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Report: El-Al Flight Dived Over London (1/10/06)  
User currently offlineJFK69 From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1420 posts, RR: 1
Posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 11373 times:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...ename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

An El Al flight carrying 450 passengers briefly went into a dive over London earlier this year, falling 2,800 feet (400 meters) after a glitch in its electronic landing system, authorities said Wednesday.

The airline's Boeing 747 was 10 miles (15 kilometers) east of London's Heathrow airport on Jan. 10 and flying on autopilot towards the airport when the aircraft began to descend from 4,000 feet (1,200 meters), according to a British aviation authority report.

An onboard system ordered the aircraft to continue descending and the plane fell on autopilot to a height of 1,200 feet (365 meters), the report said.

"The computer system recovered," a spokesman for the Department of Transport said while speaking on condition of anonymity in line with departmental policy.

Crew members noted the incident in a log but did not submit an incident report after arriving at Heathrow. Investigators did not find out until weeks later and posted their report on the Internet earlier this month.

Investigators concluded that the incident was caused by a failure of the plane's glidescope, part of a system which tracks flight path and angle of descent during landing, the spokesman said.

Authorities declined to specify the city from which the plane originated. El Al was not immediately available for comment.

23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 11286 times:

Quote:
Authorities declined to specify the city from which the plane originated.

Umm...just a guess...but probably Tel Aviv?  stirthepot 

Much like the BA 747 incident out of LAX, it sounds like the crew felt they had the situation under control and didn't want to make it a full blown "incident".



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 11219 times:

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/publications/...er_2006/boeing_747_412__4x_els.cfm

In this incident, the risk was minimal because visibility
below the 1,500 ft cloud base would have permitted the
flight crew to gain visual contact with terrain in good
time to avoid any Controlled Flight Into Terrain (CFIT)
hazard. Had the cloud base been lower, the aircraft’s
GPWS should also have provided a timely warning of
proximity to the ground.


User currently offlinePhilhyde From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 678 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 11128 times:

Quote:
In this incident, the risk was minimal because visibility
below the 1,500 ft cloud base would have permitted the
flight crew to gain visual contact with terrain in good
time to avoid any Controlled Flight Into Terrain (CFIT)
hazard. Had the cloud base been lower, the aircraft’s
GPWS should also have provided a timely warning of
proximity to the ground.

Provided there were no glitches in those systems!  duck 



HoustonSpotters Admin - Canon junkie - Aviation Nut
User currently offlineTodaReisinger From Switzerland, joined Mar 2001, 2807 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 10820 times:

El Al has a very small fleet (about 35 planes), but there are too often reports of serious incidents.

A 737 also "dived" just after it took off from Moscow a few months ago because of a malfunction in the auto pilot. The incident was described as very serious.
More recently, another 737 lost part of a wing while flying over Italy (it was an 80cm wide part according to the media reports).
And there were more reports of incidents over the last few years and months. There is obviously something going wrong.



I bitterly miss the livery that should never have been changed (repetition...)
User currently offlineLemurs From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1439 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 10796 times:

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 1):
Umm...just a guess...but probably Tel Aviv?

Not necessarily, if it was one of their cargo craft...it could be making rounds around the EU picking up and dropping off...you're almost certainly right, but it's not 100%.  Smile



There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
User currently offlineTodaReisinger From Switzerland, joined Mar 2001, 2807 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 10748 times:

Quoting Lemurs (Reply 5):
Not necessarily, if it was one of their cargo craft



Quoting JFK69 (Thread starter):
An El Al flight carrying 450 passengers

A cargo plane with 450 pax...?


But anyway, this incident seems to have been somehing really serious and thus frightening. I hope we'll know what happened, but that's far from certain.



I bitterly miss the livery that should never have been changed (repetition...)
User currently offlineLemurs From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1439 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 10685 times:

Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 6):
A cargo plane with 450 pax...?

Ooops...I read the snipet when it was first posted and then forgot that detail. Doh.



There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
User currently offlineBAtriple7 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 227 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 10361 times:

A glitch like that is quite serious.

However, I have problems with the use of the word 'dove'....was it really a dive? Autopilots usually make the aircraftd descend, not dive. And airliners definitely don't 'fall' on autopilot as the article suggests.


User currently offlineDon81603 From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 1185 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 8916 times:

Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 6):
A cargo plane with 450 pax...?

Talk about your cattle class taken to the limits! Big grin



Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
User currently offlinePilotaydin From Turkey, joined Sep 2004, 2539 posts, RR: 51
Reply 10, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 8888 times:

yeah something is incorrect here, if the a/c started diving, waiting 2800 feet is a LONG time for the crew to respond, also, for a 2800 dive to stop and come out, there would be a lot of vertical space required, i really dont think this story is accurate at all....


The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
User currently offlineNed Kelly From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2001, 415 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 7784 times:

I saw this last night on the London local news, the local MP for Barnes in west London was "very concerned" over this incident. The news report ended by saying El Al "refused to comment".

Here is a link to the official report by the AIAB (Air Accidents Investigation Branch). If you follow the link down to the bottom of the page you will see a full copy of the report in pdf. format.

http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/publicati...er_2006/boeing_747_412__4x_els.cfm

Sorry to duplicate the link, I somehow missed it above in 777236ER's post.
p.s. The date of the incident was 10/01/06.

