
59 CHIFLYGUY : WT, the southeast can be very adequately served to China from DFW. I wouldn't hang my hat on the congressional delegation from the broader southeast
60 Panamair : While I certainly hope that DL gets the 2008 designation, I still believe that if AA were to get DFW-PEK this time round, DL will have a harder time
61 LAXdude1023 : I would love DL to get the route in 2008, but saying that ATL is the only airport that can effectively serve the Southeast is dead wrong. Im no fan o
62 Zone1 : It's really a toss up when it comes to DFW or ATL. Plenty of cities in the southeast would be closer to PEK going through ATL than DFW, and vice vers
63 DeltaSFO : Once again, people here insist on ignoring the fact that from most locations east of the Mississippi, flight distances are shorter to PEK over ATL tha
64 WorldTraveler : By your logic then DFW or IAH should never be awarded a route to Latin America or Europe since ATL is closer and provides most if not all of the conn
65 LAXdude1023 : First of ATL and IAH are about the same distance from most Latin American destinations. Second Geography is a very big factor for decideing routes. M
66 WorldTraveler : ATL is the only hub IN the SE that can sustain service to China. And while other hubs do provide service from the SE to the east, there would be no re
67 LAXdude1023 : This is very true. This makes no sense. How can there be adequete service through ORD for DFW but not ATL? (if you are not compareing ATL and DFW and
68 Papatango : Alot of rumors about a 777LR order but no offical announcement . When will it be announced?
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