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Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 4  
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 11 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 33096 times:

Here's Part 4 since Part 3 was getting so large (again)............................................

[Edited 2006-10-02 01:53:40]

196 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDeC From Greece, joined Aug 2005, 616 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (7 years 11 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 33020 times:

from part 3 of the discussion:

Quoting CPHGuard (Reply 200):
I have no idea of the technical issues with TCAS, but wouldnt it warn much earlier, than a couple of seconds prior to impact ?
If this is the case, it sounds unlikely, that the Boeing crew didnt response until seconds before impact.


I am not sure about this, but it's my understanding (and someone who knows for sure please correct me if i am wrong) that TCAS takes at least 2 factors in mind in order to warn the pilots about a possible collision:

1) proximity, i.e. how close one plane is to another and
2) possibility of a collision according to the paths of the planes, i.e. calculating the logical extensions of the aircrafts' paths by their current status (turn, descending or climbing, speed) and resulting in a possible crossing of the 2 path-lines at one common point, i.e. a collision.

Now, IF the TCAS systems were on and working in both planes would it be possible that the 737 would be in a turn or descend / climb so tight and abrupt that the TCAS (one of the 2 or both of them) wasn;t given the time and chance to calculate the possibility of a common point (collision) between the path-lines?

[Edited 2006-10-02 01:42:52]


DEC
User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 11 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 33020 times:

"The aircraft crashed shortly after takeoff after taking evasive action to avoid a Pan American 707 which had been placed on a converging track by Air Traffic Control."
http://www.airdisaster.com/cgi-bin/v...5®=N849D&airline=Eastern+Air+Lines

"Flying VFR at night over woodland, the crew was unable to determine that aircraft's attitude, and the wings rolled past 90° bank. The plane then entered a steep dive and broke up at approximately 13,000 feet."

http://www.airdisaster.com/cgi-bin/v...ate=06061992®=HP-1205&airline=COPA

There are ways where the aircraft manuevers can be excessive enough to render the aircraft uncontrollable.


User currently offlineAwthompson From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 474 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 11 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 33014 times:

Could I suggest that the 737 had prior warning (either saw the Legacy or got a TCAS alert) then started a right bank.

It is aviation law (in the UK and Canada where I trained to fly) to bank RIGHT when faced with a possible head on collision.

The Legacy pilot did not see the 737 on time to take any avoiding action, so if any of the two aircraft banked right, it had to be the 737.

At the moment, I cannot think of any other collision angle which would cause this damage to the Legacy. ie. - the legacy striking the underneath of the 737 which was banked to the right.

Read my replies (185 + 195) towards the foot of Part 3 before responding to my theory.


User currently offlineFliguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 11 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 32989 times:

I guess everyone wants to keep guessing what happened...

Unfortunately we might never know as the Brazilian news is reporting that it may take up to 90 days to complete the investigation. And none of the news agencies are reporting any new news after the crash site and all 155 suspected dead.

As indicated in my post #198, the crew of the Legacy is in serious trouble "do crime de homícidio culposo" translation Negligent Homicide.

So far the folks at O Globo are the only people keeping up with the happenings in the investigation and search efforts.

The O Globo article can be found here:

http://oglobo.globo.com/pais/mat/2006/10/01/285915797.asp

The most current article(s) can be found here:

http://oglobo.globo.com/

I know it's hard to translate, but you can figure out a good deal of what is being said...

[Edited 2006-10-02 01:51:46]

User currently offlineKhobar From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2379 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (7 years 11 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 32953 times:

As for the speculation regarding the 737 being in a right bank, consider this. The sun was to the left of the EMB, and the EMB persons saw a shadow. This would seem to indicate that the 737 approached from the left of the EMB. If they were flying in opposite directions, a right bank would have the 737 banking away from the EMB.

“No one believes we managed to survive a mid-air collision,” Mr. Sharkey wrote. “Neither of the pilots can understand how a 737 could have hit us without them seeing it,” he added, noting that the smaller plane was “flying stable northwest at 37,000 feet with the sun off the left wing, and a 737 would have been obvious.”
...

"The corporate jet, a Legacy 600 made by Embraer, safely landed in Cachimbo. Its pilot reported seeing, "out of nowhere, a large shadow" passing his plane, clipping his wing, and forcing an emergency landing, said Defense Minister Waldir Pires."

[Edited 2006-10-02 01:48:42]

User currently offlineOptionsCLE From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 467 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 11 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 32814 times:

Quoting Khobar (Reply 5):
Seems to indicate that the 737 approached from the left, though the time between the appearance of the shadow and the collision is not clear.

I think this is the key. Keep in mind that a lot was happening at the time, and while it is possible that the shaddow appeared before contact was made, it is equally possible that it occured at the same moment of or even after contact. With the speeds of the aircraft involved and the confusion in such a situation, the account of a shaken pilot on the exact timing of a split second shaddow shouldn't be taken as gospel.


