Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Interesting ATC Clearance "line Up & Wait"  
User currently offlineDc10rules From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 98 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 11221 times:

I was on UA flight 1680 CUN-ORD on 9/27 listening to channel 9 of course and at the hold short line we contacted CUN tower and were told to "line up and wait". Is that common? I know protocol is "taxi into pos and hold rwy 12" or simply "taxi and hold rwy 12".

Just curious. This was my first trip outside the US.

Cheers all and fly safe!

53 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 11213 times:

Quoting Dc10rules (Thread starter):
line up and wait".

Same stuff: Position and Hold. . .


User currently offlineMcdu From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1448 posts, RR: 17
Reply 2, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 11160 times:

First thanks for riding with us at UA and glad to hear you enjoy CH9. To answer your question, what you heard was how the rest of the world communicates "position and hold" Outside of the US the world operates under ICAO phraseology and "line up and wait" is standard international workding. If you were at LHR you might hear the controller to tell the pilots to "after the departing Virgin 747, line up and wait 27L" This put the onus on the pilots to maintain separation, and a clearance you would never get in the states.

One other ICAO item is the wording to "taxi to the holding point 27R". This sound s close enough to "taxi into position and hold" for some US ears that there have been runway incursions.

Again thanks for riding with UA and hope to have you back with us in the future.


User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24880 posts, RR: 46
Reply 3, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 11154 times:

"Line up and wait" I'd say is much more frequently used worldwide then "position and hold" which is more US slang.

You'll find "Line up and wait" used in Europe, Asia, Latin America etc... I actualy have an ICAO ATC terminology book with "line up and wait" in it, with no reference to the US version.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineDC10rules From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 98 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 11072 times:

Great info everyone. Thank you! And Mcdu I always fly UA and have nothing but good things to say, but thats for another forum I guess!

Cheers


User currently offlineCessna057 From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 439 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 11021 times:

I few to TTN today and I got a "Line up and wait".

As said, it is also much more common worldwide

Hope this helped!



Hold it . . . Hold it . . . HOLD THE FREAKIN NOSE UP!!
User currently offlineATCGOD From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 661 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 10975 times:

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 3):
"Line up and wait" I'd say is much more frequently used worldwide then "position and hold" which is more US slang.

As an air traffic controller that has worked in the US and abroad, I can tell you that "Line up and wait" is the official ICAO terminology and "taxi into position and hold" is official terminology from the FAAO 7110.65, which is the US FAA Air Traffic Control book. It's not slang, it's different terminology for different governing agencies for aviation.


User currently offlineVEEREF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 10837 times:

When I was operating into Canada back in the day, the controllers in London (YXU) would refer to the hold short line as "The button". Never heard it anywhere else though.

User currently offlineDab920 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2001, 108 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 10682 times:

Surely you should realise that everything is done differently in the US to the rest of the world. One thing I would like to know, is whether things are done differently because of a real belief it is a better way, or done differently for the sake of being different. From the outside looking in, it sure seems like that sometimes.

User currently offlineMcdu From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1448 posts, RR: 17
Reply 9, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 10652 times:

Quoting Dab920 (Reply 8):
Surely you should realise that everything is done differently in the US to the rest of the world. One thing I would like to know, is whether things are done differently because of a real belief it is a better way, or done differently for the sake of being different. From the outside looking in, it sure seems like that sometimes.

Maybe it was because we started first with Orville and Wilbur and the rest of the world made up their own "new" rules?  Smile


User currently offlineGary2880 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 10629 times:

wasn't aware that Orville and Wilbur were told by atc to position and hold before the first flight  Smile

Quoting Dab920 (Reply 8):
or done differently for the sake of being different.

awkward for the sake of awkward i say.


User currently offlineBlueShamu330s From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 2866 posts, RR: 25
Reply 11, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 10598 times:

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 3):
You'll find "Line up and wait" used in Europe, Asia, Latin America etc... I actualy have an ICAO ATC terminology book with "line up and wait" in it, with no reference to the US version.



Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 6):

As an air traffic controller that has worked in the US and abroad, I can tell you that "Line up and wait" is the official ICAO terminology and "taxi into position and hold" is official terminology from the FAAO 7110.65, which is the US FAA Air Traffic Control book. It's not slang, it's different terminology for different governing agencies for aviation.  checkmark 

Quoting Dab920 (Reply 8):
One thing I would like to know, is whether things are done differently because of a real belief it is a better way, or done differently for the sake of being different.

