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UAL Merger Talks  
User currently offlineScaledesigns From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 211 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 16887 times:

I see on Reuters they are reporting today UAL might try to merge with another airline.I know this has been talked about before.The United
Continental seems the most talked about.Do you think UA would try a AA
style TWA or USair/America West Merger with a Chapter 11 airline like NW or DL.I know the AA/TW deal turned out to be the "great mistake",but no one
knew what was coming on Sep 11.If not for that AA would have looked brilliant!


F1 Tommy
200 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineM777d From Ireland, joined Jun 2005, 43 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 16836 times:

Can you put a link in for the story. I have looked on Reuters and cannot find anything when I search for "UAL Merger Talks"

User currently offlineFXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7191 posts, RR: 86
Reply 2, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 16818 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Here is a good link.  box 

Yet Another United Merger Thread (by Nuggetsyl Sep 25 2006 in Civil Aviation)


User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6756 posts, RR: 17
Reply 3, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 16818 times:

Wouldn't United/Continental be too big? If not, what in the world would Continental (the surviving entity) do with those Airbii? How long does one think they will stay in the fleet?


Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineBicoastal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 16789 times:

And another ....

http://www.airliners.net/discussions...eneral_aviation/read.main/3001206/


User currently offlineAtnight From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 606 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 16661 times:

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 3):
Wouldn't United/Continental be too big? If not, what in the world would Continental (the surviving entity) do with those Airbii? How long does one think they will stay in the fleet?

First of all, even though I would hate a merger between the two, if it ends happening, Continental may be the one in management, but the United brand would be stay (just because United is bigger and they have access to the most important markets worldwide which CO lacks or is limited).... So those of you who hope or wish that the CO brand will be kept or a hybrid brand version of CO-UA to come up, are simply dreaming.... because United is the brand that makes most sense to stay in the market...
Now, what would the new CO-UA do with their airbuses? I think they could slowly put all their Airbuses under the TED brand while all the B737NG that CO has would go for domestic mainline.... Plus with the combined fleet of 757, the routes currently with B737 service would be allocated to them (757s).... of course, I think that with a merger, most of CO's orders for additional B737s (including the 900ERs) will be converted to more efficient wide-bodies, (787s and 777s) which both companies lack... And I say this because a combined CO-UA would have way too many single-aisle aircraft (UA alone has almost 100 757s) and thus to keep the order of 60+ 737NG that CO has would not make sense in the short to medium-term future...
Anyways... I sure hope that doesn't happen!!!



B707 B727 B733/5/7/8/9 B742/4 B752/3 B763/4 B772 A310 A318/319/320 A332 A343 MD80 DC9/10 CRJ200 ERJ145 ERJ-170 Be1900 Da
User currently offlinePhilhyde From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 678 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 16645 times:

Here is an article in the LA Business Journal

Report: United looking at merger options

UAL Corp., the parent company of United Airlines, has brought in Goldman Sachs & Co. to explore options for the company, including possible mergers with other airlines, according to a report in Crain's Chicago Business.

http://losangeles.bizjournals.com/lo...les/stories/2006/09/25/daily1.html



HoustonSpotters Admin - Canon junkie - Aviation Nut
User currently offline777STL From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3562 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 16625 times:

Quoting Atnight (Reply 5):
So those of you who hope or wish that the CO brand will be kept or a hybrid brand version of CO-UA to come up, are simply dreaming.... because United is the brand that makes most sense to stay in the market...

Owernship by one of the other doesn't necessitate that one brand survives while the other doesn't. Look at KLM and AF.



PHX based
User currently offlineScaledesigns From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 16535 times:

United looking at merger options

Date: Mon 25th Sep 2006
NORTH AMERICA - UAL Corp., the parent company of United Airlines, has brought in Goldman Sachs & Co. to explore options for the company, including possible mergers with other airlines, according to a report in Crain's Chicago Business.

Goldman Sachs will help United assess the value of its holdings and explore possible partners for a merger. The report says that Houston's Continental (NYSE: CAL) and Atlanta's Delta (Pink Sheets: DALRQ) are the most likely possibilities for a merger.

United exited Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection on February 1 after an extensive reorganization that saw the airline cut annual costs by $7 billion.

Chicago-based United (NASDAQ: UAUA) is the nation's second-largest airline and the largest airline serving Los Angeles International Airport.


Here is the latest from LA business and Crains Chicago.



F1 Tommy
User currently offlineBmacleod From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 2243 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 16535 times:

CO would be better off going with DL when looking at their hub systems. With UA's airbuses, they would lean more toward NW although no carrier in their right mind wants to mess with that freefaller!! no 


The engine is the heart of an airplane, but the pilot is its soul.
User currently offlineScaledesigns From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 16505 times:

Sounds like it will happen soon..I think United will be the name kept
in any deal.



F1 Tommy
User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6785 posts, RR: 34
Reply 11, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 16491 times:

CO should stay solo....we don't need the self-mutilation problems of a merger.