User currently offlineAirbrasil From Brazil, joined Nov 2003, 205 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (7 years 11 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 32762 times:

Can anyone draw a photo of what culd have happened?

Airbrasil


User currently offlineRichM From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2004, 798 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (7 years 11 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 32760 times:

Are they pretty certain that it was a collision that caused this accident now?

User currently offlineAwthompson From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 474 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 11 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 32760 times:

Referring to reply 5 by Khobar.

By "shadow" the pilot may not have meant a literal shadow from the sun being cast on the Legacy, but simply a sudden unidentified large object flashing past the windcreen?

Also if the 737 was over the top of the Legacy, it was still possible to cast an actual shadow on the cockpit (albeit of split second duration)?

It is just that I have not found any other collision angle (besides the 737 being in a right bank) which would explain the damage to two separate areas on the Legacy which are so far apart both vertically and laterally.


User currently offlineDeC From Greece, joined Aug 2005, 616 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (7 years 11 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 32719 times:

Quoting OptionsCLE (Reply 6):
and while it is possible that the shaddow appeared before contact was made, it is equally possible that it occured at the same moment of or even after contact. With the speeds of the aircraft involved and the confusion in such a situation, the account of a shaken pilot on the exact timing of a split second shaddow shouldn't be taken as gospel.

Indeed. If you think of those inapprehensibly rapid moments of such a mid-air contact at those speeds, then i wouldn't be surprised if nobody, even the most experienced, could accurately define the precise time-table and order of such events.

Also, don’t forget that when relaxed at cruising altitude and straight ahead course, you’re not exactly at a point of such a high alarm where you constantly await and watch out for things like that.



DEC
User currently offlineAwthompson From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 474 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 11 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 32684 times:

Hi Airbrasil, this is the nearest thing to drawing a picture and it is close to what I have in mind.

If you have not already seen it, have a look at the following animation:

http://gmc.globo.com/GMC/1,,2465-p-M549154,00.html

I know it is conjecture but might be a possibility.


User currently offlineULMFlyer From Brazil, joined Sep 2006, 475 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (7 years 11 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 32594 times:

Quoting Fliguy (Reply 4):

As indicated in my post #198, the crew of the Legacy is in serious trouble "do crime de homícidio culposo" translation Negligent Homicide.

Sorry, Fliguy, but what the article you linked actually says is that at the present time the police has NO evidence of negligence on the part of the Legacy crew. Though an indictment would occur should new evidence in this regard emerge in the course of investigations.



Let's go Pens!
User currently offlineKhobar From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2379 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (7 years 11 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 32512 times:

Quoting Awthompson (Reply 9):
It is just that I have not found any other collision angle (besides the 737 being in a right bank) which would explain the damage to two separate areas on the Legacy which are so far apart both vertically and laterally.

The damage to the Legacy's winglet could have been caused by the 737's port horizontal stablizer. The damage to the Legacy's horizontal stabilizer could have been caused by debris. No banking involved. (Coulda, maybe, might, perhaps, etc.)

Consider the following videos: http://my.break.com/media/view.aspx?ContentID=69569
http://my.break.com/media/view.aspx?ContentID=103349
http://my.break.com/media/view.aspx?ContentID=156141

Better video of the F18/A4
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0MoUZeuC9zc&mode=related&search=

Some weird stuff can happen - IOW, you don't necessarily have to have a direct match of angles, etc. when aircraft are in flight.

Doesn't mean the 737 wasn't in a right bank, of course.

[Edited 2006-10-02 02:32:23]

User currently offlineAirbrasil From Brazil, joined Nov 2003, 205 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (7 years 11 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 32209 times:

Hello everyone, I'm at work and do not have my computer.. after seeing the photos and reading some of the posts I believe that both planes were heading straight for eachother at the same level (ATC's Error)... As 737 detected Legacy, it banked to the right, hitting the winglet and tail section of rudder... as for the 737, it might have damaged the wing as well as bottom fuselage causing controls to go dead.. The Legacy captain did not see the 737 since the shadow from the sun blocked the view...

The photo below if just a handmade scenario that I believe it might have happened.. Awthompson thanks for the link but I cannot open right now at work.

Airbrasil




User currently offlineAwthompson From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 474 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 11 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 32094 times:

Referring to reply 9

I wonder if at such a high speed (in excess of 1000 mph) debris from initial contact between the Legacy winglet and any part of the 737 would have been deflected so far inboard and upward to strike the horizontal stabilizer of the Legacy as well. Check the front view of the Legacy in Part 3.

I agree that your posted videos show strange things happening, however two of them show aircraft travelling in the same direction as each other.

