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More About A380 Delays  
User currently offlineKatekebo From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 702 posts, RR: 6
Posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 10467 times:

As the other two threads are getting very long and take time to load, I would like to start a new thread.

Two articles called my attention:
" Airbus faces delay costs but not cancellation"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060922...linecompanyairbuseads_060922114429

Quote:
New delays expected for the A380 superjumbo airliner are a blow to Airbus after a production crisis three months ago but are unlikely to cause customers to cancel orders....
....Analyst Scott Babka at Morgan Stanley said that the biggest danger for Airbus was knock-on effects elsewhere in its business.
"Real risk from here is that the A380 delays start to affect Airbus' competitiveness across the rest of its portfolio," said Babka in a research note Friday.
He explained that this could happen if "further delays on the superjumbo tie up resources and impede Airbus' ability to compete and introduce new products in other segments of the market". ...
....each A380 required 40,000 hours of re-work, which he said would result in an incremental cost of 1.6 million euros (2.1 million dollars) per aircraft.
Babka estimated that each of the first 100 planes delivered would also be discounted by an additional 5.0 million euros as compensation for the new delays. ....
....In London, the Financial Times reported that "the spectre of order cancellations is hanging over Airbus" and an unnamed analyst quoted in fellow British paper The Daily Telegraph made a similar suggestion. ....

"Maseu Wants Airbus A380 Purchase Cancelled"
http://www.bernama.com/bernama/v3/news_lite.php?id=221419

Quote:
The Malaysia Airlines System Employees Union (Maseu) has urged Penerbangan Malaysia Bhd (PMB), the holding company of Malaysia Airlines (MAS) to cancel its purchase of Airbus A380 aircraft whose delivery have again been delayed.

Conflicting reports are flying, but I think some cancellations are imminent, nonetheless as the delays can be used by some airlines whose growth plans have not materialized as a pretext to avoid getting an airplane they will have hard time filling up with passengers.

In my opinion the biggest challenge will be cashflow over the next 2-3 years to fund the development of the A350 while ironing out A380 production issues and paying BAE. This may force Airbus to slow down the development of the A350 which would allow Boeing to grab an even bigger share of the mid-size segment. The A320E may be another "victim" with a 1-2 yeards delay.

127 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDrExotica From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 176 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 10424 times:

I am curious about the figure of 40,000 hours of rework per plane - first, this seems like a huge number. How many people at once can be inside the aircraft cargo hold, etc. in order to rework/reroute the wiring? Also, assigning a cost of $2.1M to the 40K hours of labor seems small (i.e., $50/hour). Once benefits, etc. are factored in, I would have guessed that the cost would have been much higher.


N707PA - Best looking commercial aircraft ever.
User currently offlineTinkerBelle From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 10397 times:

Interesting read. Who else would cancel their orders though? All the airlines that have ordered the whalejet NEED it except for maybe EK. There was a rumor that VS might cancel their order too but I think that's bologne too. Let's just wait and see ut I do think MH will cancel their order but only as a scapegoat (Thanx Jacobin)  wink .

User currently offlineKatekebo From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 702 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 10366 times:

EK could cancel some.

UPS and FedEx.

Korean, Thai, Qantas - I think these airlines see A380 more as replacement airplane of their existing capacity, than growth.


User currently offlineRJ111 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 10320 times:

Man, I have usually defended Airbus on this site, but they've really screwed up this time. Four major delays is terrible! 7 years is an awfully long time for one aircraft, no matter how big it is. There appears to have been some very poor project management and i just hope it doesn't cost them too heavily in the long term.

User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 5, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 10225 times:

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 4):
Man, I have usually defended Airbus on this site, but they've really screwed up this time. Four major delays is terrible! 7 years is an awfully long time for one aircraft, no matter how big it is. There appears to have been some very poor project management and i just hope it doesn't cost them too heavily in the long term.

It was a majour screw up, but it seems its a continuation of the previous screw up....lets see what happens when the Big Beast starts flying.....maybe it will be on bad nightmare for Airbus but a serious learning experience on multiple levels.....

Quoting TinkerBelle (Reply 2):
Let's just wait and see ut I do think MH will cancel their order but only as a scapegoat (Thanx Jacobin)  Wink .

u're welcome..... Wink



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 6, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 10176 times:

While the numbers do seem a bit strange, it almost seems as if someone has worked out what to do. That would be positive news.