User currently offlineAtnight From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 606 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 16464 times:

Quoting 777STL (Reply 7):
Owernship by one of the other doesn't necessitate that one brand survives while the other doesn't. Look at KLM and AF.

You do know why they had to keep the brands separate no? Or did you miss that part of information? (Just so you know, there are some plans of making the 2 into a new or merged brand, or dropping KLM altogether)...
at any rate, comparing CO-UA to AF-KL is comparing apples to oranges... AF is from FRANCE, and KLM is from HOLLAND...two separate countries (part of the reason why they couldn't drop the names right away).... while UA is from Chicago and CO from Texas... (aren't they both in the USA?, I thought so).... so keeping two brands in the same country plus a sub-brand (TED) would only keep operational prices high and would be a BIG issue with management... that's why you see NO merger in the history of the US keeping two different names alive.... in the most recent mergers, AA got rid of TWA while HP left their name in favor of US.... So although you may be hopeful, all logic goes against you...



B707 B727 B733/5/7/8/9 B742/4 B752/3 B763/4 B772 A310 A318/319/320 A332 A343 MD80 DC9/10 CRJ200 ERJ145 ERJ-170 Be1900 Da
User currently offlineScaledesigns From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 16431 times:

I agree slider.I think Delta would be a better merger for UAL.The only problem
would be major hubs at the worst ATC delayed airports in the USA,ORD and ATL.



F1 Tommy
User currently offlineCO767FA From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 532 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 16359 times:

Quoting Atnight (Reply 5):
(just because United is bigger and they have access to the most important markets worldwide which CO lacks or is limited)....

Since you are so full of opinions; Which "access to the most important markets" does CO lack or is limited (besides LHR)?

Quoting Atnight (Reply 12):
So although you may be hopeful, all logic goes against you...

Logic doesn't always prevail; so I guess we will have to wait and see how the whole thing unfolds.


User currently offline777STL From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3562 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 16333 times:

Quoting Atnight (Reply 12):
so keeping two brands in the same country plus a sub-brand (TED) would only keep operational prices high and would be a BIG issue with management... that's why you see NO merger in the history of the US keeping two different names alive.... in the most recent mergers, AA got rid of TWA while HP left their name in favor of US.... So although you may be hopeful, all logic goes against you...

I disagree, when one brand has a great deal of value, it makes sense to keep it. HP and US being a special case in that HP didn't have much brand value outside of the western US and certainly not internationally.

First off, if you want to attempt to sound like you know what you're talking about, you've got to get the terminology right. Technically speaking, an acquisition is one company buying out the other, e.g. AA buying out TWA. A merger on the other hand is an actual honest to god merger where both company's shareholders surrender their shares and new stock is issued in its place for the new, merged company.

Both UA and CO are relatively viable companies with strong brands, I highly doubt one will acquire the other in this instance. Hence, why I think they will merge, a "merger of equals" to use the correct terminology. These types of mergers happen every day and the brands CAN and DO stay in tact. Exxon and Mobil are a perfect example of this.



PHX based
User currently offlineScaledesigns From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 16310 times:

We all know another major airline merger is in the cards.The only wish
I have is that CEOs would not profit from it.They should only be done to
help the airline become more competitive,not line rich mens pockets.
Remember the good old days when United had cargo planes?
Big version: Width: 1500 Height: 1000 File size: 1065kb
United DC8-54F at the old UAL cargo ramp,ORD in July 1984

I know im cheating!



F1 Tommy
User currently offlineAtnight From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 606 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 16126 times:

Quoting CO767FA (Reply 14):
Since you are so full of opinions; Which "access to the most important markets" does CO lack or is limited (besides LHR)?

I'm not full of opinions sir, just have more facts to prove my point of view.... besides LHR, they have major access to China (direct and via Tokyo), all Asia, SYD and the South Pacific... (oh, and to remind you that UA is the only US airline to have full access to the South Pacific)... and again, the routes to Asia which CO doesn't have will never be available to CO (even Bethune admits that CO will never get access to Asia like UA has).... Now, back in Europe, they could get access to cities where CO serves, but in that regard they have left it to their partners.... And even to South America UA could fly if they wanted to, but that's just something they don't care for (which that's why I don't like UA's management at all).... so really, UA has access to key markets that CO doesn't nor will they ever get....

Quoting 777STL (Reply 15):
First off, if you want to attempt to sound like you know what you're talking about, you've got to get the terminology right. Technically speaking, an acquisition is one company buying out the other, e.g. AA buying out TWA. A merger on the other hand is an actual honest to god merger where both company's shareholders surrender their shares and new stock is issued in its place for the new, merged company.

