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In Defense Of The A-380  
User currently offlineJAAlbert From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1557 posts, RR: 1
Posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 5483 times:

There has been such negative talk about the beleaguered A380 project on this site (whether deserved or no), I thought I'd re-focus our attention -- if only briefly -- on the things that we lay-person plane huggers like about this plane.

What is the real attraction of this plane for an uneducated lout like me? It has two decks! Come on, who on this site didn't ever dream about a true double decker passenger plane to size of a city block hurtling through the air at 500mph? As much as I love Boeing, I am still hurt that Boeing never built the twin deck plane of our dreams. Maybe Airbus was crazy to do it, but they did it and I for one am glad.

Three jet bridge loading! How cool is that?

Yeah, it is very likely that, if things keep going the way they are, Airbus might not recoup the cost of building this plane. From an airline standpoint, however, I think the plane will be very profitable for those few airlines having well established, high demand, long haul routes. The cabin offers the most modern comforts, (slightly wider seats so I've been told) and amenities that just won't fit into 747 (excluding the shopping malls, casinos and bowling alleys). And that is why the airlines are not backing away from the 380. Airbus may take a hit, but a few airlines will make money with this plane.

The 380 will work for only a few airlines, but that is Airbus's problem, not the airlines who operate it.

And, if the boarding/unboarding/luggage process is smooth, the passengers will likely love the plane.

I will always love the 747 and am biting my nails in worry why we haven't seen a 747-8I order yet. The plane represents to me the freedom of travel. Still, I would be lying through my teeth if I said I can't wait to step aboard the A380 for my first flight. The dilemma keeping me up at night is -- do I chose a seat on the first deck or the second deck? I think the second deck of course.

The wiring issue on the 380 plane really seems to have taken on a life its own and I share the bewilderment at how such a problem could have become so serious for the entire Airbus company. I also wonder whether building the 380 made smart business sense in the first place. But those are not my problems. I'm a passenger who loves watching and flying great airplanes. I'm glad Airbus had the guts to build the 380 and I hope the problems are resolved and plane is put into service soon.

Just my thoughts.

P.S.: and I'm an American Citizen! How crazy is that?

24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineStarrion From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1126 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 5414 times:

That's not crazy at all. You love airplanes. As my wife will attest, I can't help but look at airplanes when they pass. I saw a 747 pass low over one of our birthday parties in the back yard, and I wanted to know whose it was, why it was so low without it's flaps and gear down, ect.

My wife's take on it: You walked away from the group, stood on the hil,l and looked back at everyone with this funny grimace on your face until the big plane left. I told them you were looking at the plane, because it didn't look right to you.

I am looking forward to seeing my first A380 in person. Since I don't travel heavily anymore I probably won't ride on one for a long time.

I have been critical of the business case for it. I have been very critical of how Airbus managed the program and how poorly the managed their relationships with their customers.

I still want to see the plane....



Knowledge Replaces Fear
User currently offlineAtnight From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 606 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 5387 times:

Well, I support this thread all the way... I am quite certain that the A380 is financially viable for the airlines that choose to operate it.... whether or not Airbus messed up in building it, as you said isn't really my problem (although I on the other hand firmly believe the A380 will eventually become a successful business for Airbus, just not in the time frame they expected).... nevertheless I really look forward to fly on it.. not only is the thing huge, but is a lot quieter than its competitor, probably close to the A340s as far as quietness (which is something that I personally love about the A340s), and the inside sure looks big and amazing...
Also, confirming my opinion from what recent unbiased articles have mentioned about how the A380 flies, I know the A380 will be one of my best "first" experiences.... can't say that about the B747 or the B767..... but I do recall my first times on the B757 and B777, and every time I've flow those two I love it.... that's why they are my favorite Boeings.... I also love the A340 or the A330, however the A343 proved to be the worst climber of all, however I'll still take it any day over the B744...