Head on collisions and the subsequent debris emission would be on an exponentially faster timescale. I suggest that the airflow and momentum of the 737/Legacy collision would immediately carry debris rearwards and in the same path of flight of either aircraft initially.

I know of course that few head on collisions at high altitude and high speed have been documented and little is known about what may or may not happen.

I can only speculate!

Damage to the Legacy is "relatively light" although only millimetres away from being catastrophic. They certainly had fortune on their side! Loss of the horizontal stabilizer or the elevater of the Legacy would have been a different story and looking at the pictures in part 2, that almost happened.

Anyway, it is 2am here in Ireland and I must get up for work in the morning!

Regards, and may the families of those who have lost loved ones be comforted in their hour of need.


User currently offlineULMFlyer From Brazil, joined Sep 2006, 475 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (7 years 11 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 32096 times:

Quoting Airbrasil (Reply 14):
I believe that both planes were heading straight for eachother at the same level (ATC's Error)

Sorry Airbrasil, but this is highly unlikely. Not only would it involve ATC error but also pilot error from one of the aircraft. Airplanes flying in almost opposite directions should not be at the same flight level. There are specific FLs for eastbound aircraft and different ones for westbound planes. On the other hand, if ATC issued a clearance to climb or descend to one of the aircraft, then it's another story. An ANAC director, Denise Abreu, also believes at this point that an ATC error is unlikely.

Source: http://oglobo.globo.com/pais/mat/2006/10/01/285916103.asp

In the same article, ANAC's president, Milton Zuanazzi is quoted as saying that the Legacy's TCAS was working when it left SJK and also when it was tested at Cachimbo AFB. Whether it was turned off by the crew, as suggested by a quote posted by OPNLguy in Part 3, is not mentioned. As a matter of fact, I haven't seen that piece of info in the Brazilian press yet.

Debris also is spread throughout a 20 km2 area, thus the difficulty is locating the CVR and FDR.

Source: http://oglobo.globo.com/pais/mat/2006/10/01/285921583.asp

(Portuguese only, sorry)

[Edited 2006-10-02 03:12:18]

[Edited 2006-10-02 03:20:36]


Let's go Pens!
User currently offlineAwthompson From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 474 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 11 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 32019 times:

Hi Airbrasil

That is a possibility and close to what I have been thinking.

When two aircraft meet head on, it is aviation law to break right. The Legacy didn't, so surely the 737 did, although too late sadly. A right bank would explain the damage points on the Legacy.

Buenas Noches from Ireland. (I only know Spanish, sorry about that!)

I will check the remainder of this thread tommorrow at my work. I will sleep now.


User currently offlineAwthompson From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 474 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 11 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 31984 times:

Wow, if debris is spread over such a distance, then we are looking at aircraft break up well before impact with the ground. I thought that was the case when I first saw the aerial photos of some of the wreckage in the trees.

User currently offlineCPHGuard From Denmark, joined Jun 2006, 278 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 11 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 31984 times:

Quoting ULMFlyer (Reply 16):
Whether it was turned off by the crew, as suggested by a quote posted by OPNLguy in Part 3, is not mentioned.

Can someone please clarify the following questions for me:

Is it possible to turn off the TCAS in a modern airliner? To me it seems a little like turning off your ABS brakes and Airbags in your car.

If it is possbile, what would be the reason for turning off the TCAS ?

It has been mentioned that the EMB had it's transponder turned off. I know this is possible, but wouldnt ATC contact the aircraft, when they lose the signal ?

Regads
Thomas


User currently offlineDeC From Greece, joined Aug 2005, 616 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (7 years 11 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 31755 times:

Quoting CPHGuard (Reply 19):

It is, just turn the tcas operation selector to anywhere but the 'TA/RA' mode (737/757/767/777, a32x, a31x from what i know). Reason is, if i recall correctly, to protect anyone standing around the plane (or boarding pax) while on the ground, from the dangerous and very powerful signal rays transmitted from the tcas system outside the aircraft. You set it on while ready to take off and while nobody is around and outside the aircraft.



DEC
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21511 posts, RR: 60
Reply 21, posted (7 years 11 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 31630 times:

Quoting OptionsCLE (Reply 6):
With the speeds of the aircraft involved and the confusion in such a situation, the account of a shaken pilot on the exact timing of a split second shaddow shouldn't be taken as gospel.

Personal accounts of chain of events in an emergency are not reliable. The brain gets more information than it can process, usually because it isn't paying that much attention to the beginning of the event, only to the part after the event, but the beginning of the event was observed. The brain will then reprocess that information too, and place it in the wrong point of the timeline.

Thus, the shadow may have come before the hit, but not have been processed correctly until the hit alerted the pilots' brains that all that information needs to be reexamined.

Eye witness accounts are not overly useful for establishing timelines.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9030 posts, RR: 75
Reply 22, posted (7 years 11 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 30741 times:

Anyone interested in seeing what the damage to the Legacy is like, please find below photos of the Legacy after it landed.








