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Why No Props At ORD?  
User currently offlineFlyingNanook From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 830 posts, RR: 12
Posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 7030 times:

Hi all,

I was just thinking of the many times I've transitted ORD on my way to or from OSH and the various planes that flew that route. Then I realized that, after scheduled service ended to OSH and I had to fly RJ's to ATW, I haven't seen any props at ORD when transitting there. Why are there no more prop planes flying to ORD? It can't be just because of size because Q400's are larger than CRJ200's, but the CRJ's are flying there while the Dash8's are not.

So can anybody help me figure out why all the props have left ORD?


Semper ubi sub ubi.
42 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4050 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 7010 times:

Quite honestly I think the slot control at ORD makes props impractical. How many smaller and older model CRJ-100/200s (50 seaters) do you see at ORD? If airlines are smart, they are also a minority and will become scarce there as well.


DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineKtachiya From Japan, joined Sep 2004, 1794 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 6994 times:

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 1):
Quite honestly I think the slot control at ORD makes props impractical

Hmm..... well I don't know about the numbers of rwys at ORD but I would presume because it is because its approach speed is slower than jets. On the other hand, it can cause problems when taxiing. I've seen this many times at YVR. I know that NRT does props, but thats limited to only a few flights per day. I think it can affect the final approach course of other jets. Just my guess



Flown on: DC-10-30, B747-200B, B747-300, B747-300SR, B747-400, B747-400D, B767-300, B777-200, B777-200ER, B777-300
User currently offlineAirfinair From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 667 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 6894 times:

You could trace the end of the props at ORD to the crash of American Eagle 4184 in 1994, due to icing on that particular ATR-72. After this crash, AMR stopped using the props in the northern cities, both for safety reasons and for public relations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Eagle_Flight_4184

I would even go so far as to say that this event started the widespread use (or overuse!) and popularity of regional jets in the U.S. First, Amercan pulls the ATR's from ORD. Passengers love the smooth flights and speed. Other airlines take notice and begin using them also. Just a thought.



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User currently offlineKnope2001 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2897 posts, RR: 30
Reply 4, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 6871 times:

In great part it is due to the competition between United and American, the only two players in the ORD regional market. AA* went all-jet at ORD several years ago and boasted of that advantage, and so UA* responded in kind.

Certainly limited resources (slots) and cost to operate at the airport played a big role in weeding out props in the 1990s, but the AA* / UA* battle is also key.


User currently offlineIahflyr From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 5, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 6828 times:

Quoting Ktachiya (Reply 2):
Hmm..... well I don't know about the numbers of rwys at ORD but I would presume because it is because its approach speed is slower than jets. On the other hand, it can cause problems when taxiing. I've seen this many times at YVR. I know that NRT does props, but thats limited to only a few flights per day. I think it can affect the final approach course of other jets. Just my guess

The props such as ATR's, Dash8's, E120's and SF34's actually do not have any impact on approach speeds of jets....other than taking up a slot for the most part these type of turbo-props are very capable of approach speeds up to a 5 mile final equal to the jets and inside often much faster or can be faster than the jet if needed even though touchdown speeds a bit slower.



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineGoldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 6015 posts, RR: 14
Reply 6, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 6804 times:

Good examples of mixed jet and turboprop operations are SLC, LAX, SFO, SEA, and PDX. A good portion of traffic at these cities are turboprop.


Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 6768 times:

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 6):
Good examples of mixed jet and turboprop operations are SLC, LAX, SFO, SEA, and PDX.

ANC, FAI

Big jets (747s), small jets (737s), big props (DC6s), small props (Otters, Metroliners, Dash-8s, 1900s)


User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4105 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 6567 times:

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 1):
How many smaller and older model CRJ-100/200s (50 seaters) do you see at ORD?

I take it you've never been to ORD...


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User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11559 posts, RR: 62
Reply 9, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 6563 times:

Quoting Airfinair (Reply 3):
You could trace the end of the props at ORD to the crash of American Eagle 4184 in 1994, due to icing on that particular ATR-72. After this crash, AMR stopped using the props in the northern cities, both for safety reasons and for public relations.

???

Eagle continued to use ATRs out of O'Hare for fully six years after the 1994 ATR72 crash. Eagle used ATRs on many shorter-range routes out of ORD like BMI, CMI, PIA, SPI, MKE, SBN, etc. up until the entire operation transitioned to RJs in November 2000, making it the nation's first all-RJ hub. It had nothign to do with ATRs' safety. It was a marketing point to differentiate from United at O'Hare, which was still using a good deal of props (ATP, Do328, etc.) on its shorter United Express flights.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22925 posts, RR: 20
Reply 10, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 6553 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 9):
It was a marketing point to differentiate from United at O'Hare, which was still using a good deal of props (ATP, Do328, etc.) on its shorter United Express flights.

That's the key. It's the interplay of AA and UA. At DFW, there was never any need for MQ to crush EV with "all jets" advertising because AA was so much bigger than was DL. At ATL, DL uses ATRs to markets that FL doesn't even serve. The huge number of regional routes with competition was the key to the race away from props at ORD.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineMu2 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 210 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 6294 times:

It's not because of approach speed, that's for sure. I am told to slow to 160 all the time because I'm trailing a jet. The dash can do 210 to inside 5 miles, then flight idle, props 1200 and it will stop and fall out of the sky!

