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AC To Start YYZ-LIS-JNB?  
User currently offlineRicardoFG From Spain, joined Feb 2005, 677 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 11 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 8433 times:

Having spoken to a few people over at AC, everyone seems to be saying that AC will start service YYZ-LIS codeshared with star alliance member TP as of this spring. JNB they are talking also but it is unsure if that portion of the route will be operated by TP or AC will carry on much like there Delhi route via Zurich. Does anyone know anything of this??

42 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline9252fly From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 1391 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 11 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 8244 times:

JNB service has been rumoured for so long that I've given up on it ever happening. I would have thought AC would have at least started a code-share at LHR with SA and one with both LH and SA at FRA. If there is any truth to the LIS story,then I would say that AC will operate the route a few days a week with TP operating the other days. Currently TP only operates one non-stop a week to JNB with it's other flights routing via MPM(Maputo)and LAD.

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32699 posts, RR: 72
Reply 2, posted (7 years 11 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8177 times:

The rumours have been that Air Canada would route JNB service via Miami, using their new 772LRs.

However, there is no air treaty between South Africa and Canada, so Air Canada can't even fly to Jo'Burg until one is created.



a.
User currently offlineFoxBravo From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2996 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (7 years 11 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8150 times:

This is a very interesting rumor. YYZ-LIS-JNB would be a considerably more direct routing than via MIA (just 350 miles off the great circle route, as compared to 1,000 miles via MIA). Of course there are other considerations--for example, if they had 5th freedom rights, there is probably more traffic between MIA and JNB than between LIS and JNB--but LIS would be one of the least out-of-the-way places to stop without opening a West African station, which has its own complications and might not be worth the hassle. As an added bonus, LIS is also a Star Alliance hub.


Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4976 posts, RR: 51
Reply 4, posted (7 years 11 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8150 times:

Guys,

These rumours are absolutely ridiculous. Let us take a sample of the number of rumours produced on this board, versus the numbers that actually become reality.

Ricardo, did you not put out a rumour last year, that Air Canada was going to for sure do Toronto-Lisbon this summer?


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32699 posts, RR: 72
Reply 5, posted (7 years 11 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8143 times:

Quoting FoxBravo (Reply 3):
This is a very interesting rumor. YYZ-LIS-JNB would be a considerably more direct routing than via MIA (just 350 miles off the great circle route, as compared to 1,000 miles via MIA). Of course there are other considerations--for example, if they had 5th freedom rights, there is probably more traffic between MIA and JNB than between LIS and JNB--but LIS would be one of the least out-of-the-way places to stop without opening a West African station, which has its own complications and might not be worth the hassle. As an added bonus, LIS is also a Star Alliance hub.

MIA-JNB is, like you said, a bigger market, but the most important consideration: South Africans need a US visa to transfer in the United States. This is why I really don't think any YYZ-USA-South Africa routing is going to come into place, unless a market analysis shows that customers on the route will be primarily Americans, Canadians, and South Africans with Visa waivers.



a.
User currently offlineBmacleod From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 2259 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 11 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8100 times:

Africa would be the last continent AC has yet to enter. (except Antartica of course!!) It would be codesharing SA no doubt.

However AC has never shown much interest in flying to Africa so yes this all rumors.... stirthepot 



The engine is the heart of an airplane, but the pilot is its soul.
User currently offlineCayman From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 905 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (7 years 11 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 8044 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 5):
MIA-JNB is, like you said, a bigger market, but the most important consideration: South Africans need a US visa to transfer in the United States. This is why I really don't think any YYZ-USA-South Africa routing is going to come into place, unless a market analysis shows that customers on the route will be primarily Americans, Canadians, and South Africans with Visa waivers.

MAH4546, unless I am wrong I believe you have previously stated your belief of strong potential traffic on the South Florida-S Africa market? If I am incorrect I apoligize.

Anyway if that is your view, would it not be a good potential route for AC (YYZ MIA JNB)--having regard to the product AC will be able to offer in the new 772LRs, the fact that YYZ MIA leg stand well enough alone, and given that MIA JNB might generate decent loads? Add to that the potential of transiting STAR pax? They seem to think the model wil work on YYZ LAX SYD, although that is clearly a differen market tha YYZ MIA JNB.