Anyways, since I guess I dislike the B744 pax experience (although love the looks of it), I am quite exited about the A380 from a pax standpoint... I certainly consider it the best VLA and I also hope to fly it soon.... I am really hoping to fly to SYD next year and fly on SQ's A380....

Quoting JAAlbert (Thread starter):
P.S.: and I'm an American Citizen! How crazy is that?

Supporting the A380 doesn't make you pro-Airbus or anti-Boeing... I just wished some here would understand that! Also, you are an american who supports aviation and has sense to appreciate what's best regardless of nationality.... I would really be surprised if you thought that GM made better cars than BWM!



B707 B727 B733/5/7/8/9 B742/4 B752/3 B763/4 B772 A310 A318/319/320 A332 A343 MD80 DC9/10 CRJ200 ERJ145 ERJ-170 Be1900 Da
User currently offlineZChannel From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 187 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 5298 times:

Being American and pretty much pro-Boeing, I was an airplane lover first and I would be very dissapointed if something happened that prevented that big girl from gracing our skies...


ZChannel: Member FDIC
User currently offlineExarmywarrant From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 267 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 5282 times:

Quoting Atnight (Reply 2):
BWM

Would that be Bavarian Weiner Mobile?


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21478 posts, RR: 60
Reply 5, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 5263 times:

Don't we already HAVE one of these threads? Why not add to that discussion? It's a good discussion!

http://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/3005366



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineEmSeeEye From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 508 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 5240 times:

Quoting Starrion (Reply 1):
My wife's take on it: You walked away from the group, stood on the hil,l and looked back at everyone with this funny grimace on your face until the big plane left. I told them you were looking at the plane, because it didn't look right to you.

Ok, thats funny. I guess my wife makes excuses for me too.


User currently offlineChicagoFlyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 272 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 5209 times:

Quoting Atnight (Reply 2):
I am quite certain that the A380 is financially viable for the airlines that choose to operate it....

Here's an analysis that says the initial customers are getting a steal on the A380.
http://leeham.net/filelib/ScottsColumn_2_092606.pdf

Apparently delays are good if you can milk Airbus for the cost. The guy is saying that $100 million/plane will be the price paid after all launch discounts and delay fines. If it's true, I agree that the deal is unbelievable if you are one of the few airlines that can actually use the plane.


User currently offlineTeamAmerica From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 1761 posts, RR: 23
Reply 8, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 5179 times:

Quoting JAAlbert (Thread starter):
and I'm an American Citizen! How crazy is that?

This is a fine posting JAAlbert, but you went astray at the end. Aviation is an international community, and we all share the love of it (wouldn't be here on A.Net if we didn't). It is perfectly o.k. to be an American who is critical of the A380, or a European who thinks ill of Boeing, or an Asian who thinks we're all nuts. We can hold our opinions without nationalities being part of the discussion.

No doubt the A380 holds a certain fascination. The biggest, fastest, most-whatever of any category always attracts our attention, and I expect that A380 will be the biggest of its kind, for all time. There will never be what we think of as a conventional airliner bigger than this one.

But simply being big won't make it a success. Airlines will need to work hard to emphasize the interior space, the roominess, as a differentiating factor in the public mind. It's not enough to simply make the A380 a more comfortable way to fly; they have to get the average passenger to recognize the difference, and ultimately to convince them that difference is enough to make them act on that preference. You have to have Mr. John Doe know that he wants to fly on an A380, and to look for that specifically when he books a flight. Succeed in that, and your airline has a real asset in the A380.



Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
User currently offlineAtnight From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 606 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 5151 times:

Quoting ChicagoFlyer (Reply 7):
Apparently delays are good if you can milk Airbus for the cost. The guy is saying that $100 million/plane will be the price paid after all launch discounts and delay fines. If it's true, I agree that the deal is unbelievable if you are one of the few airlines that can actually use the plane.