Thanks for your kind words, however, I was referring to the history of mergers within the US airline industry.... and even though you point out that many "mergers" in the past were when one airline was "buying-out" a competitor, it still doesn't make any sense to keep two separate airlines running.... think of it more practically.... will you keep both to compete against each other? or will you keep two to compliment each other? if the later is the case, how will you EFFECTIVELY do that? what markets will be allocated to one and which to other without complicating too much to the traveller? how will you run itineraries so that both separate airlines complement? in such a large domestic market like the US, keeping both airlines alive would only be chaos... Imagine how many people would be confused as to where to go to check in at the airport if there's different counters for each airline? Wouldn't it make more sense to just have ONE counter? and if you have just ONE counter, why not have ONE brand? Why bother making lines longer by asking people "which airline, CO or UA?" Again, there is no logic in keeping two airline brands under the same management within the US.... The only way it could work, is putting the brand Continental to do all their domestic and United all international (or vise-versa)... but having both run domestically and internationally, keeping both brands alive in all their strength, is just absurd.... you could ask this to any specialist in airline mergers...

Quoting 777STL (Reply 15):
Both UA and CO are relatively viable companies with strong brands, I highly doubt one will acquire the other in this instance. Hence, why I think they will merge, a "merger of equals" to use the correct terminology. These types of mergers happen every day and the brands CAN and DO stay in tact. Exxon and Mobil are a perfect example of this.

And since YOU know so much more, do you think you can compare an oil company that has many products (Brands) to an airline which has only ONE product? Also, the Exxon-Mobil merger produced the name "EXXONMOBIL" which is the new name.... the "Exxon", "Mobil" names are part of their retail brands which "Esso", "Speedpass", "Mobil1", "Mobil Delvac", etc, are part of.... so you again are also comparing apples to oranges when you compare an UA-CO merger with Exxonmobil....



B707 B727 B733/5/7/8/9 B742/4 B752/3 B763/4 B772 A310 A318/319/320 A332 A343 MD80 DC9/10 CRJ200 ERJ145 ERJ-170 Be1900 Da
User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4001 posts, RR: 13
Reply 18, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 16124 times:

Quoting Atnight (Reply 5):
but the United brand would be stay

Maybe they'll come up with a new name, like Incontinented. Big grin


User currently offlinePhilhyde From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 678 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 16103 times:

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 18):
Maybe they'll come up with a new name, like Incontinented

In the case of United and Continental, wouldn't Uncontinented be more appropriate?



HoustonSpotters Admin - Canon junkie - Aviation Nut
User currently offlineAtnight From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 606 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 16034 times:

Also, just so that 777STL and others who may think like him may see, in a merger between CO and UA (or UA and DL), one company will likely aquire the other instead of becoming two (something that I have said makes no sense).... so in a CO-UA merger one name will remain and the other be dropped or at best for those hopeful, a new name could be place (which I believe will not happen)..... here's a quote in the news article which mentions that Ray Neidl, an analyst in the subject commented the following:

"Neidl said that if a merger does take place, United will likely be the buyer."

Full article

[Edited 2006-09-25 20:43:34]


B707 B727 B733/5/7/8/9 B742/4 B752/3 B763/4 B772 A310 A318/319/320 A332 A343 MD80 DC9/10 CRJ200 ERJ145 ERJ-170 Be1900 Da
User currently offlineScaledesigns From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 15972 times:

atnight,
I agree with that article and you.
One thing that no one mentioned is that United would become the largest
airline again,passing AA!!

Maybe UAL will need that office space in downtown Chicago.



F1 Tommy
User currently offlineKlkla From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 930 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 15949 times:

Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 9):
CO would be better off going with DL when looking at their hub systems. With UA's airbuses, they would lean more toward NW although no carrier in their right mind wants to mess with that freefaller!!

I would have to disagree with you on that one. A Continental / Delta merger makes very little sense because they both have such similar route networks already and would have little to gain.

By comparison either of those two companies would be a great fit with United because they are both strong in Europe where United isn't very strong, and United is very strong in the fast growing Asian market where Continental & Delta are not strong.

I wouldn't place too much importance on fleet comonality. Securring growth in new markets is a much more important factor in the short term. As the merged company buys newer more full efficient aircraft they can deal with the comonality issues.


User currently offlineSurfdog75 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 331 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 15908 times:

Quoting Atnight (Reply 20):
"Neidl said that if a merger does take place, United will likely be the buyer."

Mike Boyd sees it a little differently.

http://www.aviationplanning.com/asrc1.htm


User currently offlineCO767FA From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 532 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 15588 times:

Quoting Atnight (Reply 20):
here's a quote in the news article which mentions that Ray Neidl, an analyst in the subject commented the following:

"Neidl said that if a merger does take place, United will likely be the buyer."

Oh...why didn't you add the Ray Neidl piece in your first post? If he says that United would be the buyer, well than that is the end of the discussion.  Yeah sure Forget the old adage, "Opinions are like a$$holes; everyone has one".  butthead 

Seriously, if United has such a rock solid plan in place, why are they looking to grow outside of their own organization. While you believe that Asia is the end all market (we serve 24 destinations in Asia and the South Pacific); it is apparent that UA doesn't believe it can survive on its own. Thank goodness CO thinks otherwise; we continue to grow 5%-7% annually, have aircraft on order and being delivered and we continue to hire for growth (not just because people are leaving).