We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineEXC47 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 16 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 11 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 30055 times:

IMHO...
Did you notice the white line on the broken winglet ? Looks like it broke up from inside/outside or up/down. I believe in the theory that the winglet sliced thru or under the mid wing causing it to break up because of the forces/lift acting upon it. Control was then lost.


User currently offlineStil From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 345 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (7 years 11 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 29469 times:

Does anybody know if there were any transmissions to ATC from any of the aircrafts? It seems strange that nobody noticed anything...

Stil



....... Gueropppa! ......
25 Post contains links and images ABpositive : Looking at the photo of the crash site, the nether region of the right wing appears to be much less damaged than the right wing’s. Now this could be
26 Post contains images DeltaJet757 : News from ATW Online... No survivors in Brazil's worst air disaster Monday October 2, 2006 "No survivors have been found in the wreckage of the Gol 73
27 Zeke : That photo looks wrong for an aircraft that went vertically into the ground, that is more like a pancake, inverted flat spin. I noticed the missing e
28 BlueShamu330s : I don't want to make any conjecture about this until more details become available. However, I cannot get my head around the suggestion that a pilot,
29 Post contains links PHKLM : This thread is a follow up on the crash of Gol 1907; previously discussed in Part III, to be found here: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Par
30 Workhorse : He didn't turn off TCAS, he (allegedly) turned off transponder thus stoping TCAS from working. And this is more like turning off lights in your car w
31 RichM : Perhaps the 738 crew had TCAS set to "Above" or "Below" instead of the normal (N) setting. (Which would only show traffic according to where the swit
32 DeC : Do we know this for sure?
33 Vimanav : " target=_blank>http://www.airdisaster.com/cgi-bin/v...Lines This accident occurred during an era when aircraft structures were not as strong as they
34 Qantas744ER : Regarding the photo, the gear on the still intact wing is down and locked... a sign that the crew still tried to land somewere, but in the end lost lo
35 Remcor : Are you sure? I would think as technology has improved you would find that aircraft are actually "less strong" than in the past. What I mean, is that
36 Zeke : The FDR data from the Legacy has been analysed, it confirms that the aircraft was involved in a mid-air collision.
37 FlyHoss : That's not how TCAS works. Even tilted up or down, you still have coverage at your altitude. "Above" and "Below" still includes your current altitude
38 Antiuser : On a bit of a morbid note, Gol issued a statement shortly after the authorities confirmed there were no survivors. They will cover the costs of the fu
39 CURLYHEADBOY : Well, one thing that comes to my mind (wild speculation, obiouvsly), is that the pilot wanted to show the aircraft performances to the journalist he
40 Antiuser : Which is how it should always be done. If indeed this was the scenario (and I still find it hard to believe that a crew would turn off the transponde
41 Awthompson : Referring to Reply 27 (Zeke) - Since wreckage is spread over a large area, with this photo possibly showing one of the largest remaining parts ie, win
42 Post contains images CURLYHEADBOY : Something went very wrong with the TCAS system methinks, I have no knowledge of how the Embraer TCAS is displayed and operated, but I had the opportun
43 Gary2880 : that sounds like alot! are airlines normally so forth coming with generosity after a fatal crash?
44 Post contains images Swissy : Here is a photo of the center section
45 Post contains links and images PhotoLPPT : http://oglobo.globo.com/pais/mat/2006/10/02/285929322.asp First, my deepest condolences to all envolved. Second, Brazilian newspaper O Globo now indic
46 EXC47 : The photo shows the wings and wing box upside down. In this case the left wing shows more damage, right ? Also the gear down and locked means that may
47 N701AA : Why is there no fire damage on the wings? Where did the fuel go? Why it did not ignite on impact?
48 Awthompson : Referring to reply 46 (EXC47) Hi, when I refer to the right wing I am looking at the front view of the aeroplane and I get what you mean. We should re
49 Post contains images EXC47 :
50 LTBEWR : Is it possible that the Gol aircraft was also attempting to land at the same airport that the Excelaire a/c landed at? That may explain the gear being
51 Post contains images Swissy : Hope that one works
52 BuyantUkhaa : !!! The starboard wing is basically intact. The port wing has a part missing. Of course it's hard to tell whether that happened before or during impac
53 Newark777 : That wing looks to be in VERY good condition for a plane that hit the ground at a high rate of speed. Looks almost like a flat spin or mid-air breakup
54 EMA747 : It's hard to tell but it look a bit like the leading edge flaps are down doesn't it? The bit in front of the PR writing on the starboard wing looks li
