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TAM Creates Premium Business Class To MIA/JFK  
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11439 posts, RR: 58
Posted (8 years 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 17183 times:
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TAM confirmed today they will not offer First Class anymore to New York (effective September 29) and Miami (effective October 28), and also that they will create for these routes (MIA / JFK), two different Cabins will be available for sale:

- Premium Class: 18 seats (reservation class code "P")
Even comfortable seats than the C class standard seat, and passengers will receive additional comfort items like: earphone with noise reduction, necessaire with several items, slipper and a special blanket.

- Business Class: 24 seats (reservation class codes "C" , "J", "R" and "U")
Standard TAM Business Class Service (necessaire, a better blanket)

This is a minor change from 37 seats (7F 30C) to 42 (18P 24C). Let's see how they will looks like !

LHR and CDG flights will keep First Class Service and AA will be the winner on MIA and JFK routes as they will be the only one daily flight with first Class

Felipe


New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11701 posts, RR: 62
Reply 1, posted (8 years 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 17183 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
LHR and CDG flights will keep First Class Service and AA will be the winner on MIA and JFK routes as they will be the only one daily flight with first Class

Why can AA profitably fill up First Class while TAM can't? Is most of the premium traffic on these routes coming from the U.S. side.


User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8386 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (8 years 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 17158 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Look at some A330-200 BiZ Class configuration, KLM, and they have 18 J seats between the L1 & L2 doors. Sounds like TAM is ripping out the FIRST seats they have and going for a regular J and a Super J class.

User currently offlineFL370 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 252 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (8 years 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 17145 times:

which airplane are they instaling the seating config on?


fl370


User currently offlineJJMNGR From Brazil, joined May 2004, 1018 posts, RR: 15
Reply 4, posted (8 years 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 17065 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 1):
Why can AA profitably fill up First Class while TAM can't?

Sorry, but who told you AA is profitable on F? My wife worked years on AA and I travelled AA very much. Most of the time on F and I can guarantee you there were many other employees too.

F class product today is a comfort that who really uses are pax with a lot of mileage to spend, employees, etc...it is far away from being profitable.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32879 posts, RR: 71
Reply 5, posted (8 years 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 17060 times:

Quoting JJMNGR (Reply 4):
Sorry, but who told you AA is profitable on F? My wife worked years on AA and I travelled AA very much. Most of the time on F and I can guarantee you there were many other employees too.

F class product today is a comfort that who really uses are pax with a lot of mileage to spend, employees, etc...it is far away from being profitable.

AA is profitable on F. That's why they keep it to Sao Paulo and Buenos Aires. This move by TAM will help AA. AA was losing a lot of F customers to TAM.



a.
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11439 posts, RR: 58
Reply 6, posted (8 years 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 17052 times:
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Quoting Commavia (Reply 1):
Why can AA profitably fill up First Class while TAM can't? Is most of the premium traffic on these routes coming from the U.S. side.

Commavia, i believe TAM change was driven by the higher demand for C. For sure 42C are more valuable than 7F 30C at Brazil-US nowadays Business class ticket price level.

Business Class market to Europe (as well as First) is more competitive, while you can buy C ticket GIG-LIS-GIG for US$ 2,900 GIG-MIA-GIG is a US$ 4,200 ticket. And remember... MIA is closer.

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 2):
Look at some A330-200 BiZ Class configuration, KLM, and they have 18 J seats between the L1 & L2 doors. Sounds like TAM is ripping out the FIRST seats they have and going for a regular J and a Super J class.

Right. Tam use to place 7F and 6C seats between L1/L2 doors, probably the 7F will be replaced by 12C and the Premium Class will be just ahead of L2 door.

Quoting JJMNGR (Reply 4):
F class product today is a comfort that who really uses are pax with a lot of mileage to spend, employees, etc...it is far away from being profitable.

Agree 100%
At my bank, with 70,000 employees, only less than 30 have authority to fly First Class and 2,500 can fly Business (and fly more than the board). I'm sure other companies rule this way also. There is a very big market for C while F is very restricted.

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11701 posts, RR: 62
Reply 7, posted (8 years 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 17041 times:

Quoting JJMNGR (Reply 4):
Sorry, but who told you AA is profitable on F? My wife worked years on AA and I travelled AA very much.

AA still has it. If it wasn't profitable, they would have gotten rid of it or moved it out of markets where it could not be profitably marketed.


User currently offlineJog From Netherlands, joined Jul 2005, 273 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (8 years 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 16940 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
This is a minor change from 37 seats (7F 30C) to 42 (18P 24C). Let's see how they will looks like !

