Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
2 More A319s From AtlasJet To Turkish Airlines  
User currently offlineWing From Turkey, joined Oct 2000, 1575 posts, RR: 24
Posted (8 years 3 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4582 times:

Our A320 family is having two more babybus'es in very near future.Atlas is reducing its fleet size due to its financial difficulties by giving up from the A319's,unfortunately B757's are in the line too  Sad According to an agreement between AtlasJet and THY the other 2 A319's are to be transferred to THY as a replacement of the RJ100's which left the company short while ago.2 other A319's which were built for Atlasjet are already flying in Turkish colors.

I -as apilot -am glad we are having more A319's as I really enjoy flying them.Its the most powerful member of our A320 family and its a real fun to play with it.

You can reach to my first A319 flight trip report here.

Pilot Report From My First A-319 Flight(pictures) (by Wing Aug 2 2006 in Trip Reports)


Widen your world
15 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineTK787 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4475 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (8 years 3 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4569 times:

Good for you and TK to have the extra option to substitute 319s if loads are smaller.
But hate to see KK reducing fleet size. I really enjoyed flying with them. What is the reason for their financial problems? Are they loosing money on int. or domestic routes?
Thanks


User currently offlineWing From Turkey, joined Oct 2000, 1575 posts, RR: 24
Reply 2, posted (8 years 3 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4544 times:

Quoting TK787 (Reply 1):
But hate to see KK reducing fleet size

Me too.Any company reduces fleet size means some of my friends are loosing their jobs.I hate seeing that.

Quoting TK787 (Reply 1):
What is the reason for their financial problems? Are they loosing money on int. or domestic routes?

Only they can know for sure but as I heard they were concentrating to domestic after the ÖGER's brake up with the company and there is a fierce competition in the domestic market in Turkey.Pegasus promotes its domestic 25 YTL flights as Onur retaliates with 1 YTL promotion during Ramadan month.Survival of the fittest I guess.



Widen your world
User currently offlineFly-K From Germany, joined May 2000, 3162 posts, RR: 51
Reply 3, posted (8 years 3 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4457 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Atlasjet plans to get 12 A320 from AerCap to harmonize the fleet and replace all existing A319/320 and 757. The CRJ900s will stay, however.


Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been...
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26150 posts, RR: 50
Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4449 times:

For better or worse, the entire Atlasjet business plan changed with German Oger Holdings selling their stake in the carrier. From primarily focusing on European and international flying the carrier has shifted to mostly domestic flying under their new majority owners.

Clearly the fierce domestic competition is having an effect on the carrier. Very much a shame as Atlasjet was the best placed Turkish carriers to challenge THY in the international arena with a strong and innovative quality product.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 5, posted (8 years 3 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4440 times:

I doubt a sole focus on Turkish domestic flights will allow an airline like Atlasjet to survive...
Yields on International flights are better and-although competetive- the market allows for more redundant networks as compared to inner-Turkey flights.
I am sorry to say but to me that's a bad decision.



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineCRJ900 From Norway, joined Jun 2004, 2234 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (8 years 3 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4432 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I read here on a.net some weeks ago that AtlasJet has 7 options for the CRJ900/900X. Will they take those aircraft? 90 seats must be easier to fill than 120+ seats...


Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26150 posts, RR: 50
Reply 7, posted (8 years 3 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4397 times:

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 5):
Yields on International flights are better and-although competetive- the market allows for more redundant networks as compared to inner-Turkey flights.

Actually you'd be suprised that the AtlasJet yields(RASM) on domestic routes were higher than international services primarily due to the stage lenght variance. Remember internationally they were primarily a LCC / Charter operation drawing bottom of the barrel prices. Hence the urge to pile on additional domestic flying over international flights once the carrier lost its primary European feed and marketing which was drivern by former German owners Oger Holdings.

Domestic traffic in Turkey has mushroomed incredibly these last few years, nearly doubling every other year! There as a result have been a massive rush of new carriers in the market, and most recently with some offering Ryanair style pricing which will in the near term turn the market into potential blood bath.

Another entrant will be THY with its 'Turkish Express' LCC style operation which will launch after the new year from SAW. It will be interesting if THY manages to effectively use this operation to combat the many Turkish LCCs, or if it will instead serve to cannibalise and hurt THY mainline operations?

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 6):
Will they take those aircraft? 90 seats must be easier to fill than 120+ seats...