55 BamMargera : On the 737 isnt two of the fuel tanks in the wings ? Doesnt look like there was any fires. And where did the engines go ?
56 Hiflyer : The fact that the mains are down is interesting...you would have to think that they were dropped while still having hydraulics intact which would mean
57 Airfoilsguy : Maybe the wing section broke free of the aircraft body. The body fore and aft of the wing section snaped off due to structural failure and fell strai
58 EMA747 : Also where is the crash site in realtion to the military base the Embraer landed at? Is there any indication that the GOL plane made an attempt to hea
59 Awthompson : An IN FLIGHT BREAK UP of the 737 is starting to look likely. (Referring to photo posted by Swissy (Reply 51) and concuring with EMA747 (reply 54).) Ev
60 Post contains images F9Animal : From the looks of the center section, we can say that the flight crew gave it their all to get that plane down safely. I get chills looking at that pi
61 727forever : Whether this had an causual affect or not, it is a problem within the worlds atc system. I had situation 3 years ago with Minneapolis center and Chic
62 United787 : Could the left wing been so damaged that most of the fuel dumped out before the wing structure impacted the ground, explaining why a fire never happe
63 EMA747 : Is that an earthy bank in the top left of the pic? If it is it looks a bit like it has been scraped (the lighter brown) and this could mean the port
64 Swissy : I can see his point, but to me it seams a farce so far on how the authorities are handling the whole situation, I just hope they have a lot more info
65 Post contains images Dougbr2006 : In the Brazilian press and websites it is being reported that the B737 crew requested an altitude change to FL390 just before the incident the Legacy
66 2H4 : You might be right, but the reverse is also possible. Depending on the direction of the force applied, the composite structure could easily bear more
67 BOAC707 : As a former criminal investigator in my previous career, let me tell you that the investigators on the ground with the Legacy have a pretty good pictu
68 Mandala499 : OK, we've pinned down the collision based on whatever info is out there... That is, the 738 was banking right to avoid the collision but clipped the L
69 Mika : While i am no mechanic or expert in physics i personally would feel that the wing structure of the Embraer would take more damage than just loosing t
70 PPVRA : I think that's very interesting. The article states that the GOL flight was cleared by MAO ATC to climb from FL350 to FL390, not the Legacy. The Lega
71 PlanesNTrains : I wonder how this meshes with the alleged statement that the Legacy had turned off it's transponder and was climbing to FL390? As with this entire di
72 Post contains images Dougbr2006 : Quoting BOAC707 My guess would be that both aircraft rolled to the right and the stabilizer sliced into the fuselage of the 737 causing decompression,
73 PPVRA : These were A.net speculation or the media talking to aviation "experts" as to what could have possibly happened, not from official sources.
74 EMA747 : Thats kind of what I was thinking. Surely the winglet would just embed itself in the 738 body and snap off, not rip right down the body? The wing of
75 Dreamflight767 : Again, speculation... But what if the wing tip of the Legacy went into the bottom fuselage of the 737 and the Legacy's horizontal stab. hit the bottom
76 SeeTheWorld : Yea, that's what I was thinking; or that the Legacy's horizontal stab it the 737 left engine.
77 United787 : From what we know, I thought the Legacy pilot did not see the 737 until impact and so therefore would not have rolled to the right. I think we can sa
78 PlanesNTrains : While it may not have been accurate, I was referring to the comments attributed to the NYT's writer who was said to have commented that the cockpit c
79 OPNLguy : The 737 does not have a fuel dump system. That would be just that--an assumption--and the presence of the 738 in numerous pieces on the ground sugges
80 BOAC707 : I can understand your reluctance to see my suggestion based on your photograph, and you do make a valid arguement. However, my theory is based on a c
81 PlanesNTrains : If it was indeed an inflight breakup over an unpopulated dense jungle, I hope that they are able to find those pieces, particularly the FDR/CVR's. It
82 OPNLguy : Those comments should not be attributed to the NYT writer (Joe Sharkey). In one of the previous 800-900 messages, I posted a blurb from another board
83 Mandala499 : Doug, Well, at least it gives us an impression on one of the possibilities... Try the Legacy at wings level... And instead of 180degree direction diff
84 EXC47 : I believe there's a white line below the teared winglet. Compare pic 2 and 3 reply#22. What do you think ...?
85 Mrocktor : Pouco provável means unlikely. That is a very bad assumption to make. Airplanes are designed to take stress in very specific directions and intensit
86 PlanesNTrains : Got it - it was not direct report of his comments. I misunderstood then. Thank you, -Dave
87 Post contains links PPVRA : Another pic from the underbelly and a few from the rescue efforts: http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/folha/g.../album/p_20060930-acidente04.shtml Click on
88 RIXrat : If I remember correctly, the NYT reporter said in a e-mail to his wife the they were flying straight and level with the sun to the left of the aircraf