ChicagoFlyer, with all due respect, what's are your doing in this thread? Here is a thread that wants to focus on what's good about the A380, yet you bring out something that isn't the focus of this topic... who CARES if SQ, EK, LH, VS, KE, AF, QF, MH, etc. get the A380 cheap or expensive... why mention the negative problems as a "virtue" to airlines.... you think "few" airlines that "can acutally use it" would rather get it cheap even if it takes 5 years? C'mon, use some common sense.... Thanks to your little story, the number of people coming to this thread will increase so they can argue about the price airlines will end up paying the A380 due to its delays.... Couldn't you stay away from spoiling a discussion that is to bring out the GOOD things about the A380?
I am glad some of the best airlines in the world don't think like you... the few (which are more than 10 so far) are actually upset at waiting instead of praying for more delays so they can get it cheap.. They see the market for the A380 and will make more money with it than without it....
Now, please let's stay on track to discuss the good aspects of the A380....



B707 B727 B733/5/7/8/9 B742/4 B752/3 B763/4 B772 A310 A318/319/320 A332 A343 MD80 DC9/10 CRJ200 ERJ145 ERJ-170 Be1900 Da
User currently offlineJAAlbert From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1557 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 5131 times:

Quoting Starrion (Reply 1):
My wife's take on it: You walked away from the group, stood on the hil,l and looked back at everyone with this funny grimace on your face until the big plane left. I told them you were looking at the plane

My friends and family are always making excuses for me as to why I suddenly stopped mid-conversation and looked to the sky with big eyes. They just don't get it. It is very funny

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 8):
This is a fine posting JAAlbert, but you went astray at the end.

Thank you for resetting my moral compass. I added that last blurb because there are some of our fine community across the pond who have actually implied that we Americans bash the A380 because we are Americans. I just wanted to point out to all the astonished readers that there are supporters out this way too!


User currently offlineHb88 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2005, 814 posts, RR: 31
Reply 11, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 5119 times:

Quoting Atnight (Reply 9):
Now, please let's stay on track to discuss the good aspects of the A380....

Two words - passenger comfort.

Even for us sheep down the baaaack.

I think with the slightly wider seating and the general interior environment, it should be a much more comfortable a/c for pax. Also, the space will allow more flexibility with juggling the first/prem econ/econ mix - which, IMO, will be a plus for carriers given products like premium economy are increasing in popularity.

Also, I think it's a sweet looking aircraft. I think that puts me in the minority, but up close it's a powerful looking aircraft with a certain elegance.


User currently offline727200er From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 318 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 5045 times:

I think the thing will never be the success that Airbus says it will. Having said that though, I wanna see the thing bad!!!!!


"they who dream by day are cognizant of many things which escape those who dream only at night" - Edgar Allen Poe
User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 13, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 4929 times:

Quoting Atnight (Reply 9):
Now, please let's stay on track to discuss the good aspects of the A380....

I'm looking forward to flying on the WhaleJet, which I expect to do in both SQ and LH configurations. I'm also looking forward to seeing it at various airports. That's about all I think I should say in this thread.  Smile


User currently offlineAither From South Korea, joined Oct 2004, 858 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 4672 times:

More market shares and more profits for the airlines.

Maybe in the US they don't realise how much airlines are spilling demand in Asia and Europe. For instance, half of the time i want to go to Asia, i can't fly on my favorite carrier at the departure time i want for one reason : no more seats.

Therefore people try other airlines as i do and get free miles on them and my loyalty to my favorite airline is declining...

Some people here would talk about adding more frequencies and routes. It is happening but the fact is you still get more and more people wanting to go to the top European & Asian destinations at the same departure & arrival time. I'm sure the same will become true between the US and Asia as well as between Asian countries.



Never trust the obvious
User currently offlineRJ111 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 4652 times:

I still hold a faint belief that it could feasably break even, and do moderately well in the long term. Whilst fragmentation may have a mild effect at the minute, i don't belive it will be possible to maintain that when traffic has supposedly doubled over the next 13 years. The infrastructure just simply isnt there. And there's a lot of 744s which will retire over that time period, airlines will consider the A380, as well as the 748I (which i'd also like to see a few orders for) when the time comes.

