PITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 2691 posts, RR: 3 Posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 15054 times:
From the Oct issue of ATW:
Virgin Blue has an RFP with Boeing and Airbus for five 777-300ERs or A340-600s but may have to look at Asian destinations if US access is limited. That may alter the type of aircraft selected.
My money is on the 777, due to greater cockpit commonality and system logic with the 737NG, as well as being more fuel efficient.
PlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11141 posts, RR: 63 Reply 3, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 14907 times:
Considering just how many A346's Virgin Atlantic has ordered from Airbus they might get a sweet deal on some more. However that's not to say that Boeing isn't going to be pulling out all the stops to get this one.
I'm sure that if the 773ER wasn't available till later, Boeing would include an interim aircraft, perhaps the 744 in order to sweeten its own deal to them.
Gemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5219 posts, RR: 6 Reply 4, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 14598 times:
Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 1): For some reason, my gut is telling me they'll go A340-600 on this...
So is mine! It is based on ETOPS certification. I just can't CASA granting ETOPS 180 (which is required to fly beyond HNL) straight up, to a new long haul operator. It just does not fit with their passed actions, but who knows.
Jfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 7348 posts, RR: 7 Reply 5, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 14549 times:
Virgin Blue has 737, Virgin America A320's, Virgin Atlantic has Boeing and Airbus so this doesn't tell us with any certainty which way they will go. I think the 773ER will be better for a 14 hour flight to California.
DfwRevolution From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 6, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 14505 times:
Quoting Gemuser (Reply 5): So is mine! It is based on ETOPS certification. I just can't CASA granting ETOPS 180 (which is required to fly beyond HNL) straight up, to a new long haul operator.
An airline can be rewarded ETOPS certification by demonstrating the necessary maintenance standards on their existing fleet. In short, it can easily be worked around and Boeing can help the airline in that regard.
ETOPS procedures have proven themselves to be considerably more economical in the long-run. Throw in the superior economics of the 777LR, long-term value of the 777 family, and Boeing has easily won the merit aspects of the RFP.
Airbus' top advantage are delivery slots, especially with EK trying to avoid delivery of their A346-HGW.
777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 11318 posts, RR: 17 Reply 7, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 14336 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
DJ is ordering 6x B773ERs and will have options for upto 6x B772LRs. DJ is also ordering more aircraft for Domestic expansion, but this won't be announced for a few months
Gemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5219 posts, RR: 6 Reply 8, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 14258 times:
Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 7): An airline can be rewarded ETOPS certification by demonstrating the necessary maintenance standards on their existing fleet. In short, it can easily be worked around and Boeing can help the airline in that regard.
There is more to it than just maintance standards. There is also operational standards. Some standards default to exprience. Any airworthiness certification has an element of subjectivness in it, and I'll bet you anything CASAs collective gut is telling them not to go to ETOPS180 immediately for DJ.
Of course, these days technical considerations are not as important as they used to be, so they could be over ridden by the higher ups under political pressure. We will see in due course.
Zeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 7727 posts, RR: 73 Reply 9, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 14193 times:
Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 7): An airline can be rewarded ETOPS certification by demonstrating the necessary maintenance standards on their existing fleet. In short, it can easily be worked around and Boeing can help the airline in that regard.
They have had issues with this in the past, the VB ETOPS approval in 2003 on the 737 fleet was withdrawn because of problems with their maintenance system, in particular the scheduling and recording of maintenance.
They will not order any aircraft until they have traffic rights to a daily flight, my understanding is they only presently have 4 times weekly approval.
In terms of fleet commonality for crewing, they dont necessarily want any. They do not what their existing crews on this aircraft, it would mean a blanket increase across the board which would raise their cost base significantly or the core 737 operations. They are presently trying to get the EMB aircraft crewing rates sorted which are going to be lower than existing rates.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
Antares From Australia, joined Jun 2004, 1402 posts, RR: 41 Reply 10, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 13979 times:
I doubt whether any favors will be done to Virgin Blue, and they probably don't need any, other than certainty of government policy on traffic rights, which is the same situation for all carriers.