89 D L X : That's what I was thinking. I think we shouldn't think of the Legacy wing like a knife, but more like a bullet. Think about a bullet-hole: a little b
90 Derik737 : We were thinking the same thing here today when looking at the pictures. All of the panels appear to have been "blown off".
91 Mrocktor : A bit faster, actually. Good analogy though. mrock
92 United787 : It looks like there are some traces of burning coming from some of the panels.
93 Post contains images Mach4 : According to the Brazilian Airforce the crash site location is 10°28' S 53°15' W I made a line from BSB to MAO and that location is only about 3 km
94 EMA747 : Mach4, do you have any idea where on your map the military base is that the Legacy landed at? My earlier post was this:
95 Post contains images Mach4 : about 230 km away (143 miles) (the other white line at the bottom is a direct line from SJK to MAO and the horizontal line is the division between th
96 Airmaxfra : On those link PPVRA posted some lines above there is a photo in which it seems the main gear was extended, doesnt it ? Or can someone explain the gear
97 Clickhappy : Didn't the Shuttle crash as a result of the head build-up from the hole, not the actual hole damage? Seems to me I say MythBusters where they pressuri
98 ULMFlyer : I know this has been corrected in previous threads, but for the record ALL the airspace in Brazil is under military control. Centers in Brazil, calle
99 CURLYHEADBOY : This thread is terribly long to read and people are beginning to ask the same questions over and over again, can someone please write down a summary
100 D L X : Assuming you meant heat, sure, but the heat that was let in was a result of the size of the hole. This is generally the case - the bigger the hole in
101 Mach4 : 16:35 GOL requests altitude change (35 to 39) 16:48 Last radar contact on GOL How long would it take to change from FL350 to FL390? Seems like the Gol
102 Newark777 : Correct, the hole allowed plasma from the outside to get inside the wing, and essentially melt away the internal supports. Harry
103 PPVRA : Google Earth coordinates for PR-GTD are -10.4666666919, -53.2500000037. PP-VMK (RG flt 254) is approx. 238nm (~441km/273mi) west at -10.7145456555, -5
104 Richierich : How are Gol operations affected today [Monday]? And yesterday [Sunday] for that matter? Did they operate flights between Manaus and Brasilia? Has Gol
105 D L X : I think that would be a good topic for a separate thread. This one seems to be focused on speculation about the cause.
106 Post contains links Mach4 : from www.joesharkey.com: Monday, October 02, 2006 Astonished to Be Alive... As many of you know, I was a passenger on the corporate jet that was invol
107 Clickhappy : So, my sources were correct, they have "detained" the crew, it would appear for more than routine questioning. This is a tragic accident. Of course al
108 Post contains links Mach4 : They found the GOL flight recorder! http://g1.globo.com/Noticias/Brasil/0,,AA1295444-5598,00.html edit: both FDR and CVR were found[Edited 2006-10-02
109 OPNLguy : CVR or DFDR, or (hopefully) both?
110 D L X : How do you know that?
111 Post contains images Mach4 : Picture released by ANAC of Joseph Lepore (FO, left) and Jan Palldino (co-pilot, to the right with the hat) : They look pretty relaxed to me.
112 Mach4 : Both.
113 CURLYHEADBOY : "worried" sounds a bit too much to me, ok this guy has his nerves wrecked and I understand him, but the rest of the people onboard the Legacy are jus
114 Mach4 : Yeah, he is way off-base... Another piece of incorrect information in his blog-post is that Cachimbo is a "top-secret air base"
115 Post contains links Mach4 : Some very interesting high-res photos can be found on the Brazilian Airforce website: http://www.fab.mil.br/imprensa/Notic...2006/10_out/0210_fotos_re
116 Dreamflight767 : Man, not even when they are involved, first hand in person can reporters get it right.
117 Newark777 : More evidence of an inflight breakup. Harry
118 RichM : Two F/O's? Huh?
119 Post contains links Mach4 : Sorry, I'm not used to aviation terms. Captain is on the left, F/O on the right. Latest news is that their passports have been taken and they are bot
120 David L : I took it to mean that he's worried about their future from a legal point of view. Formerly top-secret.
121 Swissy : Could not agree more, lets hope these boxes have some answers.... BTW would someone know how far the 737-8 engine is away from the wing tip?? Thanks
122 Post contains images Rudi : Red dot: Boeing crash site; UZ6: airway being used by both planes; Thinner blue line that crosses RONIL, XINGU and NABOL intersections: borderline be
123 EMA747 : Mach4, very interesting, thanks for the link. There is quite clearly no sign of the fusalage in front of or behind the wing section and no othere bebr
124 OPNLguy : If my math is correct, from the outboard side of the engine cowling to the outside reach of the winglet is 46 feet 9 inches...
125 PPVRA : Apparantly so. It seems like an over-reaction by the judge IMO, who aprehended their passports and wants them to stay in the country to help investig
126 Newark777 : If I was one of the pilots I would get to my respective embassy ASAP. That is a ridiculous step to take to not allow them out of the country. Harry
