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Airtran/Southwest Combined?  
User currently offlineQuickmover From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2494 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 12 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 5371 times:

Maybe this is off the wall thinking, but with all the UAL potential merger talk, I'm thinking a WN/FL merger would make sense for both carriers IMO.

FL is now up against a much leaner Delta in ATL. FL's response, so far, is cutting planned growth next year.

I'm sure Delta is disappointed about that.

Southwest isn't as accomodating for the competition as Airtran is. They are adding jets and market share. They would like to add more 737s if they could get them. FL has several 737s and alot more on order. WN would like to move into ATL. WN has overlooked different fleet types in the past (ATA), so the 717s might not be an issue.

Just speculation, but stranger things have happened.

40 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCessna057 From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 439 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (7 years 12 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 5343 times:

I personaly do not think it could work out. They have conflicting buisness plans and many of the same destinations. But, on the other hand, their focus city at BWI could be expanded into a hub. Still, I don't think it could happen.


Hold it . . . Hold it . . . HOLD THE FREAKIN NOSE UP!!
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 12 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 5278 times:

Quoting Quickmover (Thread starter):
WN has overlooked different fleet types in the past (ATA), so the 717s might not be an issue.

Southwest did indeed run a 727-200 back in the late-1970s, and a half-dozen in the mid-1980s, and even had Transtar's small fleet of MD80s operating as a subsidiary (for a short while in the 1980s, until they were liquidated), but all those are small potatoes when it comes to inheriting what, 75-80 717s?

FWIW, of all the rumors running around here, a WN/FL merger/acquisition isn't one of them....


User currently offlineJetdeltamsy From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2987 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (7 years 12 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5257 times:

I don't see WN deviating from their business model. They don't need to. They are highly profitable and have the kinks worked out of their network.

When they purchased TranStar (formerly MuseAir), they just shut it down rather than integrate it into Southwest.

There have been other mergers (Morris Air) where they integrated the networks, but there was aircraft commonality.

I don't see this happening with FL flying so many B717's.

I do, however, think FL is a prime merger canidadate in the next few years.



Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
User currently offlineEmSeeEye From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 508 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 12 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5257 times:

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 2):
even had Transtar's small fleet of MD80s operating as a subsidiary (for a short while in the 1980s, until they were liquidated),

Wasnt that Muse air?


User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 12 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5249 times:

Quoting EmSeeEye (Reply 4):

Wasnt that Muse air?

As originally formed, yes, but they later changed the name and that's what it was when we acquired them...


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[Edited 2006-09-26 04:47:54]

User currently offlineATLAaron From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1023 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (7 years 12 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5236 times:
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Quoting Quickmover (Thread starter):
WN would like to move into ATL.

Says who?


User currently offlineJerion From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 253 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (7 years 12 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5170 times:

What about AirTran and Alaska??
Could that work?



L10/D9S/D10/M80/M88/732/733/734/735/73G/738/72S/757/762/763/320/319/318/ERJ
User currently offlineJetBlueAtJFK From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1687 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (7 years 12 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5139 times:

Quoting Jerion (Reply 7):
What about AirTran and Alaska??
Could that work?

Actually the route maps would blend well together. FL is strong on the East coast and AS on the west coast. Would blend nicely. Also they both have 737's so that is good but then FL has 717's and AS has the MD80's. I guess they could have all 3 because they already have the parts and everything but they could pick one and dump one, most likely the Md-80's if they aren't already (Don't really keep up with AS so fill me in).

B6jfk airplane 



When You Know jetBlue, You Know Better
User currently offlineCessna057 From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 439 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (7 years 12 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5128 times:

Quoting Jerion (Reply 7):
What about AirTran and Alaska??
Could that work?

That is deffinitly something that could possibly work. Route maps compliment each other and equipment is fairly similar (733/73G/738)



Hold it . . . Hold it . . . HOLD THE FREAKIN NOSE UP!!
User currently offlineB6WNQX From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 245 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 12 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5121 times:

Quoting JetBlueAtJFK (Reply 8):
AS has the MD80's



Quoting JetBlueAtJFK (Reply 8):
(Don't really keep up with AS so fill me in).