The RJs might be wonderful to serve small markets, however going against mainline equipment they are disadvantaged with their high per seat cost.
Seems Atlasjet might realise this the hard way in the year to come.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineTurkishWings From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1453 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (8 years 3 months 22 hours ago) and read 4346 times:

Personally, I took Atlasjet 3 times in the last couple of months. The planes were always full and the prices were definetly not MUCH lower than those of TK but still more expensive than crap Onur Air. KK's service is almost the same as TK's and I have the feeling that the seat pitch is more generous. Only yesterday, I flew KK from ECN (Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus) to IST. Very very comfortable flight with a load factor of almost 100 %. It will be nice to see the 319s in TK's colors though  Smile

Anyone remember Istanbul Airlines? They were doing relatively well with their charters until they started scheduled flights. Soon after, they were bankrupt. I remember in 2000, when I was an F/A with TK, we did a couple of their flights (IST-CDG-ADB-IST overnight for example). I hope the same doesn't happen to KK.



Coffee - Tea or Me?
User currently offlineStylo777 From Germany, joined Feb 2006, 3023 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (8 years 3 months 2 hours ago) and read 4255 times:

bad news for KK! Atlasjet was the first Turkish airline ever operating an A319... But I am sure that they will go for more A320's and CRJ's as well. I think the mixture of these to aircrafts is very good to operate within Turkey. Major airport could be served by the Airbus and relativley smaller airports like Edremit, Usak or Siirt with CRJ equipment. And for charter flights KK could use the B757 and not needed A320 frames.

Btw. where are their leased CRJ-700's? Back to the lessor or still operating because I didn't see them for a while.


User currently onlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 10003 posts, RR: 15
Reply 10, posted (8 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4168 times:

I wasn't aware AtlasJet was in such a bad shape. I remember reading here that AtlasJet was rumoured to start longhaul flights to the U.S. (JFK/ORD?) with the A340-300. Will this not happen anymore? I still find it interesting (but not surprising) that there is only one Turkish airline for such a big country that flies longhaul. Is there no room for a second international Turkish airline?

A388


User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26150 posts, RR: 50
Reply 11, posted (8 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4160 times:

Turkey certainly does have room for a 2nd international airline, and Atlasjet was the best placed to challenge THY.

The carrier was within weeks of signing for A340s last winter that would serve both the US and popular Asian destinations such as Thailand. The carriers new majority owner with the loss of their primary European sales outlet Oger Tours instead opted to refocus the company on the booming deregulated domestic market which has seen 140% growth in the last 3 years.

On its own this was an ok decision as Atlasjet domestic flights at the time were very well received and also had built an impressive list of carriers such as BA which would connect to Atlasjet over feeding TK's domestic services.
This summer however has seen the domestic market turn into a real battle field with carriers offering Ryanair style 1 Lira fares.
Things will likely turn even more interesting one THY launches its own SAW based domestic LCC dubbed Turkish Express after the new year.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineWing From Turkey, joined Oct 2000, 1575 posts, RR: 24
Reply 12, posted (8 years 2 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 4119 times:

Quoting Fly-K (Reply 3):
Atlasjet plans to get 12 A320 from AerCap to harmonize the fleet and replace all existing A319/320 and 757

This indeed doesn't fit exactly what I hear around here.As far as I know A319's and some of the 320's they fly are brand new from factory,giving them away for a batch of second hand airplanes doesn't sound logical to me.We also have pilots who transfered from Atlas to TK since they felt their job is not secure as the airplanes are out of the fleet.If they were planning to add airplanes to the fleet they wouldnt let the pilots to leave since its very very hard to find rated pilots in Turkey nowadays.

My opinion about Atlas was they were trying to bring quality to the market.With the competition they were forcing the others to follow.But in a market you should know your rivals good .If you are reducing prices(means giving away from some of your profit) you shoud think that others can hold their breath longer than you.
Onur for example owns its domestic fleet(the MD88's)Atlas has to pay lease every month,Onur flies Hadj flights with A300s brings very big amount of money,Pegasus lease aircraft to all around the world to bring in "hot money".

Atlas on the other hand made an "early" (I don't think wrong but early) decision of trying to be the second "scheduled" carrier in Turkey.They were planning to expand their European flights to be scheduled also instead of being a holiday charter.But Öger didn't like the idea since he has tons of tourists to fly between Europe and Turkey.(For those unfamilar Öger Holidays is one steady income of hot money as it is one of the biggest Tourism agents sells holidays to Turkey,it was the life blood of Ýstanbul Airlines back then and it was the life blood of Atlas until it becomes powerful enough to handle being only a scheduled carrier.

As they loose this life blood now its very hard to survive with only domestic market with these prices at the lowest.Onur and Pegasus has their advantages against Atlas at the moment.

