SESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3522 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 16590 times:
Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 8): ...which no judge in his/her right mind would approve.
A judge may indeed approve it if it were part of a exit bankruptcy financing plan, similar to what US did with Airbus and the A350. I could see DL ordering 50 787s as part of a financing deal with Boeing which would help DL to exit bankruptcy. This will likely happen, as DL is one of Boeing's biggest customers. It will happen close to a bankruptcy exit though, likely not until early next year.
1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6847 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 16515 times:
Quoting SESGDL (Reply 12): I could see DL ordering 50 787s as part of a financing deal with Boeing which would help DL to exit bankruptcy.
While some will disagree, I think that 25 or 30 out of those 50 787s might be the 787-3. While most Florida airports that Delta sends widebodies to can support the 787-8's wingspan, the main advantage of using the 787-3 over the 787-8 is that it does not have to use Concourse E at ATL. The 787-3's wingspan is capable of using Concourse T and Concourse A at ATL.
The 787s placed on domestic routes, whether it is the 787-3 or the 787-8, will likely have a different seating configuration from the international 787s. There is no point on having BusinessElite seating on domestic routes. If Delta chooses the 787-8 for domestic routes, they could perhaps put them in a somewhat flexible domestic seating configuration that is easily convertible to international config, similar to Delta's 767-400ERs.
The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
Alitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4785 posts, RR: 43
Reply 14, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 16452 times:
Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 13): While some will disagree, I think that 25 or 30 out of those 50 787s might be the 787-3. While most Florida airports that Delta sends widebodies to can support the 787-8's wingspan, the main advantage of using the 787-3 over the 787-8 is that it does not have to use Concourse E at ATL. The 787-3's wingspan is capable of using Concourse T and Concourse A at ATL.
Damn dude, get over your obsession with the 787-3. Delta's focus is on longhaul flights. Domestic widebody flying is shrinking by the minute. Delta has more important things to spend money on than a range-restricted subfleet.
WorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 15557 times:
The reason a judge will not approve a new order is because the creditors will not support it.
DL has been very lucky at being able to spend hundreds of millions of dollars in BK to renovate terminals and airplanes and acquire used airplanes but the price tag for a large fleet of new widebody aircraft is much, much higher.
The creditors want DL to be able to emerge from BK successful and diversified but they are not going to let DL continue to spend billions of dollars on new equipment.
The real question is how much DL really needs, not necessarily what it wants. The 777LR will allow DL to begin service to Asia from its east coast strength markets but there isn’t a convincing argument that DL NEEDS those routes. DL is able to order a handful of LRs only because it has outstanding orders with Boeing.
It is far more likely that DL will be able to continue to grow but they will have to settle for used 757s, 767s, and maybe a handful of 777ERs if they can get their hands on them … in addition to a limited number of LRs that have comparable value to what DL had on order.
Aside from the revenue Boeing and GE would like from DL, they are far more likely to allow DL to buy a handful of LRs for delivery in the next couple years and then allow them in the 787 program in the early 2010s as well as having a stake in the new Boeing narrowbody. Remember that never bankrupt AA is taking very few new airplanes over the next few years and UA is taking even fewer. It’s hard to make the case for massive orders for DL particularly since it still has int’l growth capabilities far ahead of its peers by virtue of much less costly 767 conversions. Major Asian growth will have to be done with existing aircraft, used aircraft, or may just have to wait.
Ultrapig From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 596 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 14653 times:
As to what a Bankruptcy Judge would and would not do-
A Chapter 11 Debtor in Possession (Delta here) can do anything it wants in the "ordinary course" of its business. Thus it can sell tickets to retail customers. It can also order spare parts without court approval since presumable it always orders them. However the Debtors business is not buying and selling planes but flying them. Therefore it cannot buy new planes or make significant changes in existent orders without court approval because its not in the ordinary course of its business.
If the DIP (Delta) wants to do something outside of the ordinary course of business it must file a motion and give notice to all parties int he case.
The normal procedure here would be for the DIP's counsel to contact the main interest groups-Unsecured Creditors Committee-various bondholder groups and committees and the US Trustee and try to get consent to the motion prior to filing or after filing but before a hearing. If there is consent and not other creditor objects the hearing is perfunctory in that Bankruptcy Judges don't generally insert their own business opinion if all the parties are in agreement. If there is not consent or if a smaller creditor objects there is a hearing with evidence. The Court makes a decision based on what's in the best interest of the DIP and Creditors. Some judges may not want to approve a purchase or amendment to a purchase unless it is part of the actual Chapter 11 plan and some may feel otherwise.
While I haven't handled an airline Chapter 11 Case I've been involved in some big cases.
Keep in mind that in a Chapter 11 case a judge is just that- a judge who resolves disputes between various parties if there is no agreement. In 90% of the matters occurring in a Chapter 11 proceeding the parties agree on the facts and agree on the law so there is nothing for a judge to do. Alternatively there may be disagreement as to facts and or law but the parties may negotiate a settlement based on the strenght of their positions.