User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9612 posts, RR: 52
Reply 12, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 6255 times:

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 6):
Good examples of mixed jet and turboprop operations are SLC, LAX, SFO, SEA, and PDX. A good portion of traffic at these cities are turboprop.

The west coast with the exception of SFO is incredibly different than the midwest. The west coast has tons of props. SEA has very few regional jets and has tons of props operated by Horizon and United Express. In the midwest and east coast, regional jets gained more popularity.

I think slot restrictions have played a big role. United is moving towards 70 seat regional jets at ORD and are moving away from the 50 seat jets. American Eagle still has tons of ERJs.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineHPAEAA From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1024 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 6241 times:

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 12):
The west coast with the exception of SFO is incredibly different than the midwest. The west coast has tons of props. SEA has very few regional jets and has tons of props operated by Horizon and United Express. In the midwest and east coast, regional jets gained more popularity.

I think slot restrictions have played a big role. United is moving towards 70 seat regional jets at ORD and are moving away from the 50 seat jets. American Eagle still has tons of ERJs.

Slots have played some role.. AA has has backed off the capacity at ORD and is rather persuing the O&D Market there... by using the regionals and moving some of the CR7's that they have to the DFW base the are limiting the amoung of connecting seats there... helps at the ATO when ORD goes to hell and none of the people on the plane are connecting! Now I'm not saying they have eliminated the connecting traffic rather, are working to reduce it due to the problems there.



Why do I fly???
User currently offlineCessna057 From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 439 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 6241 times:

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 1):
honestly I think the slot control at ORD makes props impractical

Yea i deffinitly agree. The slot system at ORD has detered many airlines from going there and using MDW instead, for small planes at least.



Hold it . . . Hold it . . . HOLD THE FREAKIN NOSE UP!!
User currently offlineAreopagus From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1369 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6208 times:

Quoting Iahflyr (Reply 5):
The props such as ATR's, Dash8's, E120's and SF34's actually do not have any impact on approach speeds of jets

I was listening in to channel 9 on a UAL flight into ORD, when I heard control request a turboprop to increase its approach speed if able. A little later, the same request was repeated, and then again a third time. Finally, the controller ordered our airliner to go around. The extra half hour we had to spend in the air, together with the hour of ground hold at SJC for Chicago weather, caused us to miss our connection. We ended up arriving at MIA about eight ours late, which wouldn't have happened if the turboprop had been able to comply with the request to fly at the same approach speed as the jets.


User currently offlineCarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2954 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6169 times:

I am not exactly current on ORD ops but has LAHSO operations affected how ORD operates?
During a south-wind, Runway 14L can be used as a LAHSO landing runway. With only 5,000 ft of runway before the intersection of 22R, AA Eagle ATRs and UAX ATPs would use this runway. With RJs this would not be a very safe method of operations.
With a west-wind, Runway 27R or 22R can be either used as a LAHSO landing runway. This is for only VFR operations and everything falls apart if bad weather comes in.

Last time ORD had regular prop traffic was when ZK had their BE1 & EM2 and Air Wisconsin with their Dornier 328s more than three years ago.


User currently offlineSTLGph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9345 posts, RR: 26
Reply 17, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6169 times:

Quoting Areopagus (Reply 15):
which wouldn't have happened if the turboprop had been able to comply with the request to fly at the same approach speed as the jets.

from what i understand from speaking with pilots, it is not so much the speed of the props that is the issue - it is the matter that the jets aren't able to slow down as easily.



if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22925 posts, RR: 20
Reply 18, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6101 times:

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 16):
During a south-wind, Runway 14L can be used as a LAHSO landing runway. With only 5,000 ft of runway before the intersection of 22R, AA Eagle ATRs and UAX ATPs would use this runway. With RJs this would not be a very safe method of operations.

This is correct. 18-36 was decommisioned once props had left the airport as nothing scheduled could use it. It was 5000 feet long.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineCWAFlyer From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 669 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5885 times:

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 16):
I am not exactly current on ORD ops but has LAHSO operations affected how ORD operates?
During a south-wind, Runway 14L can be used as a LAHSO landing runway. With only 5,000 ft of runway before the intersection of 22R, AA Eagle ATRs and UAX ATPs would use this runway. With RJs this would not be a very safe method of operations.
With a west-wind, Runway 27R or 22R can be either used as a LAHSO landing runway. This is for only VFR operations and everything falls apart if bad weather comes in.

Last time ORD had regular prop traffic was when ZK had their BE1 & EM2 and Air Wisconsin with their Dornier 328s more than three years ago.

RJ's can and do use LAHSO, but I have never heard or seen a plane doing it on 14L. LAHSO is great until the runways get wet.