127 LTBEWR : I am not surprised and suggested in an earlier post that the flight crew was being detained for the investigation. Those whom are Americans must be ab
128 ULMFlyer : Well, technically they're neither detained nor under arrest. They just can't leave the country. The judge agreed with a state DA who asked for their p
129 DeC : Yeah, i agree as well but how can this be resulting off the legacy clipping? Evasive manoeuvres afterwards while trying to control the plane and ther
130 Luxair_ca : hello did anybody see, that all the trees around the wingbox are still standing..... i d say, that the wingbox fell down vertically into the ground...
131 EMA747 : I had the same thought too.
132 CURLYHEADBOY : I hope this doesn't turn into a diplomatic incident, this would likely hamper the investigation. US and Brazilian authorities should cooperate to wor
133 Katekebo : I think this is perfectly reasonable step to keep them in Brazil until the investigation (or at least its first stage to clarify responsibilities) is
134 Post contains links Mach4 : http://g1.globo.com/Noticias/Brasil/0,,AA1295701-5598,00.html The report is a bit confusing but it says that 100 bodies have been found in the tail se
135 Post contains links PPVRA : According to the link below, ANAC is working with the possibility of a mid-air break up. It's the first mention of a midair break up in the media I be
136 Awthompson : A number of posts ask how a winglet and horizontal stabilizer tip could bring down a new Boeing 737-800. There cannot be many documented head on colli
137 Awthompson : Very recent reports are describing the wreckage of the 737 spread over a large area maybe 100km or even 200 km. This confirms not only an in-flight br
138 Richierich : Great post, Awthompson. Not to draw attention away from GOL1907, but it must be quite a disturbing thought to know that an aircraft you flew on across
139 OPNLguy : There are so many possible scenarios. Now that they've today recovered the CVR and DFDR, hopefully we'll soon see what the actual sequence of events
140 PPVRA : They could not absolutely confirm a collision at first, but it is confirmed now-- after they analyzed the Legacy's data recorder.
141 OPNLguy : Check post #135 in this thread. The poster linked to an article that alludes to the authorities having changed their minds...
142 Richierich : I must say that all of the pictures I have seen seem to be of the mid-section, which as pointed out earlier seems to have flopped down into the jungl
143 Awthompson : Reply to Richierich (reply 138) (Yes I was very shocked when I heard about XV179. I flew (as passenger) from England over to Gander Newfoundland and G
144 Boac707 : I think an in flight break up is obvious. As I mentioned in reply 67, I am sticking to my theory that an explosive decompression probably took the pla
145 Soon7x7 : luxair_ca...look carefully at the wings...no upper wing skins...no fuel...no fire, appears that the left wing(portside) hit leading edge first while i
146 Richierich : How many seats are behind the wing on Gol's 738s? It does seem a little odd that somebody threw out the number "100 bodies" but maybe this was an est
147 OPNLguy : Either one...
148 ULMFlyer : The Minister of Defense is quoted in the above link as saying that "approximately" 100 bodies were found in the tail section. So, it is an estimate.
149 Hoya : Trust me, US Embassy in Brasilia has been doing all it can since news of the crash broke out.
150 Brenintw : Is it possible that extending the landing gear while in a high-speed dive/fall actually did more damage (worsening already-existing structural damage
151 Post contains images Antiuser : Here's an image sent to me by a forum reader which shows a few different ways the aircraft could have collided...
152 D L X : You know, if there was an impact with shattering or explosions, it is highly possible that while the winglet struck the plane first, it was debris fr
153 T prop : In the pix it appears the left wing is only the lower skin and bits of leading edge. It looks like the left wing failed. If the 737 was cleared to cli
154 United787 : Antiuser: Thanks for the diagrams, I wanted to the exact same thing. It seems like scenarios A&B are less likely since the right wing of the 737 appea
155 Domokun : Honestly, I disagree. The information they may have could be quite useful closer to the scene of the accident than further away. Moreover, if this we
156 F9Animal : The flight crew of GOL must have taken some action before the breakup. If they extended flaps and gear, it could have assisted in the breakup of the p
157 Antiuser : They're not being illegally detained, they're (as far as I know) under the custody of the US embassy. There's an investigation in progress and these
158 Post contains links Mach4 : Fascinating reading: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/03/bu...00&partner=homepage&pagewanted=all
159 Antiuser : Thanks for posting that - much more detailed and better-worded than the one on his blog.
160 Post contains images Scarebus03 : The probable reason there was no fire is because the engines sheared off during the descent due to high lateral forces. This would allow the fuel to e
161 EFBfan : Assuming 737-800 gear system is similar to 737-300, alternate gear extension system consists of 3 handles in the cockpit, linked by cables to the gear