I could possibly see only the name "United" surviving; the rest: Logo, Type face, frequent flyer program, Presidents Club, colors, uniforms, cutlery and everything else would say "Continental" and the rest of the world would know it was the real survivor.  cloudnine 


25 DC8FanJet : Mike Boyd only agrees with something that Mike Boyd is promoting. CO wouldn't be such a great mix for UA, they've been to Ch. 11 twice, almost 3 times
26 Fewsolarge : UA/CO: Yukon Then Ted could be renamed Cornelius.
27 Lemurs : What in the world does that have to do with anything? The last time CO was bankrupt was 15 years ago under an entirely different management group tha
28 CO767FA : What does that have to do with anything we are currently talking about? Only carriers that have matching "trips" to BK should hook up? Or corporate c
29 Nuggetsyl : Are you kidding me. I hope that does happen because if i was forced to merge with anyone i would rather team up with Alaska.
30 Petertenthije : Con-U-Air?
31 CO767FA : And what does Alaska offer that CO doesn't have? More west coast presence? Not enough of a concern for CO to care.
32 Scaledesigns : United fly "continental" into the ground again! 1st time Lorenzo 2nd time Tilton
33 Nuggetsyl : We have no west coast presence. Almost 0. And i said if i was forced to merge with another airline alaska would be the one because of the work group
34 Post contains links Mariner : Because it is about company - shareholder - value. Forget airlines, why does any company grow, especially through merger and/or acquisition activity
35 CO767FA : Hm-mm....Alaska doesn't add to bottom-line; they don't have any "jewels" that we wouldn't be able to get on our own; given time and the bad luck of s
36 Jetdeltamsy : And you base this statement on what? Continental is huge in Europe and Mexico/Central/South America. United's brand, in my opinion, carries no better
37 Nuggetsyl : I agree with you on this 100%.
38 Panamair : Agree with you there but the problem is, if Tilton finds a willing dance partner of a decent size, it would pretty much force the others to do someth
39 Lemurs : The Alaska cargo market is one. That's nothing to scoff at, it's been the bread and butter for AS for a very long time now, and many airlines would l
40 777STL : For someone who in one post prides himself on supporting himself with facts.... ....and then supports his opinion, which he passes off as fact, with
41 Post contains images Ptharris : Oh my... Continental and a merger/buyout.. can we say Eastern? Amen! Someone had to say it!
42 Atnight : Do some of you think I'm against CO?.... instead of trying to read objectively, you say something that is completely off the subject of which I was t
43 Jetdeltamsy : What analysts? Which reports? All I asked was on what basis you made such a statement. Tell us, i'm interested.
44 Post contains images Falcon84 : How About "ConU"?
45 CHIFLYGUY : Seems to me that Tilton is looking for his exit strategy. United has a fantastic brand and incredible assets, but its cost base and operations are not
46 STT757 : It would be run by the folks in Houston.
47 Falcon84 : If UA would sell that off in a carve-up, CO would try to snap that up in a second-along with some fleet assets to go with it. That would make CO's pr
48 Klkla : Very well said and probably closest to the truth from most of the posts I have seen on this subject. Companies bring in Goldman Sachs to see how much
49 Flygbear : I can't imagine UA would sell off the NY-LON route and center on Asia if it were not because they're dealing with a merger, such as CO having EWR now
50 WorldTraveler : While it is SOOO boring, the only way for airlines to succeed is to run a winning operation on their own. UA is trying to find a merger partner for on
51 STT757 : It makes sense for UAL to sell their London rights to Delta if they are going to merge with CO because they would have duplicate authorities, might as
52 Falcon84 : In CO's Daily News Update to employees, the lead news was the merger rumors. The story said CO is committed to and would prefer to remain independent.
53 CHIFLYGUY : Thank you for the kind words. There is a danger that CO would only try to bid for the international sectionsl. That would cause problems. However, mu
54 DL Widget Head : last time I checked, DL did not operate a hub at STL.
55 CHIFLYGUY : WT, I agree with the majority of your post. However, I think you are underselling the likelihood of a UA sell-off. Tilton is motivated to do a deal.
56 CHIFLYGUY : Sorry, I meant SLC (Denver replaces Salt Lake City).
57 STT757 : If this were the scenario I could see CO and AA dividing UAL up, leaving DL to persue a merger with NWA. CO would get SFO, Denver, London Heathrow AA
58 Charlienorth : Why the great desire for a break-up of UAL
59 STT757 : Im just responding to one person's scenario, there's many possible scenarios.
60 Jacobin777 : I respectfully disagree about DL wanting ORD...especially given that ATL is only 526nm away... AA would love to have UA's China routes....even though
61 Scaledesigns : If not for politics a break up of UAL might be possible. No matter what the CO guys like to think,UAL will take over,not be taken over by either DL or
62 Charlienorth : Especially since they've pretty much given up on ORD
63 CHIFLYGUY : CVG is even closer to ATL, but DL operates a hub there. I'm talking a hub swap, ORD for CVG. Chicago is one of the most attractive markets in the cou