I guess the negatives are that it does not say when the 40,000 hours will produce something, or how fast the next one can be done. If the workforce is in the hundreds, it will still take some weeks, and how many fixer gangs could they muster? It sounds like the start of one of those stories, how many (usually Irishmen, sorry there Tlse) does it take to .....


User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 23
Reply 7, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 10172 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 5):
It was a majour screw up, but it seems its a continuation of the previous screw up...

Indeed, looks like the previous management was a little optimistic when announcing the new delivery schedule, and Mr. Streiff now has to take the hot potatoes out of the fire.

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 3):
UPS and FedEx.

Korean, Thai, Qantas - I think these airlines see A380 more as replacement airplane of their existing capacity, than growth.

Curious why you think so. None of those have ever made any statement regarding a possible review of their A380 order since the delays announced in june, with the exception of QF and KE IIRC. After QF took satisfaction with the compensation offered, they even took time to praise the A380. As far as KE is concerned there were reports that they would convert options into firm orders.



SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 23
Reply 8, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 10131 times:

Quoting Baroque (Reply 6):
If the workforce is in the hundreds, it will still take some weeks

Indeed 40000 hours is not half as much as it sounds. If they were to be working 7 days a week 24 hours a day, and they have all reason to do so, it would take 100 people 17 days, 50 people 34 days and 180 days (6 months) will be needed if they only put 10 persons at it.



SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
User currently offlineWINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2831 posts, RR: 68
Reply 9, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 10023 times:

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 3):
EK could cancel some.

UPS and FedEx.

Korean, Thai, Qantas - I think these airlines see A380 more as replacement airplane of their existing capacity, than growth.

I believe that Airbus will have less issues with the A380F. Wiring will not be much of a headache on the Freighter.

Regards,
Wings



Aviation Is A Passion.
User currently offlinePolymerPlane From United States of America, joined May 2006, 991 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 9925 times:

Quoting WINGS (Reply 9):
I believe that Airbus will have less issues with the A380F. Wiring will not be much of a headache on the Freighter.

Regards,
Wings

I am curious whether the wiring issue is on the the primary flight control wiring, i.e. important for engine control and FBW, or for the IFE.

How far along is the A380F development, and how long has it been delayed?

Cheers,
PP



One day there will be 100% polymer plane
User currently offlineHb88 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2005, 814 posts, RR: 31
Reply 11, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 9862 times:

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 10):
I am curious whether the wiring issue is on the the primary flight control wiring, i.e. important for engine control and FBW, or for the IFE.

How far along is the A380F development, and how long has it been delayed?

As far as I know, the wiring issue is only relevant to the IFE and other in-cabin systems, not control/engine/flight etc systems. Also as far as I know, the 380F isn't affected significantly.


User currently offlineBoomBoom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 9823 times:

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 10):
I am curious whether the wiring issue is on the the primary flight control wiring, i.e. important for engine control and FBW, or for the IFE.



Quote:
Airbus is blaming the delays on the complexity of installing the miles of wiring in each of the double-decker planes. The wires are bundled in harnesses that are strung through the aircraft, controlling in-flight entertainment, lights, air conditioning and the plane's operating systems.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/busine....html


User currently offlineShenzhen From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 1710 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 9823 times:

Quoting Hb88 (Reply 11):
As far as I know, the wiring issue is only relevant to the IFE and other in-cabin systems, not control/engine/flight etc systems. Also as far as I know, the 380F isn't affected significantly.

What I find interesting about the IFE being the source of all the problems is...

IFE is Buyer Furnished Equipment. If the Airlines provided Airbus with IFE equipment that didn't meet the airplanes specification, then why would Airbus need to compensate the Airline at all. It is their equipment, and as such, they should seek compensaton from the OEM whom the contracted the equipment.

Any ideas anyone???

Cheers


User currently offlineHb88 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2005, 814 posts, RR: 31
Reply 14, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 9790 times:

Quoting Shenzhen (Reply 13):
What I find interesting about the IFE being the source of all the problems is...

IFE is Buyer Furnished Equipment. If the Airlines provided Airbus with IFE equipment that didn't meet the airplanes specification, then why would Airbus need to compensate the Airline at all. It is their equipment, and as such, they should seek compensaton from the OEM whom the contracted the equipment.

Any ideas anyone???