Well, I can tell you how they will look like, just as in MVB and MVC... They were always equipped like this already. I even doubt that any aircraft will get rid of its first class (at maximum one). Just all aircrafts coming back from Etihad didn't get any first class, they were just configured as the other PW powered. So we will have four out of the five MVA-MVE flying to the US without First class and the five newer MVF-MVL with First will fly to Europe (plus the last one of MVA-MVE on JJ8098/8099). On the 28th of October the two MIA aircrafts will just switch to London and two of the recently returned ones will take over MIA.

Why no First class to the US but to Europe? I guess, the killer argument are the daylight flights to MIA and probably from December also to JFK whereas all European flights are over night. It's probably much easier to sell Business class during the day than First class as there is not that much need for a private bed during day time. And instead of upgrading passengers for free, it is of course better to sell five more seats...


User currently offlineBrasuca From Brazil, joined Mar 2004, 717 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (8 years 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 16896 times:

I think I didn't get it right.
Will JJ maintain its seat config and just sell them at different prices or are they actualy going to reconfigure the aircraft?
I'm confused because there will still be three classes. So they're just relabelling it?



Varig, Varig, Varig
User currently offlineJog From Netherlands, joined Jul 2005, 273 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (8 years 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 16877 times:

Quoting Brasuca (Reply 9):
Will JJ maintain its seat config and just sell them at different prices or are they actualy going to reconfigure the aircraft?
I'm confused because there will still be three classes. So they're just relabelling it?

Seats will be as in PT-MVB/MVC for quite some time already. That means all 42 seats will be the same 180 degrees reclining seats in a 2-2-2 layout. The only difference is the service that will be offered for the 18 seats in front of door 2L compared to the service that is offered for the 24 seats behind door 2L. The service for the 24 seats behind door 2L seems to stay the same as today, the service for the seats in the front section seems to remain comparable to or slightly downgraded from today's First class service.


User currently offlineJJMNGR From Brazil, joined May 2004, 1018 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (8 years 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 16849 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 5):
AA is profitable on F. That's why they keep it to Sao Paulo and Buenos Aires. This move by TAM will help AA. AA was losing a lot of F customers to TAM.

Don´t agree. You are writing so confident that you might have figures. Would like to share these figures with you, otherwise I can not agree. It is not the fact AA is keeping F to Brazil that it means it is profitable. There may be much more with aircraft rotation inside the fleet (use the same to other destinations) than with profitability.

Airlines worldwide keep doing things and loosing money and they don´t know what they keep doing.


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11439 posts, RR: 58
Reply 12, posted (8 years 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 16821 times:
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FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting Jog (Reply 10):
Seats will be as in PT-MVB/MVC for quite some time already. That means all 42 seats will be the same 180 degrees reclining seats in a 2-2-2 layout. The only difference is the service that will be offered for the 18 seats in front of door 2L compared to the service that is offered for the 24 seats behind door 2L. The service for the 24 seats behind door 2L seems to stay the same as today, the service for the seats in the front section seems to remain comparable to or slightly downgraded from today's First class service.

Jog, the message i received from Tam is very clear and says the 18 front seats will be more comfortable than the 24 business seats after door 2L. Service (food and drink) will be the same for the 42 seats, the only other difference is the comfort items, more extensive for the 18 Premium Seats.

Quoting Jog (Reply 8):
I guess, the killer argument are the daylight flights to MIA and probably from December also to JFK whereas all European flights are over night. It's probably much easier to sell Business class during the day than First class as there is not that much need for a private bed during day time. And instead of upgrading passengers for free, it is of course better to sell five more seats...

Also fares, Business to Europe is an intermediate price although business class for the US (probably because DL and CO doesn't offer the service and AA offer only on 33% of it's routes) is expensive (DL charges US$ 7,000 for a R/T Business Class last minute ticket ATL-GIG, the same price you can buy a First Class seat to Europe). TAM will drop 7x US$ 7,200 in favor of 12x US$ 4,700, and i agree that the daily light use to be a killer (several times they upgrade C customers to F even on night flight JJ8090... including myself !). I took several daily-light with no one or only one customer at F while C is full (including Y upgrades). This change will give TAM more flexibility to charge even higher Y fares and i have no doubt the final revenue will increase 5 to 10%.

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineJog From Netherlands, joined Jul 2005, 273 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (8 years 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 16810 times:

Quoting JJMNGR (Reply 11):
AA is profitable on F. That's why they keep it to Sao Paulo and Buenos Aires. This move by TAM will help AA.

If TAM's move helps both TAM and AA, why not, at least they are partners...

TAM's First must definitely be superb (never had the pleasure). However, TAM probably did the math. Let's consider 4200USD for business class (the price mentioned by Felipe) and say TAM sells the First Class Seat for 9000 USD. Than the maximum you can earn if you sell all 7 seats is 63000 USD, whereas for 12 business class seats you get 50400 USD. But as soon as 3 of the 7 First class passengers in the old configuration are upgraded Business class passengers, you only earn 48600 USD, i.e. less than with the all business class configuration.