I think a fairly large number of trasniting S Africans to and from Canada would already haev US visa as they most likely have had to transit through US on prior occasions and business travellers are likely to have a visa thus so far as relates to the stand alone YYZ JNB traffic I think, respectfully, you may overstimate the importance of the visa requirement.


User currently offline9252fly From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 1391 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 11 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 7963 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 2):
However, there is no air treaty between South Africa and Canada, so Air Canada can't even fly to Jo'Burg until one is created.

I suspect this would be a minor formality. 5th freedom rights would be another matter all together.


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 9, posted (7 years 11 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 7924 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 2):
The rumours have been that Air Canada would route JNB service via Miami, using their new 772LRs.

AA wouldn't take that too kindly....especially if they want to expand to South Africa region...

That being said, AA's -200ER's would be a much more weight restricted than say AC's -200LR.....it would be interesting to see what AA would do if AC did announce that route...after they get some bilaterals with South Africa...



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineQFSYD744 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 11 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 7913 times:

Didnt TP serve JNB via Mozambique at one time?

User currently offlineLouA340 From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 385 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 11 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 7791 times:

I still think that if AC will ever fly to JNB with a codeshare, it would more definately be with SA or LH through FRA as there are more schedules through that route.


RyEng
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32699 posts, RR: 72
Reply 12, posted (7 years 11 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 7775 times:

Quoting QFSYD744 (Reply 10):
Didnt TP serve JNB via Mozambique at one time?

TAP still flies to Jo'Burg. LIS-JNB-MPM-LIS 1x a week, and LIS-MPM-JNB-MPM-LIS 3x a week.



a.
User currently offlineRicardoFG From Spain, joined Feb 2005, 677 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 11 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 7537 times:

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 4):
Ricardo, did you not put out a rumour last year, that Air Canada was going to for sure do Toronto-Lisbon this summer?

Yes FLYYUL these rumours I create because I am bored  sarcastic  ...I do not work for Air Canada or TAP, however I have had numerous AC staff tell me this...and this is a message board, not an airline confirmation and press release board...if you find everything so ridiculous, then why waist your own precious time and respond.


User currently offlineSW733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6317 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (7 years 11 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 7323 times:

Interesting rumor...of all the places to connect through, LIS?? I mean, as mentioned, if it went to Maputo or Luanda, I could understand...but Johannesburg? Very interesting. I for one don't see this happening, but I have been wrong before

User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8670 posts, RR: 15
Reply 15, posted (7 years 11 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 7292 times:

I think it would via FRA too as LH, and other star carriers fly through there.

MCOflyer



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineYUL332LX From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 820 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (7 years 11 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 7253 times:

Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 6):
However AC has never shown much interest in flying to Africa

You're right, 'cept for CMN.  Wink



E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
User currently offlineQFSYD744 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 11 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 6964 times:

Quoting YUL332LX (Reply 16):
You're right, 'cept for CMN.

And the only reason that AC looked at CMN was because AT has served CMN from YUL for years. AC couldnt make the route work, if they tried.


User currently offlineDennys From France, joined May 2001, 878 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (7 years 11 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 6339 times:

and what about the A345 ???? to make JNB NON STOP ?

denn


User currently offlineCPDC10-30 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2000, 4780 posts, RR: 23
Reply 19, posted (7 years 11 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 6246 times:

Quoting Dennys (Reply 18):
and what about the A345 ???? to make JNB NON STOP

The A345 is for YYZ-HKG-YYZ, thats all AC can do with a fleet of two of them. They won't be around all that much longer.

The 772LR could easily do YYZ-JNB nonstop.


User currently offlineBA0242 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 11 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 6024 times:

All this is indeed very interesting... It would be great to have AC back in the Iberian peninsula.

Remember in 2003 they flew for some months YYZ-MAD-YYZ with 767, apparently without much success (don't exactly know the reason why they decided to stop the service). If they fly to JNB via LIS, they could also profit from serving the Spain-Canada traffic, since it would be very easy to fly from several Spanish cities to LIS with their alliance member TAP and then connect there with AC to YYZ. So there could be much more business than just LIS and JNB in this route. Let's hope they do it!


User currently offlineYUL332LX From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 820 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (7 years 11 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 5864 times:

Quoting QFSYD744 (Reply 17):
And the only reason that AC looked at CMN was because AT has served CMN from YUL for years. AC couldnt make the route work, if they tried.