If I remember correctly they are supposed to have all Mad Dogs out fo the system by 2008. They increased their order for 738's in order to get rid of them as well as performing some lease buy backs on their MD-80's to make it easier to get rid of them. Feel free to correct me if I am mistaken.


User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5582 posts, RR: 28
Reply 11, posted (7 years 12 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5062 times:

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 2):
FWIW, of all the rumors running around here, a WN/FL merger/acquisition isn't one of them....

That just means it's TRUE!!  Smile

Quoting Cessna057 (Reply 9):
That is deffinitly something that could possibly work. Route maps compliment each other and equipment is fairly similar (733/73G/738)

It would be 717/MD80(for now)/734/73G/738/739. So essentially 717/734/737NG. Not bad, but do either of them gain much by a merger? There is a lot of territory between them - it reminds me a lot of the USAir+PSA merger.

I do agree that AirTran would appear to be a carrier that might be involved in a merger in the next few years. They haven't seemed to be as aggressive in their growth into new the west, and appear to be hesitating a little on their growth. Their strong SE franchise offers someone a nice alternative to Delta in a very busy market. I guess we'll see.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26499 posts, RR: 75
Reply 12, posted (7 years 12 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5045 times:

Quoting JetBlueAtJFK (Reply 8):
Quoting Jerion (Reply 7):
What about AirTran and Alaska??
Could that work?

Actually the route maps would blend well together. FL is strong on the East coast and AS on the west coast

Can anyone say USAir/PSA? They would still have no strength in the middle of the country. Now, if only F9 had 737s, a 3 way merger would be a juggernaut

Quoting JetBlueAtJFK (Reply 8):
FL has 717's and AS has the MD80's.

There is little if any commonality between the two and definately no pilot commonality.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5582 posts, RR: 28
Reply 13, posted (7 years 12 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5035 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 12):
Now, if only F9 had 737s, a 3 way merger would be a juggernaut

That's what I was thinking, but indeed the fleet seems like a deal breaker. Could you imagine an A32X/73G/717 fleet? Plus morsels of 734's and MD80's? Well, it'd be interesting, that's for sure!

What about the oft-mentioned AirTran+Midwest, with Alaska thrown in? Hmmm...

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlineQuickmover From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2494 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 12 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4848 times:

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 3):
I don't see WN deviating from their business model. They don't need to. They are highly profitable and have the kinks worked out of their network.

I don't think WN would deviate from their model. The 737G modifications would only require taking out the business class and paint. As for the 717s, I'm sure Boeing could find a buyer for that fleet somewhere in the world. WN is a very important customer for Boeing.


User currently offlineSeeTheWorld From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1325 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (7 years 12 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4821 times:

Quoting Quickmover (Thread starter):
WN would like to move into ATL.



Quoting ATLAaron (Reply 6):
Says who?

Well, all one has to do is look at WN's route map to see a few glaring ommissions in large cities where they have absolutely ZERO penetration, i.e. ATL, MSP, CLT. That won't last much longer - couple of years at most I would think.


User currently offlineQuickmover From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2494 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 12 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4792 times:

Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 15):
Well, all one has to do is look at WN's route map to see a few glaring ommissions in large cities where they have absolutely ZERO penetration, i.e. ATL, MSP, CLT. That won't last much longer - couple of years at most I would think.

The so called experts said WN would never go to PHL or DEN either. I agree that it's only a matter of time until they come to ATL. If they combined with FL, they could instantly have gates and planes for ATL use. The other outstations may or may not be needed, depending on WN's facilities in each city. The 717s could slowly be phased out as more 737s are built.


User currently offlineN200WN From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 784 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (7 years 12 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4694 times:

I've always thought WN and FL would make a nice combination. If there's to be consolidation in the network ranks I don't see why it also wouldn't happen to some extent in the LCC ranks as well. I think B6 and F9 would make a good match.

User currently offlineCloudy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (7 years 12 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4674 times:

Quoting Quickmover (Reply 16):

The so called experts said WN would never go to PHL or DEN either. I agree that it's only a matter of time until they come to ATL.