Interestingly beginning of this year Turkish Express was spoken more around the pilots but the Transport minister suspended the project with the pressure form the rivaling LCC's.I havent heard much from it since then.If the project is back on track I will be one of the most happy because what I heard was the 737400's were to be based to SAW and fly from there this will save me from the torture of driving from ATatürk airport to SAW twice a week in the crazy Ýstanbul traffic.

How will Turkish Express will be effecting the market?Not really worst as many may be expecting.Because THY flies all economy flights with very low on board service from SAW with really cheap prices allready.A change of name will not fiercely effect the serious carriers like Onur,Atlas and Pegasus.

The others which I call "Gecekondu" airlines which has 1 or 2 aircraft and change name and livery after every season should either fit in the competition rules or better disappear.Because many of them only adds really bad reputation to Turkey and its aviation.



Widen your world
User currently offlineRobcol99 From Turkey, joined Jun 2004, 294 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (8 years 2 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 4061 times:

I don't want to hijack this thread, but I guess I can comment on KK's "problems".

Because of what I do for a living (i deal with business models), I guess I can say, that KK's business model is vulnerable, especially after they parted away from Oger.

Turkey has one big legacy carrier, with very strong branding, and dedicated customers. Turkey has two real LCCs, one is quite "a la turca", that is very Turkish in the way they do things, Onur, and the other, EasyJet like Pegasus.

Onur directly aims at the "bus crowd" in Turkey. Medium-low income citizens, that do not care about service on board, that dont care about all the internet services etc. The only concern for this market is price, as long as they fly cheap, they'd fly, otherwise they'd take the bus. Onur uses second hand aircraft in high density configuration (i.e. charter aircraft), hence they can perform dual international charter and low cost domestic ops.

Pegasus targets a different segment; a segment that is very price-sensitive, yet cares about service, promptness, value-added services (internet check-in etc.).

They are all legitimate business models. Now, what is KK's business model?
Are they LCC? Are they legacy?
Some forty percent of their operations were charter last year, but they have a customer legacy system called Jetmil. They are using CRJs, which have a higher per seat operational expenses, but they charge less than Turkish (flying a 734/320 at a min) on the same route.
They have a business class, (called Club Class) but no lounges, no special amenties etc are offered.
They first said that they will fly intercontinental, now their plan is A320s and CRJs.
What I am saying is that they need to make up their minds. (that's my opinion at least)


If they want to be like TAM in Brazil or Aegean in Greece (this is the closest model I can relate to), that is perfectly fine, but there's one problem:

Unlike TAM or Olympic, Turkish is doing good.


User currently onlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 10003 posts, RR: 15
Reply 14, posted (8 years 2 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3986 times:

Wow, Wings and Robcol99, very nice posts. I now have a better understanding of the Turkish aviation. Excellent explanation! Cok tessekür ederim! Am I saying it correctly?  Smile

A388


User currently offlineFly-K From Germany, joined May 2000, 3162 posts, RR: 51
Reply 15, posted (8 years 2 months 4 weeks ago) and read 3976 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Two very good analyses! Just two comments:

Quoting Robcol99 (Reply 13):
Unlike TAM or Olympic, Turkish is doing good.

You probably mean Varig, not TAM?

Quoting Wing (Reply 12):
This indeed doesn't fit exactly what I hear around here.As far as I know A319's and some of the 320's they fly are brand new from factory,giving them away for a batch of second hand airplanes doesn't sound logical to me

I believe these will be new A320s as their aim is to get rid of the many different versions (engines etc) they are flying now.



Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been...
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
More Connections From PHX To Europe? posted Thu May 5 2005 13:59:07 by JoyA380B747
A319s From Canada To Europe posted Tue Jan 22 2002 13:29:18 by Matt
Turkish Airlines To OSL From Winter 2004! posted Mon Jun 14 2004 10:53:54 by Vadheim
Turkish Airlines Start Code Share To ISB(Pakistan) posted Sun Jun 25 2006 14:21:20 by 777way
Turkish Airlines Sells 5 737s To A Leasing Firm posted Tue Jun 6 2006 20:48:34 by Bahadir
International Airlines To/from JFK To Europe posted Thu May 11 2006 03:32:30 by Pwm2txlhopper
Which Airlines Switched From Boeing To Airbus? posted Tue Mar 7 2006 12:38:25 by Cedars747
Turkish Airlines To Dublin posted Thu Feb 23 2006 11:17:59 by N272WA
Turkish Airlines Made Emergency Landing To BUD posted Mon Dec 5 2005 16:12:39 by Emrecan
New Midwest Airlines Service From MCI To Florida posted Tue Oct 18 2005 16:51:57 by MidEx717