"Line up and wait" was adopted after an incident quite a few years ago where a Japan Air aircraft at Heathrow was instructed to line up and hold, to which the captain replied "Line up and roll."  redflag   eek 

"Line up and wait was considered less ambiguous and more understandable, whatever national tongue aircrew had, and was thus adopted by ICAO.

Shamu



So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
User currently offlineLHR777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days ago) and read 10035 times:

So, why does the US not adopt ICAO standards?

Surely that JAL Captain that understood 'line-up and hold' as 'line-up and roll' could also fly to the USA, with their use of 'taxi into position and hold' being misunderstood as 'taxi into position and roll'? Wouldn't the global standard use of 'Line-up and wait' make more sense?

It just seems to make more sense to adopt the same global standard for ATC, for safety reasons. It's better to avoid ambiguity, don't you think?


User currently offlineVEEREF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days ago) and read 9853 times:

Quoting Dab920 (Reply 8):
One thing I would like to know, is whether things are done differently because of a real belief it is a better way, or done differently for the sake of being different. From the outside looking in, it sure seems like that sometimes.

I operate all over the world. Believe me, things being done a little differently is most certainly not limited to the US.

When flying to someplace new, we are usually briefed on differences in regulations and terminology for a certain destination. Certainly ICAO terminology is the most widely used, but I always seem to run into differences no matter where I go.

Bottom line- If something doesn't quite make sense, STOP the aircraft and ASK!


User currently offlineTrojanAE From Lithuania, joined May 2006, 90 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days ago) and read 9786 times:

Quoting Dab920 (Reply 8):
or done differently for the sake of being different. From the outside looking in, it sure seems like that sometimes.



Quoting Gary2880 (Reply 10):
awkward for the sake of awkward i say.

Like the left hand drive in Great Britain, right?  Yeah sure Please, that's just a stupid, unnecessarily provoking off-topic comment.
It's just a differing phraseology used by different governing agencies, as someone has already pointed out. There is nothing wrong with either phraseology and it's great that the ICAO standard is less ambiguous. But I believe any pilot undergoing training should familiarise him/her self with international phraseologies used in different countries, and realize that perhaps FAA phrases are different and that there is no such thing as "taxi into position and roll". Sounds like the pilot was simply unfamiliar with standard ATC terms. Such as, ATC never uses the term "take-off" until actual take-off clearance is being given, a rule implemented after the Teneriffe disaster in 1977. So proper ATC communications would never tell you to "roll", they would tell you "Wind xx at xxx, XYZ airline XXX, clear for takeoff, RWY 2L." A properly trained pilot would never make this mistake.



"My soul is in the sky." -William Shakespeare
User currently offlineJpax From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1018 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days ago) and read 9701 times:

Quoting Gary2880 (Reply 10):
wasn't aware that Orville and Wilbur were told by atc to position and hold before the first flight

"Wright 1903 position and hold on the track"

"In the prone position and holding on in case I crash again, 1903"

...they sure were  

EDIT: Hard to believe that was only 103 years ago...the way we have advanced is nothing short of spectacular.

[Edited 2006-10-01 20:25:56]

User currently offlineTransIsland From Bahamas, joined Mar 2004, 2044 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days ago) and read 9701 times:

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 9):
Maybe it was because we started first with Orville and Wilbur and the rest of the world made up their own "new" rules?

Yeah, I clearly remember how ATC (I was working the shift) told the Wright flyer to "taxi into position and hold."  old 



I'm an aviation expert. I have Sky Juice for breakfast.
User currently offlineBeech19 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 936 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (7 years 10 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 9326 times:

Quoting LHR777 (Reply 12):
So, why does the US not adopt ICAO standards?

Not to step on anyones toes... (just playing devils advocate for a momment) Knowing that airplanes and human flight started here in the US (and more than likely ATC's also because of that fact) technically speaking wouldn't the ICAO standards be the ones rebelling against the "norm" and should change back?  duck 

DISCLAIMER: That was a joke... everyone relax.

Quoting Dab920 (Reply 8):
One thing I would like to know, is whether things are done differently because of a real belief it is a better way, or done differently for the sake of being different. From the outside looking in, it sure seems like that sometimes.

Well... i think i'd be more curious to find out which actually came first "taxi into posistion and hold" or "Line up and wait" and then we can discuss whether the US does things to be different or if the other country's do.  Wink

That being said i beleive the whole foundation of the US was started because we didn't like how the British were doing it (that is NOT a slam on them at all). Being from Boston i know the history quite well. Anyone want some soggy tea?