Agreed, but Atlanta is probably the last major market they will enter. Airtran is a pretty good competitor. However, WN has gotten to the point now where it can enter virtually any sizable market and do well just with trafic originating at their strong points(MDW, LAS, etc.). If they enter ATL soon, we may end up seeing a Detroit-style profitable but stagnent operation. The same could happen to DEN if they can't win enough local originating traffic in the long term.

If we go by Southwest's recent behavior, the next sizable market they enter will probably be MSP or some other hub that has a dominate legacy carrier but no strong LCC presence.


User currently offlineAirFRNT From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2826 posts, RR: 42
Reply 19, posted (7 years 12 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4509 times:

Quoting Quickmover (Thread starter):
FL is now up against a much leaner Delta in ATL. FL's response, so far, is cutting planned growth next year.

I'm sure Delta is disappointed about that.

FL's growth slowdown is partially a reflection of the market, partially a reflection of the fact that they are being strangled in ATL by space considerations. DL is doing everything they can to make sure that FL doesn't have room to expand.

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 3):
I do, however, think FL is a prime merger canidadate in the next few years.

I think it's not insane to expect to see WN in ATL by hook or crook shortly. DEN has proven that they can enter a established market with a major and with a LCC in the same market. Now that being said, I don't know where WN would get the 3-6 gates that they would need to make the operation profitable.

As far as FL with a merger, I once sat next to a bigwig in FL who openly speculated about a F9/FL merger. FL has no real west coast prescence, so I would expect to see a merger with a airline that had good west coast prescence.


User currently offlineMidway2airtran From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 864 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (7 years 12 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4493 times:

I do see AirTran possibly joining a alliance, which would most likely be a possibility as to a full blown merger. If there was a merger, it would be better IMO to merge with a major carrier with large International route system that AirTran could cooperate with to feed. Keeping both brands seprate but equal. This way, a combined network can be diverisfied and not so dependent on domestic travel as a merger with a fellow typical LCC.

Quoting Jerion (Reply 7):
What about AirTran and Alaska??
Could that work?

I've thought about that before, but where is the synergy when a blight of trans-con service already exists.

Quoting Quickmover (Reply 14):
I don't think WN would deviate from their model.

Their business model has adjusted from its original form as the environment has called for it. If there was the apropriate situation for a WN-FL merger, IMO the merger would have a better chance of success than many other combinations.



"Life is short, but your delay in ATL is not."
User currently offlineSeeTheWorld From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1325 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (7 years 12 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4467 times:

Quoting Cloudy (Reply 18):
Agreed, but Atlanta is probably the last major market they will enter. Airtran is a pretty good competitor. However, WN has gotten to the point now where it can enter virtually any sizable market and do well just with trafic originating at their strong points(MDW, LAS, etc.). If they enter ATL soon, we may end up seeing a Detroit-style profitable but stagnent operation. The same could happen to DEN if they can't win enough local originating traffic in the long term.

If we go by Southwest's recent behavior, the next sizable market they enter will probably be MSP or some other hub that has a dominate legacy carrier but no strong LCC presence.

I wouldn't be surprised if ATL was the final large city after MSP (and CLT). Frankly, I suspect they will do an IAD-like operation in ATL where they go in with 20-30 flights so as to tap into some incremental revenue and add the city as a business and leisure destination. Like IAD, if the 20-30 flights perform well and there are more opportunities then they will grow, if not, they will just provide limited service indefinitely.


User currently offlineUnited319 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 523 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 12 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3063 times:
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Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 3):
I do, however, think FL is a prime merger canidadate in the next few years.

I will quit AirTran Airways on the day that we decide to merge with southwest airlines, though we have fleet cominality and we are both low cost carriers, the business models are very different, and so are our products. The only rumours that I could see happening would be an FL/F9 merger, or FL buying out midwest airlines. I know there is a lot to argue, its just what ive heard.