I think the basic in-aircraft network structure is standard while the specific end-user IFE fitout is indeed dependent on the particular carrier and OEM who supply it.


User currently offlineShenzhen From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 1710 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 9718 times:

I just don't see Airbus taking the hit for IFE euipment that interferes with the airplane systems, or doesn't work as promised.

Remove the equipment (or don't install), deliver the airplane, and compensate the airlines for the cost of installing the equipment.

Let the Airline and IFE OEM certify the equipment on their airplane (or on an airline airplane at Airbus, after delivery) and get the production moving.

Why should Airbus take serveral billions of dollars worth of write offs if it isn't their fault.

Puzzling.....

Cheers


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 9700 times:

which IFE does do the first A380s use? Panasonic or Thales?

User currently offlinePygmalion From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 966 posts, RR: 38
Reply 17, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 9654 times:

Though I normally don’t cross post…. I am going to copy over a response I made on another thread. Airbus troubles are integration issues.

Snippet:

Quoting Pygmalion, another thread:
...it bears repeating. I heard from an excellent source that the issue is the lack of coordination of designs between Hamburg, Spain and Toulouse. They all have different CAD and config database software and did NOT do sole source digital pre-assembly. Thus the wiring space allocations used by Toulouse for IFE and late install wiring ( read customer specific) did not match the reserved space left for it in Hamburg etc. Hamburg did not know that Toulouse used space for a bundle and used it for other structure... Toulouse did not know that the space it thought it had for wires had something else in it. Thus.... SIA specific wires cant go in as the space is used for something else. Toulouse is using early build aircraft as a mock-up to reroute bundles and get things installed. Those new designs need to then be routed back to Hamburg so they can get the other airframes to comply.. all of this do and redo takes time. In the old days, airframers built mockups for this snarly process. This was supposed to be a digital mock up but Airbus dropped the ball and didn't do the job. They are now catching up. They need to do a baseline delivery configuration. Get it working and then incorporate all of those changes on every other SIA unit and then they certify the baseline airplane. You not only need to design a certifiable aircraft, you have to get a certification that you can repeatably build and conform that certified design. Once you miss... it is very painful to catch back up.

There is a great couple of A380 CAD screen photos on Scotts column on Leeham.net showing the wiring complexity



Quoting Pygmalion:
Airbus had a new integration software package called ACE (Airbus Concurrent Engineering) to address the config integration issues that was supposed to be full up and in use on the A380. It didn't happen. Much like the 747-400 intro raised to a whole new order of magnitude, Airbus got bit hard by the integration flu. Now you see why Airbus is going back to an earlier aircraft for Certification proving flights. The later one has lost config control and will take too long to get conformed to the Singapore baseline. So Airbus is going back to an earlier airframe to certify and then they will cert changes from that base line.

I'll throw a bone to the Airbus crowd here. One point that should be made is that the integration issues are a startup problem but a BIG startup problem. Bad planning up front, lack of coordination equals production nightmares. Once they get a baseline that meets the goals and can be certified, they can build a recovery plan and get back on track. This typically is a much lesser issue as you go forward as you only need to integrate changes instead of the whole new airplane. So even though they are killing their working relationship with the customer base and spending big dollars to get it under control... they should be out of the woods after 15-20 airframes and they get a stable production system going. This will for sure delay the payback on R&D spending and it will not be cheap. We are talking 100's of millions of dollars of recovery spending not to mention payments to customers or folks like Emirates that can now decide to permanently delay out year deliveries if they think they ordered too much lift. The leadership gang at Airbus that allowed this to happen are rightfully being terminated with extreme prejudice. I have no knowledge of this in fact but I wouldn't be surprised if this was also the root of some of the A345-6 startup issues too in a smaller way.

Another point... The same ACE software was too be used on integrating the A400M... and its not in full up use yet. So we might see A400M integration issues too or at least much increased funding to do it manually. Hopefully they are learning their lessons. Rumor is that it will be full up for the A350X.... hopefully. After the A380 debacle, one would think that they will go all out and get 'er done.


User currently offlinePygmalion From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 966 posts, RR: 38
Reply 18, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 9643 times:

so anywho... I dont think its the IFE in and of itself... its the integration of the customized wiring and systems (or lack there of) that is causing the problem. If it was the IFE itself, they could always deliver with it tagged out and complete and cert it later.