Quoting Gary2880 (Reply 10):
awkward for the sake of awkward i say.

hey! I resemble that remark!  Wink

Quoting VEEREF (Reply 13):
Bottom line- If something doesn't quite make sense, STOP the aircraft and ASK!

Any pilot (myself included) with the lack of THAT common logic should have there certs stripped of them at once!

Quoting TransIsland (Reply 16):
Yeah, I clearly remember how ATC (I was working the shift) told the Wright flyer to "taxi into position and hold."

My father has a picture of his grand father as a very young child standing next to the flyer before its first flight. Its amazing...

Quoting Jpax (Reply 15):
Hard to believe that was only 103 years ago...the way we have advanced is nothing short of spectacular.

Agreed... its dumbfounding!



KPAE via KBVY
User currently offlineTraineepilot From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 78 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 10 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 9105 times:

I think its depends on controller. Myself, I have been instructed to line-up and wait runway 32 and also, taxi to position and hold.

Means the same thing.


User currently offlineCRGsFuture From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 536 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (7 years 10 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 8980 times:

Quoting BlueShamu330s:
"Line up and wait" was adopted after an incident quite a few years ago where a Japan Air aircraft at Heathrow was instructed to line up and hold, to which the captain replied "Line up and roll."

Are you sure the Japanese pilot said roll, because they also say fright which means flight in the broken english they speak?



Flying you to your destination; your girlfriend to her dreams.
User currently offlineAntiuser From Italy, joined May 2004, 657 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (7 years 10 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 8951 times:

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 9):
Maybe it was because we started first with Orville and Wilbur and the rest of the world made up their own "new" rules?



Quoting Beech19 (Reply 17):
Knowing that airplanes and human flight started here in the US

The development of heavier-than-air flying machines was almost parallel in the US and Europe - While Orville and Wilbur Wright have to their credit the first documented flight in a heavier-than-air machine, Alberto Santos-Dumont (a Brazilian residing in Paris) developed an aircraft that took off from its own power shortly after that, and his subsequent designs were made available for the general public and enjoyed great popularity even in the US, through the Popular Mechanics magazine.

That said, ATC only came about 2 decades later, and radio towers wouldn't be around until the 1930s, when aviation technology was well distributed over the world.



Azzurri Campioni del Mondo!
User currently offlineBeech19 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 936 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (7 years 10 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 8416 times:

Quoting Antiuser (Reply 20):

Thanks for that information.

We still got off the ground first! HA HA! j/k  Wink



KPAE via KBVY
User currently offlineWjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5128 posts, RR: 22
Reply 22, posted (7 years 10 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 8232 times:

Many are too young to remember, but I believe that the change in the terminology came post-Tenerife, where a departing KLM 747 hit a Pan Am 747. At that time, the nomenclature was "Clear into position" and "Clear for takeoff." The FAA realized that using "clear" on both was confusing, and so it became "Taxi" rather than "clear" and the "and hold" was added.

User currently offlineDreamflight767 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 86 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 10 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 8120 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Hi Crew:

Not to get too technical, but "Taxi into position and hold" is no longer used. The proper phraseology now is simply "Position and hold." So it would be read as "XYZ123, position and hold (RWY)."

This was changed not too long ago, if I recall, in an attempt to avoid and reduce confusion and/or runway incursions.


User currently offlineFlyMatt2Bermud From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 563 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (7 years 10 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 8091 times:

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 2):
If you were at LHR you might hear the controller to tell the pilots to "after the departing Virgin 747, line up and wait 27L" This put the onus on the pilots to maintain separation, and a clearance you would never get in the states.

Actually, years ago this phraseology was practised in the U.S. as well (though ATC used "hold" instead of "wait" or they could tell you "XXXX behind the arriving AMERICAN Seven Three Seven on final, line up and hold Runway Two Seven Left" I believe this was written out about 20 years ago when the FAA made some major changes to terminology and separation standards.