64 CHIFLYGUY : It's less about needing new USA-Japan flight than it is about getting 5th freedom in NRT. That is the #1 asset United holds. China frequencies will e
65 Scaledesigns : They are not going to cut up UAL.Give it up.They may sell more routes but a break up is very unlikely.And by the way,isnt Delta still in chapter 11? A
66 CO767FA : Part of CO's strategy includes Chelsea Catering and so in the above scenario, I think CO would want LAX before SFO.
67 STT757 : Los Angeles is a big enough station even without a hub status to justify Chelsea's catering operation, and they can always build a new facility at SF
68 Post contains images QFSYD744 : Top of the list American Airlines, followed by Northwest Airlines. Very large, the Bay Area for American Airlines, One World, and American Airlines p
69 CO767FA : Yes and it continues to be profitable.
70 Post contains links Mariner : The Crain's article - or at least, the one I read - doesn't suggest anything about a carve up: http://chicagobusiness.com/cgi-bin/m...ited+airlines&a
71 CHIFLYGUY : What article did you read? It is right there in the second paragraph: "People close to United expect Goldman to help the airline assess the value of
72 Mariner : Using your own quote, it says: I would certainly expect Goldman Sachs to assess the value - and perhaps advise as to a possible sale, or otherwise. As
73 Aero0729 : Continental is a very well managed, excellent airline. United would ruin all they worked for. Not to say United is not a good airline, but there is so
74 CO767FA : Yet in this hour of speculation, you can't ignore it as a possibility.
75 777STL : And you need to learn that just because someone's opinion differs from yours, doesn't make it wrong. Seems rather hypocritical of you to tell me *I*
76 Mariner : Oh, I would. It is certainly true that the sum of the parts is sometimes greater than the whole, but that usually ignores one (important but unquanti
77 CO767FA : And which camp do you sit in? I think we are in opposite camps.
78 Post contains images Mariner : Sorry, I don't know what you mean, I am not in either - or any - camp. It is what it is, it will be what it will be, and not one single word I say wi
79 Amazonphil : Excellent comment Aero, In addition to your comments, UA needs to prove itself(get consistently profitable,be stable in the system) for a few years b
80 Post contains images Jacobin777 : but CVG doesn't have the intense competitor of AA..who would fight hard to take some extra market share if UA was out a bit.... Ok..I see your point.
81 Max Q : Mike Boyd is probably the most inciteful airline analyst out there. It is merger mania again , apparently. As I have said before combining the jewel t
82 BAW716 : Gordon Bethune spoke last week of the virtues of a merger between Continental and United, this week, Glen Tilton is telling everyone that United wants
83 Mariner : Continental isn't the only airline out there. Would your same concerns apply to - say - NWA? It doesn't quite make sense to me why two strong - or ev
84 777fan : I think that despite all of the discussion in this forum, the simple fact that the industry is ripe for drawdown cannot be discounted. Be it UA-CO, UA
85 Max Q : There is no 'beauty' in a merger, Mariner, only for the lawyers involved, while advocates see pretty route maps and so called 'synergies' realists can
86 BAW716 : 777fan, You make may good points, the best one being UA's banks. My sense is that they will be in favor of a merger, as it will mean they stand a bett
87 Planemaker : Of course there is no "beauty" but there is no alternative to mergers (except liquidation which is politically less palatable). It seems that very fe
88 UAL777 : We all have our favorite airlines, so I will only say this: The only person on here making any sense is Mariner. We all have our favorite airlines (my
89 Post contains links Mariner : I am sure the employees of US Airways see some value in still having a job. As Mike Boyd says: http://www.aviationplanning.com/asrc1.htm "Actually, e
90 PVG : It's been a long time since I've posted, but I just have to give Boyd some crap on this. Boyd is the same guy who last year was talking about if oil w
91 BAW716 : UAL777, With all due respect, you really need to get your facts straight: 1. While UA was in Ch. 11, the creditors came to Tilton THREE times wanting
92 Planemaker : For what its worth, Bethune said in his latest interview that he thought that in a hypothetical consolidation UA would do the acquiring but CO would
93 Panamair : Not just a FEW airlines made profits in Q2, almost every US airline made very decent opreating profits in Q2. Operating margins ranged from 5% (UA) t
94 PVG : Noted. OK, I don't have the profit numbers in front of me, so I'll take your word for it. Still, what does that prove? There could just have been a s
95 Post contains images Teixeim : Trying on some names for size.... Delted or Unita? Conted or Uninental? Maybe we should just leave 'em alone!
96 Nuggetsyl : OK if united and cal did merge where would the head quaters be located.
97 Flightopsguy : I thought that UA had about $5.7 billion in the bank...most of it unrestricted? Although BAW716 is correct...Chase and others really own all the asse
98 WorldTraveler : But it doesn’t mean that anyone else is able of willing to buy. Of course the banks want to protect their investments but other airlines are not ne