User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 9643 times:

Quoting Keesje (Reply 16):
which IFE does do the first A380s use? Panasonic or Thales?

...To date Thales has announced A380 orders for the i-5000 from Air France, Malaysia Airlines and Etihad Airways...Panasonic's A380 announced customers to date include Emirates, EVA Air and Qantas. A380 launch customer Singapore Airlines has selected Panasonic IFE hardware for all its previous aircraft, although it has not revealed its IFE system selection...

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...he+Airbus+A380+and+Boeing+787.html


User currently offlineHb88 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2005, 814 posts, RR: 31
Reply 20, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 9622 times:

Quoting Pygmalion (Reply 17):
Though I normally don’t cross post…. I am going to copy over a response I made on another thread. Airbus troubles are integration issues.

.
.
[snip]
.

Thanks Pygmalion, very good post.


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 21, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 9603 times:

Quoting Keesje (Reply 16):
which IFE does do the first A380s use? Panasonic or Thales?

...To date Thales has announced A380 orders for the i-5000 from Air France, Malaysia Airlines and Etihad Airways...Panasonic's A380 announced customers to date include Emirates, EVA Air and Qantas. A380 launch customer Singapore Airlines has selected Panasonic IFE hardware for all its previous aircraft, although it has not revealed its IFE system selection...

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...he+Airbus+A380+and+Boeing+787.html

p.s.-thanks Leelaw... Smile



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineShenzhen From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 1710 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 9556 times:

So in a nutshell, it isn't the IFE itself, but possibly the intigration of the varying systems throughout the entire airplane.

If this is true, then I really feel sorry for the first operators of this airplane, becuase there will be delays out the ying yang trying to figure out if a maintenace type message it truly a fault, or just bad intigration/timing between systems causing the messages.

Airlines will need to put teams on tracking mod levels to all the various system boxes to ensure that they can still talk with each other after the numerous change that will take place after delivery.

The idea of a few wires running down seat tracks (a little more at purser stations) seems like a much better problem.

As a passenger, my biggest question would be ...... Will the toilet flush????


Cheers


User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 9518 times:

Quoting Pygmalion (Reply 17):
Though I normally don’t cross post…. I am going to copy over a response I made on another thread. Airbus troubles are integration issues.

Kind of interesting stuff.
Course you know I came out of the MD11 program. We had our fuckups for sure, but never anything of this magnitude. What we did have was some crackerjack engineers doing fixes right alongside the aircraft, and we in the quality assurance/first article and development inspection world had a direct pipeline right to the responsible people in design.
I did the first article inspection on the MD11 cargo doors on 447. There were some paper work issues involved that needed clarification and I was able to converse on the phone right with the people directly responsible for design engineering and get a disposition followed up with an EO in a matter of half an hour.

That sort of lateral and vertical coordination may be something that is missing here......


User currently offlinePygmalion From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 966 posts, RR: 38
Reply 24, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 9463 times:

I think they assumed it was better than it was... when the parts get to final assy and parts are to be installed in same space volume... its way late to fix with a phone call. Tolerance, minor rides, fastener locations... those have fairly simple remedies... out of sync configs and no space to route bundles that arrive cut to finished lengths... its a "go back to the boards", build new bundles and retry and hope another part doesn't come along to be installed in the same space later.

[Edited 2006-09-22 20:44:09]