"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward" Leonardo Da Vinci
25 Bond007 : Well...it was "line up and hold" until fairly recently (as has been mentioned). When I was flying in Europe 12 years ago, I never heard "line up and
26 Iahflyr : I use whatever makes sense........they have to taxi to the position and hold spot correct? So, I will tell them taxi into position and hold until the
27 Bond007 : ...to you
28 IAHFLYR : Any fyi.......the handbook allows a controller to use phrases that allow for best chance to get the point across! And that doesn't to you? We only us
29 Bond007 : Any fyi ....only after you use the correct phraseology first. From 7110.65: "Controllers may, after first using the prescribed phraseology for a spec
30 Alias1024 : Personally I think the FAA should adopt "Line up and wait" as the official terminology. I don't like that two instructions meaning almost completely o
31 ZKSUJ : Some say: "Behind the Landing (a/c model here) line up and wait behind". I was told the 'wait' and 'hold' are now emphisized somewhat due to the Tener
32 Interpaul : I'm sure I've heard something like "BEHIND the departing 737, line up and wait runway 33 BEHIND." Where they repeat the "behind" at the end of the sen
33 Post contains images IAHFLYR : There ya have it....it is my good judgement! Damn not more phraseology police......I'll have you know Jimbo, some pilots who routinely fly in the Hou
34 Findigenous : This "good judgement" crap does not work very well when you have a setting where there are many pilots in the frequency that do not speak english as t
35 Post contains images Bond007 : In the USA, the 'behind the landing....' phraseology is mentioned specifically as NOT to be used. It wasn't Jimbo
36 Mcdu : Jimbo, Things change and this is one of them. ICAO controllers now say, "line up and wait". What were you flying to Europe? I was on the 767, 12 year
37 Bond007 : Oh yes, I realize it changed. In the early nineties I was flying a lot of GA stuff, and King Airs around Europe (no airline flying)...now I'm based i
38 IAHFLYR : Whew, that is good, made my day, oh thats another movie!
39 Post contains images Gary2880 : *checks rest of thread* seems you are the only one that has been unnecessarily provoked. didn't realize people from Lithuania were so anal retentive
40 Post contains images Beech19 : Maybe its cause i'm exhausted... but thats the funniest thing heard all day!
41 IAHFLYR : A very bold assumption....."never"! mmm just like using the term "land". ATC is not supposed to use the term unless cleared for take-off, cleared to
42 Post contains images Leezyjet : This is also along the lines of being cleared to land in the US when there could be several aircraft on final ahead of you. That surprised me. Everywh
43 BigOrange : But they use the phrase "after the landing". I hear that all the time at LGA when they are on single runway ops.
44 TristarSteve : Here in ARN, In sequence line up and wait behind, is commonly used when a line of aircraft is waiting to depart on a departures only runway.
45 10MID : I've heard "Position and Wait" in Canada. I've heard both "Position & Hold" and "Line Up and Wait" in Mexico.
46 Sabenaboy : It doesn't make sense that the word "hold" is used in both these instructions: a: "taxi into position and hold" b: "hold short of..." MARK MY WORDS: S
47 Bond007 : That's one of the reasons it was changed to "wait". Jimbo
48 ATCGOD : I guess I don't understand where the miscommunication could be. If you just gave the command to "taxi into position" without the hold part, I think y
49 Mcdu : Interesting flying. Did you do any crossings with the GA aircraft? I have tremendous amount of respect for those that do that flying. I was uncomfort
50 Post contains images Bond007 : Since I swallowed the ATC handbook recently "a. Do not issue conditional instructions that are dependent upon the movement of an arrival aircraft on
51 ATCGOD : You're always right and trained perfectly until an accident or incident. Even then the 7110.65 can be interpreted and you can be found at fault. Craz
52 Post contains images Iahflyr : Crackin me up with that Jimbo and tummy is full from that book you took down the throat too!! Are you certain of how that is used? Such as "you're ne
53 Post contains images IAHFLYR : Just to add more fuel to the topic.....found this in the 9/28/06 Notices to Airmen, Domestic/International They might have to change the TIPH to PH!!!
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
"Newlines" Website Is Up & Running....Sort Of! posted Sat Feb 3 2001 00:27:20 by Englandair
Can Someone Explain "O&D"? posted Mon Nov 20 2006 16:04:14 by Avi8tir
How To "Make Up Time" In The Air posted Sun Jun 25 2006 02:04:09 by TWAtwaTWA
The Full Line-up Of A & B Aircraft Based On Seats posted Sun Apr 30 2006 19:53:56 by Radelow
What Is "su" & "se" In The E-170? posted Sat Dec 24 2005 22:23:48 by NY-JFK-LGA
Is A&E "airline" In Season 2 Or 3? posted Tue Sep 20 2005 04:40:14 by LUVRSW
A380 - A "Step Up Cockpit" posted Thu Apr 7 2005 05:02:16 by KBUF737
Bombardier & Embraer Production Line-Up? posted Sat Apr 2 2005 18:28:04 by FlagshipAZ
IAD & "Airport '75" Question - DON'T Laugh! posted Thu Feb 24 2005 21:29:13 by KYAir
AMS & "Polderbaan" posted Thu Jan 20 2005 19:32:45 by Airportugal310