It has to meet specs to hold any chance though. But we'll see. When the 747 came out it was oversized but the market grew into it. I believe it's possible that the A380 could could follow a similar path.

I don't know if im alone in this opinion, or whether it's just blind faith.


User currently offlineElite From Hong Kong, joined Jun 2006, 2793 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week ago) and read 4516 times:

Yes, I agree with you, I'm waiting for the A380 because of its size... and what VS has decided on doing - way more inflight features.

But I can imagine how long the row-by-row boarding will be if you are doing a packed long-haul flight, and the luggage that would come with it...


User currently offlineSKA380 From Norway, joined Jun 2005, 162 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week ago) and read 4481 times:

A big welcome to such a thread, after all the Airbus bashing thats been going on here lately.
Welcome to RU list JAAlbert!

Personally, i cant wait to fly on this thing. Like you say, flying on a full double decker has been the dream of many aircraft geeks for years. Hope its as quiet and comfortable to fly on as Airbus' other products are.

Leif


User currently offlineMorvious From Netherlands, joined Feb 2005, 707 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (7 years 10 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 4089 times:

I can't wait to sit in one of those either.
A plane designed taking 800 people on board with just 450+ seats fitted in is like a dream come true.

Although we know that if those routes are going to be a succes, those seat numbers will rise, but the room for every passenger is just the way we like to travle.

Quoting JAAlbert (Thread starter):
P.S.: and I'm an American Citizen! How crazy is that?



Quoting ZChannel (Reply 3):
Being American and pretty much pro-Boeing

To bad those quotes above are one of the main subject on this board these days!!
Its not like you are watching an ice hockey game, or a soccer game or Indicars.. Thanks to these birds I have a hobby I Spent thousands of hours, nomather its a Boeing or Airbus, or even a Fokker. They are all just amazing machines.

Quoting ChicagoFlyer (Reply 7):
.

No comment  shhh 



have a good day, Stefan van Hierden
User currently offlineTak From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 161 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 10 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3978 times:

Hello,

Have been following the A380 debate and delays for a long time now but just recently joined A.net. I can't wait to fly in an A380. One can debate how "pretty" the plane is, but it is a massive and awe inspiring airplane. I hope it does well, but am worried about Airbus' future with this plane. I hope they get things sorted out soon, as I would like to fly in this plane sometime in the next decade or so. Thanks for starting this topic.

Ciao , Thomas


User currently offlineVincewy From Taiwan, joined Oct 2005, 767 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (7 years 10 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3864 times:

Didn't Boeing have the same problem too when 747 was launched? Not only was the project delayed, it almost put Boeing out of business, Boeing laid off quite a few people (my uncle included) and Seattle's economy took a toll. In the ned, Boeing came out and made 747 the best money maker.

I personally would rather see delays than having problem running the planes.


User currently offlineTeamAmerica From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 1761 posts, RR: 23
Reply 21, posted (7 years 10 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3840 times:

Quoting Vincewy (Reply 20):
Didn't Boeing have the same problem too when 747 was launched? Not only was the project delayed, it almost put Boeing out of business, Boeing laid off quite a few people (my uncle included) and Seattle's economy took a toll. In the ned, Boeing came out and made 747 the best money maker.

I personally would rather see delays than having problem running the planes.

No, Vincewy, the B747 was not substantially delayed, and the delays were due to problems with the engines, not the airframe itself. This myth is often repeated on A.Net, but repetition will never make it true. Boeing was financially strained by the project; that part is true.

But we are here to defend the A380, so nothing more on that.  tapedshut 

No argument that the A380 delays are necessary, but it is not as if Airbus had a choice. If the aircraft's wiring cannot be certified (and we are using "wiring" to generalize a host of electrical problems) then it cannot be delivered. It is not a matter of Airbus chosing to do the right thing; they must. It's not optional.