25 DAYflyer : I would have thought that part of the cost Airbus is going to have to eat on this would be passed along to the IFE company....
26 NYC777 : Why? The IFE was supplied on time and according to specs. It more that there has been extremely poor managment regarding the installation of the IFE
27 Katekebo : If the IFE equipment was the cause of the delay, Airbus would be screeming left and right blaming the IFE supplier. The reason they are keeping so li
28 Stitch : I have noted on many occasions that none of the larger customers (10 or more frames) are likely to cancel their A380 committments. MH has been rumore
29 Dougloid : I tend to agree, but my guess is that the evil had to be in thinking everything was on remote control, and no feedback system to relay small problems
30 Post contains images KaiGywer : So any LH A380s won't be affected either?
31 Glareskin : Good point! I guess 555 doodies won't fit in the toilets. And taking them out to bring back to your seat doesn't seem like a good idea either.. Pictu
32 Post contains images Glareskin :
33 Ken777 : I seem to remember reading a while back that there is somewhat of a culture at Airbus where employees don't communicate problems upwards. It hit me a
34 Shenzhen : What Airbus need in the near future is a strike. I suggest that the new management put forth a new contract to any and all unions that decreases their
35 Jrebel : Whalebus? It is beginning to sound like Wailbus! Johan
36 NYC777 : What's very troubling to me is that they need another 4 weeks to understand the extent of the new delay If it was just a month or two they would have
37 Post contains images DIA : BTW, isn't it about time the first A380 frame is due for a "heavy D" and a repaint?
38 Texfly101 : The IFE doesn't include the wiring harnesses. Those are the responsibility of the airframe manufacturer. Also when you change a harness bundle, you n
39 Keesje : thnx Leelaw for the info / link IFE has been a headache for two decades. BA (MDDS), Boeing (777; Marconi), KLM (Philips/ BEA), LH (Rockwell) all have
40 YULWinterSkies : Do you mean earth shaking? In that case, I'm afraid that Seattle would be much more at risk than Toulouse...
41 Neverest : Airbus new CEO Christian Streiff belongs to what is considered as France’s industrial elite (X-Mines). If he lives up to expectations he should be a
42 Post contains links Leelaw : It didn't take long for Richard Aboulafia to offer a pithy quip regarding the latest delay afflicting the botched industrial ramp-up of the A380 progr
43 Comorin : Was this software developed in-house? I remember McDonnell (which begat MCAUTO) wrote its own CAD and PM software that was best of breed back in the
44 Post contains images Stitch : IFE is a competitive point, especially for long-haul customers like SQ, LH, QF, CX, and others. So the desire to outdo each other no doubt spurs thes
45 EbbUK : Not on your nelly. A dead Airbus is of no use to more people than we know, including Seattle. Expect Airbus to extend credit terms with suppliers, if
46 Jacobin777 : Its 2 a.m. in the UK innit?
47 Coa747 : I think it is obvious from the latest delay that Airbus didn't spend enough time getting the bugs ironed out in the hardware before they started to de
48 Post contains images Zvezda : I think that was made up by some A.netters. I can't find any Airbus statements that support it. Airbus always says it's wiring.
49 BoomBoom : See Reply 48 above.
50 Elvis777 : Keesje, After you read reply#48 take a look at pygmalions post. Peace Elvis777
51 Baroque : That is what he tried to type, but an earthquake deflected his fingers. Alas, 'Tls is in a crustally stable region - but then, no area is immune from
52 Ruscoe : Richard Aboulafia hit the nailon the head, but was not the first to say it. It has been said many times over the years that the structure of Airbus is
53 WINGS : While I also place much of the blame on management, I think that its wise to note that Airbus is currently the Nº 1 Airplane manufacturer. They will
54 EbbUK : Was this the same structure, political intereference, national rivalry that has made Airbus the number 1 manufacturer? I wish Aboulafia would hit a n
55 Leelaw : Actually, in the case of the A380, the "problem" seems to be the execution of the design which would indicate a more generalized organizational failu
56 Par13del : Its is interesting to see how in the age of the internet, free media/press and other sources of information how an issue like this can be kept so hidd
57 Glideslope : You are 100% on target. This will be the decisive factor for Airbus' future. Boeing is generating huge amounts of cash at this point for future R&D.
58 Zeke : AB have 15-20 bill in cashflow coming in in the next 5 years. I think someone has ordered the 320E recently, its just going down as a 320, nothing sp
59 Keesje : I think Richard should take a tour through the 747 production line and then through the A380 production line. Would be an eye openener.
60 Post contains images Rheinbote : Food for thought