99 STT757 : Houston CO does have the reputation as having the best management team in the industry, especially amongst Wall Street investors. They are also consi
100 Post contains images QFSYD744 : This is a point I have to question. How will UA continue to operate SFO-SYD, LAX-SYD, SFO-HKG, ORD-HKG, SFO-PEK, SFO-PVG without the 747-400, and its
101 ORD : UA could easily fund such an acquisition if the banks provided the funding, which they seem willing to do. I'm not saying UA would be the buyer (if t
102 Post contains links STT757 : From the local New Jersey papers, quoting the Crains news. More: http://www.nj.com/business/ledger/in...ness-4/1159249226224510.xml&coll=1
103 PVG : By the way, everyone talks about the labor issues. I really don't understand why it took GM and FORD so long to figure out that if they offer the empl
104 Post contains images Deputydawghere : What is it with you and United? It's one thing we have to continually read your chronic soap box, cheer leading posts about Delta all the time, but n
105 Junction : Also, this is the fist time the daily bulletin actually refers employees to each individual group's work rules for details on merger protections. Thi
106 Post contains images Scaledesigns : Everybody is talking Continental,but they might just take over Delta. And what about US airways?Does that hold a chance.We all know that deal was dead
107 Panamair : Of course Tilton has approached DL (Doug Parker had approached DL about a merger previously when he heard that another carrier (read: UA) had approac
108 Post contains links TropicBird : Has anybody noticed this event (US very publicly supporting UAL's latest entry to China). This is not only about code share. I believe there is someth
109 United319 : Here we go...the weekly UA/CO merger thread That was a low blow The HP/US merger seems to be helping out both airlines...
110 BAW716 : OK, let me respond: Planemaker and ORD: You are correct and I stand corrected. That said, it won't be UA that makes the purchase, it would be the bank
111 Max Q : Mergers are not 'inevitable' what matters is a quality product, period.
112 Jacobin777 : However, the problem is UA has still a large contract with Airbus...wouldn't they stand to lose a lot of money? Why? Why build two large hubs practic
113 FlyHoss : Don't overlook the fact that NW still possesses a single "super-share" that grants NW the power to veto any acquistion of CO. So, if there's a merger,
114 Planemaker : No, sustained profitability is what matters, period. FR has the worst "quality" of any carrier (or the perception of) yet is profitable and with a ma
115 Mariner : Isn't that the point of it? I am puzzled that you would blame Mr. Parker for doing what others failed to do. The new CEO, Mr Parker, is doing to US i
116 Kiwiandrew : but would they want to veto it ? 1 / NW has not been able to get anti trust immunity for their partnership with KL/DL/AF - this is endangering their
117 Post contains links Mariner : Of course, I believe Northwest still has the ability to block any merger by Continental. Would they use that power, I wonder? Or would they be brought
118 Max Q : In this country quality leads directly to profitability, even an armchair expert should see that. Actually, in their own way FR does offer a quality p
119 Planemaker : No, value does... and that is why WN (and FR in Europe) is doing so much better than the Legacies.
120 Klkla : The NRT hub gets a lot of traffic from SFO but isn't necessarily dependent on it. NRT is also serviced from LAX (as you mentioned), SEA, ORD, and JFK
121 CHIFLYGUY : Hmm. ORD and DFW are also fairly close by this definition, yet AA is the only legacy carrier that has avoided filing bankruptcy. Again, if hubs so cl
122 N174UA : True, but...until NW takes a giant leap of faith to repair their labor relations, there wouldn't be any difference between UA/CO and NW in this regar
123 ORD : ORD and ATL are not too close in my opinion. ORD is much better suited than ATL for all the northeast-west traffic. Someone in Buffalo flying to Seat
124 QFSYD744 : AA evaded BK court by diluting every last thing that set American Airlines apart from the rest of the U.S. based major airlines. American Airlines do
125 AirFRNT : I know I am jumping in a bit late, but some things that I don't think have been said ought to be: There is a small window of opportunity here to get s
126 Kiwiandrew : I am curious as to your reasoning for this ? the A320s are not CFM powered so I don't get the connection
127 Post contains images Kiwiandrew : Sorry , I am not sure that I get your reasoning - what is the connection ? the UA A320s are all IAE V2500 powered not CFM , whereas the CO 737NG are
128 Post contains images Mariner : There we are in complete agreement. We've always been in disagreement on that. I do agree with everything else you say, though: But you missed one. T
129 Max Q : Nobody will pay for 'value' if the product is crap. Southwest is good 'value' but only because theirs is a quality product.
130 Jacobin777 : ATL and DFW serve different regions of the United States.... Again, because CVG doesn't have massive competition where as ORD does...AA will defend i
131 WorldTraveler : I have no qualms with US shrinking to maintain profitability but if you shrink and allow competitors to grow, you cannot be viable long-term. You mig