User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 20, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5881 times:

Quoting Areopagus (Reply 15):
was listening in to channel 9 on a UAL flight into ORD, when I heard control request a turboprop to increase its approach speed if able. A little later, the same request was repeated, and then again a third time. Finally, the controller ordered our airliner to go around. The extra half hour we had to spend in the air, together with the hour of ground hold at SJC for Chicago weather, caused us to miss our connection. We ended up arriving at MIA about eight ours late, which wouldn't have happened if the turboprop had been able to comply with the request to fly at the same approach speed as the jets.

Not sure of your specific situation but I will tell you they are more than capable of keeping up on final, now if other things have created an unworkable sequence sure then someone is going around but it isn't due to the aircraft mentioned in your quote of my post not being able to fly with the airliners in jets.



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 21, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5865 times:

Quoting STLGph (Reply 17):
it is the matter that the jets aren't able to slow down as easily.

An excellent point....and put that into the mix of possibly being "a little high, good thing cuzz they're plenty fast"  Smile that even makes it more fun to fit into an arrival pack. If the controller didn't plan the final sequence correctly that jet that is not slowing as rapidly as the preceding t/p is again going to hear those words....turn right heading 350, climb and maintain 3,000!



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineDC8FanJet From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 397 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5857 times:

The AA/UA marketing did props at ORD in, pure & simple. AAEagle went all jet, UAExpress followed. Actually, having an "all jet" airport has increased traffic issues to some degree as everything is now approaching ORD high & fast as compared to the old days when the props made their initial approaches lower and slower and only had to be blended in for the final.

User currently offlineAirfinair From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 667 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 5676 times:

Quoting DC8FanJet (Reply 22):
The AA/UA marketing did props at ORD in, pure & simple. AAEagle went all jet, UAExpress followed.

Excellent point. Can you offer you opinion on why AAEagle went all props and when the start of the transition occured? As I posted earlier in the thread, I have always felt that the negative publicity given the AAEagle 4184 icing accident could have been the begining of the end for AAEagle props at ORD and other northern cities. Once AA started transitioning to RJ's and marketing the "comforts and speed of RJ service," UAL followed, and then other airlines. I would love to hear your thoughts.



ORD,MDW,IND,ARB,AMS,AUS,ANQ,DTW,DEN,PHL,PIT,MIA,GPT,SAN,PHX,LAX,SFO,OAK,SEA,LAS,SLC,SMF,ATL,MEM,BOS,MHT,JFK,EWR,LGA,NASâ
User currently offlineDC8FanJet From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 397 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 5595 times:

As best I can recall, AA had already made decision prior to 4184, but someone else may have more info on that. Turboprops have improved considerably since then, the Q series would make much more sense financially, but I don't see either carrier blinking first.

25 Commavia : One had nothing to do with the other. They were in no way connected. Eagle 4184 crashed in Roselawn on October 31, 1994. American Eagle didn't even b
26 Boeing7E7 : Quite a few and ERJ's too. That had nothing to do with it. It was a race to be an all jet hub in the 90's. Mostly driven by Delta at CVG serving all
27 Mikefad : I remember the buzz surrounding the switch to all jets at O'hare several years ago. The main thing that stands out is the 'perception factor' as far a
28 Charlienorth : I worked at AMR Eagle at O'Hare for over 8 years,the switch to jets had nothing to do with 4184,it was strictly marketing.Istartedin they '90's,the fi
29 Airfinair : Not due to Eagle 4184. Thanks for the clarification, guys.
30 N1120A : You are kidding, right? In what way? Most Dash-8s are the same size or larger than the majority of RJs. If anything, it is the RJs that are eating up
31 Post contains images Cessna057 : The French are so nice and understanding.    Let me let you in on a little secret which isnt really a secret. It doesnt matter if a turboprop is CA
32 Ckfred : There is still a lot of connecting traffic for AA at ORD. If you arrive at ORD, the F/A still reads a laundry list of connecting gates (And I'm amaze
33 Ampropilot2b : Actually Cessna, jets don't land at 250 kts either. I have piloted both the E120 and the CRJ,CR7. With the E120, you could maintain 250kts much closer
34 Knope2001 : I find it very interesting to hear the connecting info on feeder flights like this. Often some rather unexpected destinations! But there are a number
35 Scaledesigns : The runway 36 was only used by very small aircraft and Air Wisconsin Dash 7s.It still crossed 9L-27R,so they had no advantage to use it.Plus it counte
36 Cessna057 : Yeah I know but the landing speed is still much less than a jet.
37 AADC10 : West coast aiports have props because aside from not being slot restricted (ORD is not formally slot restricted but the agreement has essentially the
38 Ckfred : Those are good reasons. But on my last trip from ATL, the F/A announced gate information for flights to LAX and LGA. It just strikes me as odd to go
39 HPAEAA : Cheers!, I'll admit, my DFW employer has me fly AA no matter what. Sometimes on the road trips it requires odd routing's but they still want me flyin
40 ORDagent : When I worked for AA in the '90s we were told we had 30% O&D which for a hub is huge. AA's slogan for Eagle was "nothing but jets" and the fantastic g
41 Cubsrule : That's correct, though they're closer than they have been with the relocation of a fair number of CR7s and E70s to the low C gates.
42 Remford : One of the primary reasons is the competitive hub ORD is between AA and UA. Back when all of the regionals and feeders were considering fleet renewal
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