61 Ruscoe : Essentially, but Airbus has changed and the structure has not adapted to the new reality. In its early days Airbus had a clear goal of becoming No1 i
62 Rheinbote : Welcome to my RU list
63 Leelaw : Why? Is the moving final assembly line adopted for the 747 circa 2003 that bad?
64 Post contains images PlaneHunter : Sure... PH
65 Glideslope : Exactly. Airbus is run with a very "Top Down" management style. Very "Federal Government Oriented ". Very poor communication. huge turf battles, and
66 Trex8 : what production problems were there on the A345/6???? weren't most of the in flight reliability problems related to engines(and RR would dispute that
67 PlaneHunter : It is what we think we know already that often prevents us from learning. Claude Bernard PH
68 Zvezda : No, SQ took out a LoI to exercise 9 of their WhaleJet options. They have not (as yet) exercised those options or places any new WhaleJet orders. Perh
69 Stitch : I believe Leelaw's assertion is the more accurate of the two, for it really cannot be argued that the A300, A310, A320, A330 and A343 programs were a
70 Hb88 : And you know this exactly how? I work in Airbus in the UK and a fair amount transnationally between the Airbus Natcos. From my experience your opinio
71 Baroque : It was discussed some months ago that Airbus was dependent upon the A32x to a very large extent. The A380 is bad for image, and will certainly not be
72 Post contains images BoomBoom : Especially when he looks at the A380 wiring...
73 Post contains images Astuteman : According to the "worst case" analysis done by Richard Aboulaifa for Morgan Stanley, EADS revenue figures for 2007, after the last A380 delay, will b
74 Post contains images Stitch : Looking back on this, I think I used improper wording. My assertion is that the A300-A343 programs were all managed well by Airbus as the programs se
75 Post contains links Shenzhen : This is simply fantastic, especially since EADS themselves are prediciting.... 2006 EBIT* expected at around € 3.2 bn EPS expected at around € 2.
76 Post contains links Astuteman : If you wish to accuse Richard Aboulaifa of spin, don't let me stop you. All I did was quote the analysis. Link is in this thread..... The A380 Debate
77 Shenzhen : Actually, I'm aplauding EADS potential in 2007 when compared to 2006, except for all the potential "exceptional" expenses. Cheers
78 Post contains images TeamAmerica : Allow me to emphasize that these are EBITDA figures, "Earnings Before Interest, Taxes, and Depreciation and Amortization." EBIT is accepted as a meas
79 Post contains images Astuteman : In a way, it's not really (exceptionals excepted...  ) Outwith the A380:- A32x deliveries will increase A330 deliveries will increase. Eurocopter de
80 Shenzhen : Does make you wonder why the every one is selling out except Governments. Cheers
81 MCIGuy : Make no mistake, Putin is a power-hungry individual and is already trying gain a foothold by cornering the European natural gas market. The recent mo
82 TeamAmerica : Gadzooks, alas and alack! When a discussion on an aviation forum digresses into discussion of EBIT/EBITDA and the like, is it not acceptable to injec
83 Post contains images Zvezda :
84 Post contains images BoomBoom : What is the link between the natural gas market and the European aviation industry?
85 Post contains images PlaneHunter : Getting one finger doesn't mean having the whole hand. PH
86 Zvezda : Political power vis-a-vis a potential adversary. Putin sees Europe not as a trading partner but as an adversary.
87 BoomBoom : It seems to me he would use gas to gain control of the aviation industry, not the other way around. Why would the EU let Putin buy any part of EADS?
88 474218 : Don't know about the software EADS uses but Cadam, the grandfather of all computer aided manufacturing systems, was invented by Lockheed.
89 Comorin : Thank you for clarifying that - I worked at McD when they were selling CADAM quite succesfully, and was under the impression that they pioneered it w
90 Cobra27 : As far as I heard it it IFE, but doesn't make sense that IFE would cause such a lengthy delays- I hate that stupid whale..... remarks. It bring a bad
91 Baroque : Thanks Hb, I knew some of yous (Australian collective for a plurality of you) were out there and hoped one would reply based on facts and not remote
92 Stitch : Pygmalion has summed it up pretty well. Assuming I am paraphrasing him correctly, the issue is that HAM ran wires through conduit that was supposed t
93 Post contains images NAV20 : I faff about on enough threads already, Astuteman, so I've given everyone a break by not contributing to this one so far. But I'll respond to that po
94 Baroque : Probably not, but it also does not seem the moment to wheel in Hanrahan for the "We'll all be rooned" recitation (yet)!
95 Post contains links BoomBoom : http://www.gulf-times.com/site/topic...sion=1&template_id=48&parent_id=28
96 Post contains images Astuteman : It's definitely acceptable, if it's right. But this wasn't right, and required correction. For clarification..... If that's a problem, then I'll apol