So, probably TAM has realized that the average demand on their First class (including the daylight flights) is lower than 5 seats, but they have no problems with overbooking their Business class.


User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8386 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (8 years 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 16810 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

It seems TAM is running short on Capacity, it needs a bigger airplane. I hope as some on this board have speculated that 6 777 are coming.

User currently offlineJog From Netherlands, joined Jul 2005, 273 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (8 years 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 16793 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 12):
Jog, the message i received from Tam is very clear and says the 18 front seats will be more comfortable than the 24 business seats after door 2L.

Ok, let's see... Maybe they put the blinds (they had for the first class in the beginning) back into service which is then the "added comfort" of the seat...

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Sunbird Photos by Don Boyd



Considering your calculations, keeping First would be even more wrong than with my calculation...


User currently offlineRojo From Spain, joined Sep 2000, 2455 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (8 years 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 16710 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 6):
At my bank, with 70,000 employees, only less than 30 have authority to fly First Class and 2,500 can fly Business (and fly more than the board). I'm sure other companies rule this way also. There is a very big market for C while F is very restricted.

At my bank, nobody is allowed to fly F unless J is full and you really need to go on that specific flight. We have a lot of people flying from GRU to JFK and MIA every week and they all fly J and Y.


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11439 posts, RR: 58
Reply 17, posted (8 years 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 16576 times:
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FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting Rojo (Reply 16):
At my bank, nobody is allowed to fly F unless J is full and you really need to go on that specific flight. We have a lot of people flying from GRU to JFK and MIA every week and they all fly J and Y.

Only CEO, Chairman, Members of the Board and VPs are authorized to fly F. All the other top staff only fly Business Class (and only flights over 6 hours). Others fly Y (an employee can fly C if the Y is full). In Brazil is very rare a company that authorizes First Class.

Quoting Jog (Reply 15):
Considering your calculations, keeping First would be even more wrong than with my calculation...

As myself you're a FF on Tam international routes and probably knows they overbooking Y and use the C class for the Red Fidelidade Customers. If the flight keep First Class, they even upgrade some C class customers with Red Fidelidade to First to create more room for overbooked Y. At MIA daily light it's very clear (and sometimes they overbook Y on JJ8090 at high fares and accommodate pax on the next day daily light C class)

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineJrosa From Brazil, joined Jun 2005, 367 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (8 years 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 16484 times:

I am not having a good experience with TAM and I do not consider Fidelidade, their frequent flyer program, a good one, in fact it is a crap!

I have 60k miles on Fidelidade and I will fly to JFK in two weeks, as I am flying by my own, I mean I am paying the ticket, I would like to buy Y and use my miles to upgrade to C, but TAM is charging me USD2400 plus 50k miles or USD4200 plus 30k miles, what the hell!

I am also a member of Smiles, Varig's FF program and I used to upgrade very frequently with a much more accessible fare and much less hassle.


User currently offlineMarcus380 From France, joined Feb 2006, 146 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 years 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 16434 times:

Quoting Jog (Reply 15):
Ok, let's see... Maybe they put the blinds (they had for the first class in the beginning) back into service which is then the "added comfort" of the seat...

Jog
the picture description that you inserdted looks wrong ,it looks like biz class
first class on TAM is like that:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © André Minatowicz



marcus


User currently offlineJJMNGR From Brazil, joined May 2004, 1018 posts, RR: 15
Reply 20, posted (8 years 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 16383 times:

Quoting Jrosa (Reply 18):
I am also a member of Smiles, Varig's FF program and I used to upgrade very frequently with a much more accessible fare and much less hassle.

Sorry but all this "flexibility" let them down!


User currently offlineJog From Netherlands, joined Jul 2005, 273 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (8 years 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 16344 times:

Quoting Marcus380 (Reply 19):
Jog
the picture description that you inserdted looks wrong ,it looks like biz class
first class on TAM is like that:

Marcus, the photo shows the old first class which was on TAM's first two A332 PT-MVA and MVB when they were delivered in 1998. At that time TAM had no 180 degrees reclining seats in Business class. The First class you showed can only be found on aircrafts PT-MVF to MVL. Until recently only PT-MVB and MVC of the older aircrafts were with TAM. TAM changed them some time ago to an all Business configuration with 180 degrees reclining seats that are similar to the former First class seats shown in the photo I posted. However, currently no blinds are installed between the seats. Both aircrafts are typically doing the JJ8098/8099 flights to Paris. PT-MVA, MVD and MVE remained until recently with Etihad and as far as I heard they kept the original configuration that I showed.