[Edited 2006-09-28 16:35:46]

[Edited 2006-09-28 16:37:03]

User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9545 posts, RR: 42
Reply 12, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 7648 times:

Quoting JFK69 (Thread starter):
Crew members noted the incident in a log but did not submit an incident report after arriving at Heathrow. Investigators did not find out until weeks later and posted their report on the Internet earlier this month.

That puzzles me a bit but what do I know?

Quoting JFK69 (Thread starter):
Investigators concluded that the incident was caused by a failure of the plane's glidescope, part of a system which tracks flight path and angle of descent during landing, the spokesman said.

Aircraft have glideslopes now? (Sorry, JFK69, I know you're just the messenger).

From the AAIB report linked above:

"Investigations revealed no fault, either on the aircraft or in the ground equipment, to explain the incident."


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7739 posts, RR: 17
Reply 13, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 7534 times:

Quoting Ned Kelly (Reply 11):
The date of the incident was 10/01/06.

In British English it was 10/1/06 but in American English it was 1/10/06. So even if you are 'flying' a British/English/Scottish/Welsh or American flag it would hely everyone if dates were put in a 1 Jan 06 format to eliminate any confusion. Thanks.


User currently offlineYYZatcboy From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1093 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 7363 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CUSTOMER SERVICE & SUPPORT

Why doesn't everyone follow Date/Month/Year like normal people??

Sounds kind of like the AF343 at YYZ but in reverse. (too low instead of too high)



DHC1/3/4 MD11/88 L1011 A319/20/21/30 B727 735/6/7/8/9 762/3 E175/90 CRJ/700/705 CC150. J/S DH8D 736/7/8
User currently offlineDaus From United States of America, joined May 2005, 289 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 7363 times:

Interesting story. It gives you an idea of how delicate our world has become. If an Isreali 747 had been perceived to have been brought down by terrorists over central London the consequences would have been tremendous.

User currently offlineBobski From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 83 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 7083 times:

Quoting BAtriple7 (Reply 8):
However, I have problems with the use of the word 'dove'....was it really a dive? Autopilots usually make the aircraftd descend, not dive. And airliners definitely don't 'fall' on autopilot as the article suggests.

Don't get me started on the media hyping things like this up. An aircraft descends, so it becomes a 'dive'. That emergency landing at BHX a while back by a TNT 737 became a 'crash' and a 'crash landing', both of which imply a much more serious incident than the one that actually happened.



Who is Benjamin Breeg?
User currently offlinePygmalion From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 969 posts, RR: 37
Reply 17, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6798 times:

El Al spokesperson said none of the pax even noticed.... So I think the comment.... "it was a descent not a dive applies" here. It went from 4000 feet to 1200 feet while it was on approach.

Don't aircraft normally descend on approach to land at an airport?? I am so confused. AP says the aircraft lost contact with the airport ILS glideslope.

How is the media so out of touch with reality? If the pax really felt a 2800 foot dive over downtown London. Doesnt anyone think that one or two of the 450 might have mentioned it back in January???

El Al's current active fleet is 30 aircraft. They do heavy checks/maintenance for Air Canada, Continental and BA not to mention the other airlines in Israel. They must be really bad at it, if all those folks continue to use them.


User currently offlineBWI757 From Israel, joined Dec 2004, 429 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5830 times:

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 14):
Why doesn't everyone follow Date/Month/Year like normal people??

I'd suggest you read ISO 8601 to find out why

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601

BWI757



I live in the US but my heart is in Jerusalem!
User currently offlineVEEREF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5830 times:

What ever happened to clicking a malfunctioning autopilot off and flying by hand?
To let a 2800 foot altitude deviation intentionally go unchecked is kind of a big deal. If the crew wants to troubleshoot a malfunctioning system, a landing approach close to the ground with revenue pax in the back is a pretty poor place to do it.


User currently offlineCharliejag1 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 241 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5790 times:

glidescope, eh? Gotta love the media . . .

User currently offlineLY7E7 From Israel, joined Jun 2004, 2262 posts, RR: 19
Reply 21, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5585 times:

Quoting Pygmalion (Reply 17):
They do heavy checks/maintenance for Air Canada, Continental and BA not to mention the other airlines in Israel.

That would be IAI Bedek division, not LY.



2 things are endless: ignorance and space
User currently offlinePygmalion From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 969 posts, RR: 37
Reply 22, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5448 times:

You need to tell El Al that.

El Al maintenance

I've personally seen non-El Al aircraft in the hanger at Ben Gurion.


User currently offlineLY7E7 From Israel, joined Jun 2004, 2262 posts, RR: 19
Reply 23, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3984 times:

Quoting Pygmalion (Reply 22):
You need to tell El Al that.

I need not. They advertise IAI services in that link.

Quoting Pygmalion (Reply 22):
I've personally seen non-El Al aircraft in the hanger at Ben Gurion.

That would be the IAI hanger. Same one in which they do cargo conversions.



2 things are endless: ignorance and space
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