97 Post contains images Hb88 : Thanks. I know there are others lurking out there... Generally, it is extremely difficult correcting some of the misinformation about Airbus on a.net
98 Post contains images Shenzhen : If a stock drops 50 percent, it must then gain 100 percent to get back to where it once was..... If a stock drops from 100 dollars to 1.00, then boun
99 474218 : What do you base this statement on? Deliveries: EADS delivered about half as many aircraft in the first 6 months of 2006 as the number one manufactur
100 Brenintw : Is EVA getting the A380? I don't see it listed on Airbus' website as an outstanding order, and I certainly haven't heard anything here about EVA orde
101 WINGS : Shall we have this discussion in mid January 2007? Don't make a full of your self. Why compare oranges to apples? We are clearly comparing 100+ seat
102 Post contains images Astuteman : Not quite. In dollar terms Boeing Corporation Sales - $54.8Bn EADS Sales - $42.5Bn For commercial aircraft:- Boeing Commercial Aircraft Sales - $22.6
103 Zvezda : Airbus will almost certainly deliver more airliners in 2006 and 2007 than Boeing. 2008 and 2009 are difficult to call. Based on the limited informati
104 WINGS : Hi Zvezda, I expect airbus to hold to it's title at least until 2010. Airbus is close to producing 32 A32X frames per month. If China is also to prod
105 Baroque : Nah, Astuteman, this cannot be correct, just come and join me and Slartybarfaast on Magorathea in reciprocal space. From there you we will be able to
106 NAV20 : Tend to agree. But we should be able to judge the situation better once EADS issues its next 'profit warning.' Which I expect they'll do within a wee
107 Post contains images WINGS : Just one correction folks it was meant to be 432 A32X frames per year and not per month. Thank you Baroque for pointing that out Regards, Wings
108 474218 : Forbes 2000, listing of the 2000 largest companies worldwide. All information is for 2005 and in US Dollars: Boeing Rank 98th Sales 52.46B Profit 1.8
109 Keesje : I think of Boeings turnover 55% is military/space of which >85% is US tax payer money. It's biggest customers are not JAL, AA and BA but the US gover
110 WINGS : What about ATR? Does EADS not have a 50% stake in ATR? PS: On a different note does EADS have any stake in Embraer? Regards, Wings
111 Post contains links and images TeamAmerica : Of course you are entitled to your views. My objection is to unnecessary snips like your "nice try" comment, and your general assumption that my post
112 Astuteman : Your definition was just fine. It was your assertion that the figure I quoted was EBITDA, when in fact it wasn't. It was EBIT - a E2Bn difference. I'
113 Shenzhen : I think the only true way to compare these two companies is by their cash flow. They report differently, but cash is cash. Cheers
114 Baroque : Well the first bit came from the disillusioned BAE and the second is not sourced. I would have thought that Astuteman's numbers undermined the second
115 Zvezda : To produce 432 A320s per year over the long term, Airbus must first sell 432 A320s per year. With the B737RS and NSR approaching, that will be increa
116 BoomBoom : Hey Wings, How do you deal with the old A350 sales last year? How can those count if that plane doesn't exist anymore? If customers convert them to th
117 Astuteman : Just a thought - additional borrowing is not necessarily a function of, or indication of, of a corporation being cash-strapped. In fact, I'm pretty s
118 Zvezda : I can't generalize, but the most cash-rich company is Microsoft. They do not borrow.
119 Post contains images Shenzhen : Well, the last car I purchased, I used debt because they offered a loan at 1 percent interest. I simply put the cash, which I could have used to purc
120 Post contains images Stitch : They may find that the "borrowing cost of capital" now is lower then it could be down the road when they might need it, so they borrow now to conserv
121 TeamAmerica : Exactly so. When we are discussing a company being "short on cash" it is largely a relative situation. Airbus is faced with large unbudgeted outlays,
122 Hb88 : IMO, Airbus dying on its feet is the wishful thinking of the more spittle-flecked Boeing cheerleaders on a.net (aviation enthusiasts? Pah!). There is
123 WINGS : From the way that you are describing the situation you expect Airbus not to have a response to the B737RS. Even if Boeing is to launch the B737 today
124 Baroque : If Airbus does let the A32x fall flat on its face, then would be the time to start ordering up the flowers and wreaths. Until then keep ordering in t
125 Zvezda : Please accept my apologies if I inadvertently gave that impression. I do expect the A320E and I expect NSR (which I hope will have a CFRP fuselage).
126 WINGS : I agree with you that gathering 432 A32X orders per year will be rather challenging. Airbus are currently ramping up production to 32 frames per mont
127 Zvezda : I don't think the domination of the narrow-body market by Boeing that we've seen so far this year will continue during the period that the A320E is a
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