Pacific Blue has always had ETOPS if my information is correct. The paper work stuff up only affected Virgin Blue, and after it was fixed, they decided they didn't need domestic ETOPS anyhow. I have heard it said that Jetstar came to same conclusion for its A320s. I'm sure it won't impede Jetstar getting ETOPS for the A330-200s about to fly to Honolulu, otherwise, they aren't likely to fly there at all.
I think the persistent indications of interest in 777-200LRs suggests something more than replicating routes flown by Qantas. Couldn't this jet do Perth-US west coast and Perth-London? Or Auckland-New York?
Zeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 7727 posts, RR: 73 Reply 11, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 13877 times:
Quoting Antares (Reply 11): Pacific Blue has always had ETOPS if my information is correct. The paper work stuff up only affected Virgin Blue, and after it was fixed, they decided they didn't need domestic ETOPS anyhow. I have heard it said that Jetstar came to same conclusion for its A320s. I'm sure it won't impede Jetstar getting ETOPS for the A330-200s about to fly to Honolulu, otherwise, they aren't likely to fly there at all.
I think what your saying about PacBlu is correct, they are under NZ regs, same with Jetconnect.
I understood the JQ had ETOPS to do trans-tasman flights, the non-ETOPS route is a little longer.
JQ I understand will be using existing maintenance practices for the 330s, and the 330s are already approved under the QF AOC. I would see JQ building on the QF approval. Both their existing 320 approval and the QF 330 approval is under CASA.
The problem I understood at VB was a little more than a paperwork stuff up, I was told it required a replacement of the computerised maintenance system. VB effectively subcontract their maintenance out to facilities in BNE and MEL, as its not "in house" I understand that some information is not recorded centrally.
I have also heard a suggestion that these flights could be done by PacBlu NZ, with Virgin Blue subcontracting the flights to Pacific Blue Australia (a subsidiary of VB), and then subcontracting it to Pacific Blue NZ. It would keep the aircraft off the books and make future Australian EBA negotiations easier. It would also mean they would need New Zealand rather than Australian ETOPS approval which I understand is easier to obtain, and the 777 is already on the New Zealand register.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
FiveMileFinal From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 232 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 13853 times:
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 4): As promised...here is one of my A330 videos...
Damn, he got the hell on up outta there, didn't he? Couldn't have been more than 10 seconds to rotation.
I forget not every plane Airbus makes takes off like the A343.
You goin'? We fly you dere! You been? We done already flew up in dere!
Zeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 7727 posts, RR: 73 Reply 13, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 13780 times:
Quoting FiveMileFinal (Reply 13): I forget not every plane Airbus makes takes off like the A343.
Airbuses generally have had better runway performance than their Boeing equivalents, i.e. 320 is better than 734, the 343 is about the same as a 763ER, the 380 uses about the same runway as a 762 on takeoff, and when the landed it 120t over it MLW, it used less distance than a 744.
People such as yourself make the assumption that the reduced thrust, or derated thrust takeoff that they use as standard procedure is representative of the real aircraft performance.
Come to HKG on a day with windshear, you will see everyone doing TOGA takeoffs, where some representative comparison could be made.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
EbbUK From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 14, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 13502 times:
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 4): As promised...here is one of my A330 videos...
Lovely. RR engine isn' it? Whenever I am in a 330/340 I just stare at the wing tip, first at take off as it raises in the air prior to rotate and then throughout the flight as it dances in the air. Beautiful, I can't get enough. MORE PLEASE
Thorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 15, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 13477 times:
Quoting 777ER (Reply 8): DJ is ordering 6x B773ERs and will have options for upto 6x B772LRs. DJ is also ordering more aircraft for Domestic expansion, but this won't be announced for a few months
BrightCedars From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 1276 posts, RR: 2 Reply 17, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 13109 times:
I'm wondering what kind of service is to be expected from a low-cost airline applied to long haul? Wouldn't surprise me if there was a new brand appearing in the Virgin group of airlines i.e. Virgin Pacific to slightly differenciate the products from the start.