132 Post contains images Planemaker : So you are saying... that the Legacies are crap compared to Southwest! Afterall, Southwest has greatly grown its market share in the past 5 years and
133 Post contains images Jacobin777 : I lived in Chicago for 3 decades.... AA, UA, and WN rule Chicago...AA would defend its turf and try to expand big time in ORD.... DL would need to he
134 Mariner : But you were talking about market share, not profitability. To be concerned about the growth of other airlines is to be concerned about market share.
135 Ned Kelly : IMO, buyouts/mergers of airlines usually occur for one of two reasons; 1. To expand upon their current network. 2. To wipe out the competition. If it
136 Planemaker : You forgot the most important... 3. To improve profitablity. And buyout/mergers could be for all 3 reasons.
137 Deputydawghere : My friend, I respect your knowledge base. It's obvious you know a lot about the airline industry, a lot more than I do, however, what gets tiring aft
138 AirFrnt : Sorry. This was a oversight. Mr. Parker does intend to be involved, and is already sniffing around. I don't think we will see a US airways/CO or US/U
139 DeltaSFO : Statements like these are a good example of what happens when people don't know what they're talking about, don't bother to do a little research befo
140 Panamair : I don't believe that WorldTraveler is trashing UA just for trashing's sake; the issue many of us have with UA is that it could have easily become so
141 Deputydawghere : Thanks.
142 AirFrnt : You attack me personally, rather then dispute my statements. Which for the record were: Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 138): ATL's prominence right now is du
143 WorldTraveler : You're probably right. DL's customer base in ATL will not be there after the 2nd coming but other than that ATL will continue to be a powerhouse. ATL
144 Deputydawghere : Thanks
145 Vivpa : Perhaps UA is looking to sell Mileage Plus, similar to what AC did with aeroplan?
146 Flightopsguy : Huh? UA's load factor has been second only to NW's for many months. Most folks seem to be voting with their pocketbooks.
147 DeltaSFO : No, I didn't say anything about you as a person. I did criticize your half baked theories on Delta's "newness" among international carriers and your
148 Mariner : Nope. Not my position. But market share does not necessarily beget profit. As indeed was US Airways. As indeed was every airline in the US. I do find
149 Post contains images Jacobin777 : Won't happen period.....DL isn't in any position to purchase a sizeable interest in UA @ ORD....
150 Fewsolarge : I'm not commenting on the likelihood of this scenario, but what would UA do if DL and CO merged? And then what if US and NW followed?
151 Post contains images QFSYD744 : United Airlines literally threw away its Miami hub. At one time a gateway to Sao Paulo, Rio de Janeiro, Lima, Santiago, Buenos Aires, Caracas, Aruba,
152 STT757 : No way will CO merge with DL. It's one of the following scenarios; CO/UAL CO/NWA CO/AS CO/AS/NWA DL/AA DL/UAL DL/NWA NWA/CO NWA/DL NWA/AA NWA/US AA/D
153 Post contains images QFSYD744 : And one for questions sake: UAL sold of in bits and pieces.. Narita to DL/AA Heathrow to CO/AS/NWA SFO to DL/AA LAX to CO/AS/NWA ORD to DL/AA DEN to
154 PVG : If they merge with CO, why not sell TED and the Airbuses (are the engines compatable?) to B6 in exchange for an equity stake and cooperation/codeshar
155 QFSYD744 : B6 currently serves Oakland(SFO), Denver, and Washington. IAD. Of which Washington. IAD is a focus city for B6.
156 Flyibaby : I disagree; Alaska does have alot going for it in a merger. Alaska has been profitable for what..3 quarters now? Their Cargo operation appears to be
157 N174UA : Assuming of course the EU-US open skies agreement is implemented by the EU transportation ministers, but only after the US Gov't. lifts restrictions
158 Post contains links 102IAHexpress : I’m not against wasting bandwidth but I’m just curious, why the weekly need to talk about a merger that Kellner says will not happen? Do you guys
159 N844AA : I don't think anyone thinks that, but if UA came to CO and offered to give CO management control of the combined entity ... well, that'd be pretty mu
160 Fewsolarge : I said I wasn't commenting on the likelihood. Just what would UA do if both CO and DL were unavailable.
161 WorldTraveler : Actually, not every airline has done as good of a job in defending its hubs against incursion from LFC. In fact, UA and US have seen more LFC growth
162 Pictues : ok so if Continental buys United and Continental is the suriving name wouldn't CO still get the athorities United has? Isn't that how United got LHR a
163 ORD : United did not throw away its Miami hub. UA bought Pan Am's South American routres at a time when it was thought a hub could support two legacy airli
164 AirFrnt : Not really practical. B6 has the southwest++ model, where they hub exclusively out of large O&D markets. (in this case, LGB and JFK). UA and CO don't
165 Lemurs : Right...I have no idea where that concept is coming from. People talk about CO's widebody crunch, but they're pretty restricted with narrowbodies as
166 Post contains links AirFrnt : I am going to quote what I said for a third time, and maybe you can address it directly, instead of cherry picking a statistic that suits you: So out