As I write I realize that I am not succeeding in defending the A380. I do not wish to attack it, but yesterday's inconclusive board meeting was yet another disappointment. Where is the turning point, and how deep is the damage done to Airbus? No gloating here; I am genuinely concerned that if Airbus is substantially weakened the door is opened for others to enter the business.

Airbus and Boeing are a duopoly. Weakness in either is an opportunity for outsiders to break this duopoly. Who it would be is worthy of a separate thread, but there are players all around the world who alone or in concert are capable. This might be a good thing for aviation enthusiasts, given a greater variety of aircraft to argue about. It won't be a good thing for those whose livelihood is derived from Airbus or Boeing. They need each other, and Boeing does not ultimately benefit from a crippled Airbus.

That's why I can't defend the A380. I think this project has wounded Airbus, and it's a very sad thing to see.  worried 



Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 10 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3815 times:

Quoting Vincewy (Reply 20):
Didn't Boeing have the same problem too when 747 was launched? Not only was the project delayed, it almost put Boeing out of business, Boeing laid off quite a few people (my uncle included) and Seattle's economy took a toll. In the ned, Boeing came out and made 747 the best money maker.

Not really. Although undertaking the development of the 747 represented a huge risk for the Boeing Co.; fortunately, the industrial ramp-up of the 747 program was not botched by the airframer. Within one year of certification of the 741 on December 30, 1969, Boeing had delivered 96 aircraft to 17 customers/operators. The scheduled EIS of the 741 with the first operator, Pan Am, was delayed by only 4-6 weeks, despite major technical/performance problems with the JT9D engines. In fact, the normal "teething" problems, as well as ongoing issues with the JT9D engines, experienced by Pan Am (and other operators) after EIS, were probably mitigated by the fact that Pan Am had already received delivery of 5 operational aircraft once revenue service commenced in January 1970.

IMO, what's currently troubling the A380 program isn't at all comparable in terms of cause, scope, duration, and impact/knock-on effects for the OEM and the customers. Unfortunately, the current situation at TLS/XFW is much worse than the times of troubles at Everett circa 1969-70.

See also: Did The B747 Suffer Delays Before Introduction? (by Fly2CHC Sep 15 2006 in Civil Aviation)

The severe business set-back/contraction Boeing Commercial Aircraft experienced in the early-seventies was mostly attributable to the cancellation of the American SST program, and a deep economic recession in the North American economy which hit the airline industry particularly hard, leading to a severe decline in orders, as well as order cancellations, across all product lines. So many people left the Puget Sound region to look for work elsewhere, that two local real estate agents put up a billboard reading "Will the last person leaving Seattle — Turn out the lights."



[Edited 2006-10-01 04:09:20]

[Edited 2006-10-01 04:13:36]

User currently offlineTeamAmerica From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 1761 posts, RR: 23
Reply 23, posted (7 years 10 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3684 times:

Excellent post, Leelaw, one of many of yours that I have enjoyed. Welcome to my RU List.  thumbsup 

 point  We might consider this thread to be straw poll of sorts. A typical A380 thread easily runs past 100 posts, but "In Defense of the A380" has seen only 23 posts in two days.

The lack of words in praise of the A380 is quite telling.
Even A.Net appears demoralized by the current state of affairs at Airbus.  white 



Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
User currently offline747400sp From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3508 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (7 years 10 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3586 times:

Quoting JAAlbert (Thread starter):
As much as I love Boeing, I am still hurt that Boeing never built the twin deck plane of our dreams. Maybe Airbus was crazy to do it, but they did it and I for one am glad.



Quoting JAAlbert (Thread starter):
I will always love the 747 and am biting my nails in worry why we haven't seen a 747-8I order yet. The plane represents to me the freedom of travel. Still, I would be lying through my teeth if I said I can't wait to step aboard the A380 for my

Agree totaly. Smile I wish Boeing had built the NLA and I really wish MDC built the MD-12, Airbus built the A380 so let's be thankful for that!


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