As far as fleet is concerned. The A340-600 is a good aircraft, not a top seller, not the best of both, but more readily available, with greater group experience with the type and toothing issues now part of history, and without the challenge of ETOPS across the Pacific.
I'm sure a sweet deal will deliver us some beautiful Airbus quads!
ZKNBX From New Zealand, joined Jul 2006, 464 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 12891 times:
Quoting BrightCedars (Reply 18): I'm sure a sweet deal will deliver us some beautiful Airbus quads!
Given the timeframe and the group experience, would expect A346 over B77W for transpacific. The statement about changing a/c type should the routes to the USA not be approved suggests things are at a more tentative stage than initially implied in this post.
Antares From Australia, joined Jun 2004, 1402 posts, RR: 41 Reply 19, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 12873 times:
BrightCedars,
I think there is a misunderstanding about Virgin Blue and some other LCCs as being like Ryanair is claimed to be. It may be low cost, and it is single cabin, but it isn't anywhere near as unpleasant to fly with as some so called full service carriers. There is good leg room, but awful food you buy off the trolley, as distinct from tighter seats on some Qantas flights and awful food they give away.
Qantas is somewhat better than that if you fly to Perth, it makes a big effort on those routes but shorter flights are a bit of a disappointment food wise. I still fly Qantas business class a lot because I buy my own flights but I also use Virgin Blue and so does most of the tribe, when not on REX or Qantaslink turbines. Our in house travel policy for partners paid for by the business from which I am largely just a retired unpaid ghost who walks and turns up for advisory slug fests is economy on domestic and trans Tasman. Our people do not have to fly Jetstar. If we made that compulsory they'd all probably buy their own tickets on someone else, or resign.
The plot, so we are told, is for the long haul version of Virgin Blue is for innovative economy whatever that means, and a premium business class of at least the same standard as VS. They have specifically ruled out charging for meals.
I think Jetstar International will find itself up against the low cost base of the major quality Asian carriers, and have to reconsider its product offering because the established competitors will have roomier cabins, better IFE, and complimentary meals and drinks, and if history is any guide, they will make sure they have more than enough seats at equal to or less than Jestar International to deprive them on the volume of customers they seek, and for as long as it takes.
The Jetstar people aren't stupid either. They will do whatever it takes to be a relevant competitor, including change the offerings where necessary. Competition is a good thing.
ZKNBX From New Zealand, joined Jul 2006, 464 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 12748 times:
indeed it will be HGW and Airbus will offer them a winning price thanks to VS being a major customer - be nice to see a 77W in DJ colours but I don't rate boeing's chances
Monteycarlos From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2107 posts, RR: 31 Reply 22, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 12520 times:
Quoting 777ER (Reply 8): DJ is ordering 6x B773ERs and will have options for upto 6x B772LRs. DJ is also ordering more aircraft for Domestic expansion, but this won't be announced for a few months
You seem pretty confident on this so I will trust you. I won't ask you to reveal your sources but I will ask what makes you so confident? As others have said, there is a long wait for 777's these days... do DJ have the time?
Quoting ZKNBX (Reply 22): indeed it will be HGW and Airbus will offer them a winning price thanks to VS being a major customer - be nice to see a 77W in DJ colours but I don't rate boeing's chances
You sound confident the other way? What would make DJ go for the A346? Price, time, commanlity with the Virgin Atlantic name? Not sure any of those will sway DJ too much away from 777's.
DeltaJet757 From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 243 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 10183 times:
Quoting PITrules (Thread starter): My money is on the 777, due to greater cockpit commonality and system logic with the 737NG, as well as being more fuel efficient.
Definitely. If Virgin Blue chooses the A346's then they have to waste time training their crews for the Airbuses. But if they choose 773's then they can put them into service faster.