162 BuyantUkhaa : You mean the starboard wing? I think it is in fact pretty consistent with A if you look at the wreckage. Remember the 737 wing lies inverted in the f
163 Airbrasil : Just read on the Brazilian news that possibly the Emb did not follow intructions from ATC Braslia.. its getting a mess.. We need to wait for the black
164 Legoguy : Was it not the left wing tip and the left horizontal tail stabilizer that was damaged on the Legacy? In a way, I guess it's extremely lucky the Legac
165 LTBEWR : I suspect that this will be a messy situation, made worse by the treats of criminal penalties and the number of possible contributors to this tragedy.
166 JJMNGR : If this would have happen in US airspace, would the Brazilian crew be treated as well? I doubt!
167 Hardiwv : The American crew through the whole investigation had been escorted and assisted by the US vice-consul (who was present the whole time of the interro
168 D L X : Sensationalized reading.
169 NIKV69 : Holy shit one of the pilots lives in my town! Unbelievable story. Must have been some ride.
170 Legoguy : Whoops, upon further inspection, I am just realising that the diagrams are showing the rear of the aircraft, meaning the diagram does indeed show the
171 EXC47 : IMHO I still think that fig A would be the collision scenario. If the outer part of the wing had a catastrofic failure it could've hit the empenage o
172 CURLYHEADBOY : Indeed. Sorry, but I tend not to trust this guy... No ATC? No request for vectors to the closest field? Again, where was the ATC gone? Ok, maybe true
173 Post contains links Hiflyer : http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/03/bu...6d73b9dca&ei=5094&partner=homepage Long interview NYT by the reporter ob the emb.
174 SeeTheWorld : I suspect they have a pretty good idea, at this point, what happened, and I don't believe there will be any cover-up. Just because the press hasn't b
175 Hiflyer : STW...may disagree a bit. As widely reported in the press this accident has occured during a pretty dubious election in Brazil full of charges and cou
176 SeeTheWorld : You may be right, but if I had to guess, I'd figure that it will all come out, regardless of whether some might try to cover-up. Cover-ups generally
177 Post contains images Richierich : I would hope that they would be treated well if this happened in the US! Are you implying they would be tortured or something? I think that not being
178 Hoya : It seems like ATC carries some blame in this accident. I just hope that the two pilots of the Legacy aren't used as scapegoats if ATC did mess up.
179 PPVRA : More information: The Legacy was indeed in the wrong altitude. Once they left SJK, 37,000ft was correct, but as the Legacy flew by BSB on their way to
180 Lemurs : In a related side note, on my way to work today I drove by Renton airfield (in Western WA a few miles from Boeing Field...Boeing does 737 finishing wo
181 Incitatus : I am wondering what airplanes could be using the same airway behind the Gol flight. The Gol departure is the first afternoon departure out of MAO towa
182 Mika : Like always; there are so many things that went wrong in order to cause an airdisaster - this airdisaster this time. Bad ATC communications right in
183 Post contains links PPVRA : A few more pics (including close ups of the damage to the Legacy and a departure picture from SJK): http://www.estadao.com.br/ext/especi...erias/cidad
184 Post contains links and images Famfmarques : Guys, maybe my question should be posted in another topic, but I´m just curious... why planes fly the same airway (both directions) with only a separ
185 Antiuser : I'd be interested to know what your sources are for "a pretty dubious election"... Based on what? So far you've been the first to mention that - I'm
186 Lemurs : Because it's much easier to maintain separation when you're tracking only one vector. In an airplane, the easiest vector to manage is altitude. When
187 Post contains images Mrocktor : It's extremely lucky in every way! Apparently they were in a communications "black hole" during the incident. I understand vast tracts of completely
188 Mandala499 : PPVRA, Thanks, now if that info is true, we more or less have a good guess how it all started! Mandala499
189 Post contains links PPVRA : You're welcome Mandala. Also, I've posted a Part 5 to this thread since it is almost 200 posts long, so let's continue the discussion over there: PR-G
190 Richierich : Sadly, I don't think it will "life as usual" for Gol for a very long time. Fortunately, it is not the Brazilian press performing this investigation (
191 Leigh pilgrim : An example here is the Aeroflot A310 tragedy when the kid took over the controls, however there was another reason, that was due to the auto pilot di
192 Antiuser : It's already been confirmed that a collision did occur. The exact details will only be known once the FDR data from the 738 is processed, though.
193 Famfmarques : Thanks for your insight
194 Airfoilsguy : I think the news media is more concerned with the senator who was sending disgusting instant messages to 16 year old boys. If it wasn't for that cert
195 Virgin747 : Also the school shootings etc.... But I did find video of the accident on CNN's main page.
196 Echster : Maybe I missed this info here and if so, my bad. I'm not one to spread rumor but this is what I have heard. I have heard off-hand that the area has li
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