All three A332 came back to TAM during the last 2 months. So TAM had to decide what to do with the front of the cabin. The decision obviously went along with MVB and MVC, i.e. they decided to put no first class seats into the aircraft and rather keep the front configuration as it was before: a 3 times 2-2-2. Just the rear half of the business class changes from 6 times 2-2-2 to 4 times 2-2-2. Felipe mentioned that they announced an increased comfort in the front section compared to today's business class. Therefore I speculated that they just re-introduce the blinds that were kept in these three aircrafts until some weeks ago anyway and promote these as higher comfort (which it probably also is).

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 17):
As myself you're a FF on Tam international routes and probably knows they overbooking Y and use the C class for the Red Fidelidade Customers. If the flight keep First Class, they even upgrade some C class customers with Red Fidelidade to First to create more room for overbooked Y. At MIA daily light it's very clear (and sometimes they overbook Y on JJ8090 at high fares and accommodate pax on the next day daily light C class)

Well, different from you I am mainly flying on the CDG route and did not fly on the US routes so far. To/From CDG I did not observe a lot of upgrades from Y to C so far, though I saw some upgrades from C to F. But this is all aligned with our argumentation, that the decision to remove the First from the US flights are caused by quasi non-existent demand on First on the daylight flights which do not exist to Europe.

But let me add another hypothesis:
I am sure that TAM would not have made this decision if they haven't had to reconfigure MVA, MVD, and MVE anyway. They had to change the business class on these planes. They realized that it is probably easier to put the all business configuration there than the new First class. Therefore they started calculating if they couldn't fly them somewhere in an all business configuration as they currently do with MVB and MVC (where they had to make the same decision some time ago). Caused by this "problem" they started calculating the US routes with the highly increased business class fares and came up with some calculation like the ones we did before. And here they go. Maybe some people even started wondering why they aren't flying MVB/MVC to MIA for some time already. Sometimes it really is as JJMNGR said: sometimes people continue things just because no real problem occurs. We have these nice KPIs for this everywhere nowadays. You try ro do something against the red traffic lights, and observe the yellow ones. But things that per your KPI definition are running well are only checked by coincidence. So nobody is realizing that there is room for better results, just because there is no trigger to look for it.


User currently offlineJrosa From Brazil, joined Jun 2005, 367 posts, RR: 11
Reply 22, posted (8 years 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 16344 times:

Quoting JJMNGR (Reply 20):
Sorry but all this "flexibility" let them down!

However, if RG resumes its international routes I will be more than happy to be back flying with it, accruing miles and enjoying all this flexibility!


User currently offlineJJMNGR From Brazil, joined May 2004, 1018 posts, RR: 15
Reply 23, posted (8 years 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 16311 times:

Quoting Jrosa (Reply 22):
However, if RG resumes its international routes I will be more than happy to be back flying with it, accruing miles and enjoying all this flexibility!

I agree that from the consumer point of view you are right. And also agree with you that Fidelidade is not very good.


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11439 posts, RR: 58
Reply 24, posted (8 years 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 16304 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting Jrosa (Reply 18):
I have 60k miles on Fidelidade and I will fly to JFK in two weeks, as I am flying by my own, I mean I am paying the ticket, I would like to buy Y and use my miles to upgrade to C, but TAM is charging me USD2400 plus 50k miles or USD4200 plus 30k miles, what the hell!

Jose, i have the same problems! But decided to obtain the necessary points to obtain the tickets and not to use with upgrades.
Better to accrual 20K more and use 80K to "buy" a Business class ticket. I would never use my FF on TAM for an upgrade (just on South America routes where they ask for 5K only).
I could help you, send me a private message and i will explain how!

Quoting Jrosa (Reply 22):
However, if RG resumes its international routes I will be more than happy to be back flying with it, accruing miles and enjoying all this flexibility!

This is one of the reasons they use to overbook on Y, it's very easy to get an upgrade with Varig using FF miles. While TAM needs 25K/15K and Q or Y full fares for JFK/MIA, VARIG needs 15K and almost ALL fares. Seems that TAM protects their business class so much, and Varig has not so much C tickets sold.

Quoting Jrosa (Reply 18):
I would like to buy Y and use my miles to upgrade to C, but TAM is charging me USD2400 plus 50k miles or USD4200 plus 30k miles, what the hell!

At the rate paid by the "black" market, it's the same price of a C Promotional ticket. Better to buy a C ticket or to use 100% miles for a ticket.

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
25 Post contains images Jrosa : Finally we agreed about something!
26 Hardiwv : TAM business class (standard) is below-average and I would not recommend it to anyone. TAM premium business class is just what any top quality airlin
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