Just FYI, AT is flying CMN-YUL 10x weekly this summer. A fair share of the traffic goes beyond CMN, but still, there's room for another carrier on this route.



E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
User currently offlineFLYACYYZ From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 1914 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (7 years 11 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 5692 times:

Quoting Dennys (Reply 18):
and what about the A345 ???? to make JNB NON STOP ?

The 345's are amongst the few (if not only) owned aircraft and are for sale. Coinciding with the arrival of the T-7's and pending their sale, they will be amongst the first to go.

Quoting BA0242 (Reply 20):
Remember in 2003 they flew for some months YYZ-MAD-YYZ with 767, apparently without much success (don't exactly know the reason why they decided to stop the service)

.

Very simply, was a non-profitable, and low yielding route. This was the 2nd go-a-round, following the 1988 service which operated YYZ-YMX-LIS-MAD.

By the end of the year, the company will probably release a list of probable new long haul routes. As previously discussed, realistically you will see:

*YYZ-LAX-SYD
*Expanded service to China
*Expanded and revised service to India



Above and Beyond
User currently offlineOrlando666 From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 168 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 11 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5602 times:

I think this routeing is economically unviable, whatever aircraft/stopover AC could use.

User currently offlineAccargo From Canada, joined Sep 2004, 610 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (7 years 11 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5513 times:

It's not going to happen next year with AC metal. Perhaps in the future (2009->) There are too many other routes that have better potential that need the limited acft AC will have in 2007.

25 FLYYUL : RicardoFG, With all due respect, I really do not think that you adding value to this forum by posting preposterous rumours. Considering your track rec
26 Post contains images Accargo : There are a lot of folks that want this, but no one in any authority has ever said it will happen. Wishful thinking only. Not a chance it will be AC
27 Airbazar : Well, I hinted at the possibility of this happening just a few weeks ago. YYZ-LIS-JNB would be great for both AC and TP. Geograpically speaking, LIS i
28 Bambicruz : I agree there is room for another carrier on that route, that's why i would really like to see AC flying to Casablanca, are they still looking at thi
29 IMatAMS : Supposing AC will start YYZ-LIS-JNB with their own metal, will they have rights to take pax on LIS-JNB alone. So would it be possible to buy an AC tic
30 Accargo : Which route should they drop to start this route? Once again, there are NO SPARE ACFT. Can you guarantee that this route will be more profitable than
31 Sebring : You're certainly right as it pertains to fins, but think of two things. The timed arrival of 777s might not match the A340 removal fin for fin, creat
32 FLYYUL : Why would Air Canada consolidate YUL-FRA? A lucrative service that entails losing slots at the gold mine Frankfurt. All of this to furnish an airplane
33 BoeingBus : The biggest issue I see is the airport... is LIS up to AC standards for eazy transfers and such... I don't think so... They are better off going to MA
34 Airbazar : Why not? US is a new carrier from outside of the EU and they are doing extremely well at LIS. In addition, 50% of TP's passengers between LIS and Bra
35 Salomon : I think it was only an example, that could also apply to LHR. When YEG-LHR and YYT-LHR go daily, there will be 1 slot missing in LHR. Merging 2 767 f
36 Sebring : You are way too sensitive about your airport. If YUL has double daily service to FRA, it can consolidate with a single flight and turn the slot over
37 BoeingBus : Yeah, and US flies single aisle jets... Look, if you don't want to believe me that LIS has maxed out to its usefulness than fine... continue on belie
38 Post contains images FLYYUL : This has nothing to do with airports, but rather with the continuous pipe dreams that arise from posters. BTW, were you not the person that once said
39 Post contains links AirCanada014 : I remember back in early 90s when Canada and Germany signed open skies and 5th freedom too and that AC and LH formed an alliance.. During that time Ai
40 YOW : Correct me if I'm wrong but the YYT flight doesn't require a slot in the typical sense given it's arr/dep time are in the late pm, a relatively 'quie
41 Airbazar : Are you kidding me? I'm all for a new airport. If anything I've been criticizing the Portuguese authorities for beeing too short sighted and slow to
42 Pyrex : I wouldn't be so sure about that - if they time the flights right for the Azores flights on the Toronto - Lisbon leg and with the Madeira flights on
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