167 DTWAGENT : Well if you want to go by managment. UA/NW would be the way I see it. Delta is starting to turn it's self around and they don't need the extra debt fr
168 PHLBOS : After scrolling through 165+ replies (which took some time); I am surprised that nobody asked this particular question (maybe I missed something)... a
169 QFSYD744 : United can very well sell its Heathrow operation, thus allowing CO into the market. And Narita would go out the window!
170 Slider : No, I think it would be retarded. Incompatible fleets, totally incompatible labor groups, the mess of integration, no freaking way. The ultimate grow
171 N844AA : Maybe so. In a perfect world, I would certainly agree that organic growth is the way to go. Though I'd point out a.) Gordon doesn't think a UA/CO mer
172 Klkla : A lot has changed in that period of time. 1 - The Bush administration has allowed mergers in other industries that were much less competitive than th
173 Lemurs : Too true on both accounts. The 2nd point is the big one. Antitrust is an important consideration when you're trying to maintain a healthy competitive
174 WorldTraveler : You folks continuing to talk about a CO-UA merger when Kellner himself says CO intends to stay independent and given the presence of the NW golden sha
175 Post contains images Jacobin777 : Unless UA shuts down, they won't be selling too much, if any ORD ops either..that's like DL selling its ATL ops or AA selling DFW ops..not happening.
176 AirFrnt : Absolutly. Unlike several years before, there is now a consensus that some consolidation has to be done in order for the market to survive. That's fa
177 Mariner : All have been profitable this last quarter - which appears to be your yardstick. A loss of market share (even at a hub) is irrelevant to my point. I
178 N174UA : Not under the current Bermuda II bilateral, it can't...it was a Herculean task transferring rights from TW and PA to AA and UA, respecitively back in
179 Antoniemey : And what do you consider AirTran?
180 Klkla : No doubt there are huge obsticles that would have to be overcome in order for this merger to happen. But, preferred stock is different from common st
181 Flyibaby : It depends really on which version of Continental you want to compare to. I would say the best move Bethune made after taking over from Ferguson or w
182 WorldTraveler : NW doesn't want the money - they want the revenue. The golden share is not for sale - at least not for a price any US airline could pay. AirTran has g
183 Mariner : The rightness or wrongness of GSO is a different debate. This one is about whether or not losing market share at a hub is a negative for an airline.
184 Lemurs : Except that the terms of the share appear to limit what NW can do with it. It is not sellable, transferable, or encumberable (meaning they can't list
185 WorldTraveler : no one disagrees that giving up some market share is ok as long as you decide what is core to the company and protect it. CO took the dramatic step o
186 Steeler83 : What would the major hubs/focus cities look like here? Something like the following? Hubs: DTW, MSP, EWR, IAH, oh yeah forgot about NRT... Focus Citi
187 Mariner : But you used it as a stick with which to beat US Airways: ??? mariner
188 WorldTraveler : why do you have such a hard time grasping the concept that US is giving up market share in its key hub cities to LFCs while other airlines are not? U
189 Post contains links Mariner : And why are you so condescending? I have no trouble "grasping" that point. I simply disagree - diametrically - with the value you assign to it. I wou
190 Steeler83 : Wait a minute... US is giving up market share in Phili and CLT??? I highly doubt that... I keep seeing how US is building up its fortress int'l gatew
191 Post contains images Mariner : I think you quoted the wrong person, I didn't make the claim, WorldTraveler did.   mariner[Edited 2006-09-28 06:45:04]
192 AirFrnt : Remember that the DEN decision wasn't driven by capacity. In fact, CO lost considerable capacity and route network by closing DEN. It was due to UA's
193 WorldTraveler : Obviously, Parker does see value in cutting capacity now in order to keep profitability up. But while no one is willing to predict anything in the ai
194 QFSYD744 : O/D from DTW and MSP to Asia is horrible. The majority of passengers on those routes are connecting. IAH O/D demand to and from Europe is much higher
195 BAW716 : World Traveler, One minor detail. NW is in bankruptcy. It's not their management that gets to decide, but the bankruptcy trustee and the judge. That N
196 Mariner : Until the merger, Mr. Parker spent all of his CEO life battling the biggest LCC at his two hubs - and surviving. I suspect he may know what he is doi
197 Steeler83 : I quoted your response to WorldTraveler's quote. I don't know why that wasn't indicated. I know that WT made that statement... Then I suppose that th
198 DeltaSFO : That analysis is somewhat simplistic, but I wouldn't necessarily disagree with it. I saw in a later comment that you mentioned you felt CO's int'l ro
199 PVG : [http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/286886_boeing28ww.html] Question for Mr. Boyd and supporters: If capacity is not an issue and it's so easy to
200 Airlinespotter : What are you talking about? DL will have the financial strength to make it happen? Let me remind you the fact is, beside NW, DL IS IN BANKCRUPCY PROT
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