-DeltaJet757
FLY DELTA JETS
25 AA777223: My bet is Mr. Branson will choose the airbuses for this task. He seems to like them better. I really don't know though.
26 Leskova: I wasn't aware that the B737NG and the B773ER offer much commonality that would allow a reduction in transition time - since you seem to know, how lo
27 QatarA340: While this is somewhat true, I don't think this is a major issue. Probably, the pilots for the A346 wont be the same as their 737's. Personally, i th
28 FlyDreamliner: Because that's what all the airlines have been doing lately...... except not. I'm glad our regulators make decisions based on their gut. The best pla
29 ClassicLover: I should have said... my gut says they will go with Airbus, which is weird because I prefer Boeing... depends when they can get 777s really...
30 Beech19: Yes the 777-200LR has a 9420nm range. According to Great Circle Mapper Perth - Seattle (farthest west coast city from Perth) is 8027nm so that is wel
31 Antares: Gotta get some sleep however I'm very surprised so few people (Leskova excepted) understand that Branson has stuff all to do with Virgin Blue these da
32 2wingtips: They can get 777s in their desired timeframe(Q1 2008). Don't know if they are to be bought/leased.
33 FlyDreamliner: Between all the different leasing companies, and Boeing's willingness to work things out to bring a new airline into their longhaul family, I'd think
35 Hamlet69: FWIW, the 737NG and 777 have a lot more commonality than most A.netters give Boeing credit for. While the Airbus CCQ gets a lot of well-deserved resp
36 Willyj: Hasn't this entire thread been saying how they can't get 77Ws NOW, but that the 346s are more available.
37 2wingtips: That sounds on the money to me. Long term, the 789 looks like the best option for DJ IMO. And I just said they can get 773ERs when they want them; Q1
38 Gemuser: They most certianly do! In the real world aviation safety is not a black & white thing, it is a mass of conflicting requirements and practical compro
39 Antares: Jacobin777, You misunderstand me. I don't think they are going to get A346s. I was simply explaining that getting any from VS is somewhat implausible,
40 Jacobin777: Ahh...I see.. ....makes sense...I dont' think there will be any influence from SRB regarding the DJ order..
41 777ER: A very reliable mate has informed me. My mate has been correct about previous orders. I've been informed of some other orders but wont talk about tho
42 2wingtips: OK thanks. Interim lease and then 788/9s to follow from somewhere b/w 2010/2012?
44 Thorben: Allright, we'll see how reliable your source is this time. Sounds like a good deal for Boeing, and T7s with all that red would look very interesting.
45 Fuffla: This information is from a friend: "But the guy on airliners.net is speaking through his hat. I set the long haul team up and sit on the steering com
46 777ER: Now thats what I'm talking about (B773 pic), but change the Virginblue markings to FlyPacificBlue.com markings. What I've found "As to timing of the
47 Zeke: Had suspected that was coming, see my comments relating to NZ CAA ETOPS and crewing above. They will not order anything unless they have approval for
48 Gemuser: Just saw this due to your referrence in reply47. I doubt this would be allowed under current Oz rules, except on a concessional (ie, limited) basis.
49 Zeke: My understanding its is exactly how some of the south pacific flights are happening now. VB subcontracts these flights out to Pacific Blue. I think t
50 Gemuser: I belive you are right, but what is acceptable for flights to the Pacific Islands is one thing, services to the USA is quite another. Flights to the
51 Johnny: Has anybody ETOPS experience between Australia and the US? Which ETOPS airfields are normally used? Thanks a lot, Johnny [Edited 2006-10-06 13:44
52 Gemuser: QF has(767) & do(767 & A332 from next year) as far as HNL, NZ do(767,777), HA do(767) & FJ do (738!!!) Sorry don't even know what PETS are! Gemuser
53 AA777223: Welllll, that was a joke, but so much for humor around aviation nerds. I was just saying based on the virgin groups purchases in the past, I think ai
54 777ER: Well maybe put in a joke symbol next time, then we will know its a joke.
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