It's Time To Fly
User currently offlineQFSYD744 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 12 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2915 times:

Quoting Quickmover (Thread starter):
I'm thinking a WN/FL merger would make sense for both carriers IMO.

WN in the Atlanta market is something that Delta Airlines does not need anytime soon. Atlanta is delay prone, even more so than LAX, and MDW. The thought of WN with a base in ATL does not make sense. However, WN would not mind taking over the Florida and New York routes operated by FL. However, if WN wanted they could increase Florida op's. Slots at LGA are a problem, and that is something than FL can deliver to WN. FL, so far has been doing good when going against WN in MDW. Keep in mind that honeymoon of sorts is not going to last.

Frontier/Jet Blue makes very good sense. Yet as can be seen time and time again that idea has been shot down by many.

Alaska/Midwest makes good sense. Both airlines are known for their quality product, however, the routes may not compliment each other as well as one may have hoped for.

Spirit/Sun Country would make sense, in the oddest of Worlds. It would be ironic and a blow to Northwest Airlines if these two airlines merged into one. The airline would be based in both Detroit and Minneapolis and causing a more than severe headache for chaotic Northwest Airlines, and their almost stagnant efforts to revitalise their image.


User currently offlineJetBlueAtJFK From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1687 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (7 years 12 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2868 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 12):

There is little if any commonality between the two and definately no pilot commonality.

I know that was my point. The 717 and the Md80 are different.

Quoting B6WNQX (Reply 10):
If I remember correctly they are supposed to have all Mad Dogs out fo the system by 2008. They increased their order for 738's in order to get rid of them as well as performing some lease buy backs on their MD-80's to make it easier to get rid of them. Feel free to correct me if I am mistaken.

Sounds good to me, thank you!

B6jfk airplane 



When You Know jetBlue, You Know Better
25 Travatl : I've thought for a while a FL/AS merger would do well... Looking at the route maps, it wouldn't take much to make it a nice operation. The key would p
26 Steeler83 : Throw in PIT with this as well, with the outrageous landing fees and other operating costs. There was talk of them entering CLT, but I don't know if/
27 WDBRR : I totally agree...Frontier/Jetblue would be a marriage made in heaven. they both would compliment each other on routes east and west coasts and both
28 Flyboyaz : I still think a FL/YX merger would make sense....
29 Quickmover : I like that idea too, but I'm not sure what they would do with MKE if it happened. FL has tried to make MDW a focus city. Would it make sense to focu
30 Dacman : Even though I work for Southwest Airlines and LUV the MD95 (717-200) and would like nothing more than to see this DAC beauty in the WN livery this is
31 Steeler83 : Not to mention, aircraft type... They both bly A319/A320 aircraft. I am not sure of the fate of the E90s though if this were to happen
32 Steeler83 : Not to mention, aircraft type... They both bly A319/A320 aircraft. I am not sure of the fate of the E90s though if this were to happen
33 ScottB : I'm not as bullish on MCI for YX. In most markets from MCI where WN and YX compete directly, WN enjoys a revenue premium and/or larger market share.
34 B6WNQX : Anytime, glad to help. I think the only problem would be the A318 & E190 issue. They are designed for more or less the same mission. F9 loves their A
35 Antoniemey : I wouldn't... I'm sure Neeleman would have too much ego to let go of his airline's name, and the animals on the tails just wouldn't work with the nam
36 Post contains links EmSeeEye : Correct, B6 uses the V2500 and F9 has the CFM's. I think US/HP and F9 are the only Airbus/CFM operators in the US. http://www.cfm56.com/news/press/20
37 Vctony : NW is another US based A320 operatior that uses CFMs.
38 Rampart : Actually, if I recall, WN bought Muse, then renamed it to Transtar as a subsidiary until dismantling/absorbing it. Lamar Muse, one of WN's founders,
39 TxAgKuwait : Very good memory. Another few fun facts. The TranStar subsidiary began making a profit in, as I recall, July or August of 1985. TranStar as a wholly
40 EmSeeEye : BAck in the early 80's we lived in Houston and my uncle lived in Ft Worth. About once every couple of months he used to travel to Houston on Muse Air
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