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Gulf Air Pilot Averts Mid-air Collision Over Iraq  
User currently offlineGF-A330 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2001, 1643 posts, RR: 2
Posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 11608 times:

The quick thinking and skill of a Gulf Air captain avoided a mid-air collision with a military aircraft over Iraq.

The drama unfolded early on Saturday morning as Gulf Air's flight to London with 156 passengers on board was crossing Iraqi airspace, said an airline spokesman.Radar and the plane's hi-tech sensors revealed that an object was hurtling towards it. The captain was forced to change both route and altitude suddenly to avoid a collision, said the spokesman. He had only 10 seconds to manoeuvre.

"As the airspace over Iraq is controlled by allied forces, this had to be a military aircraft which should not have been flying at that altitude," said the spokesman.

The flight continued to London without any problem.

40 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCRGsFuture From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 536 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 11585 times:

Quoting Spokesman:
"As the airspace over Iraq is controlled by allied forces, this had to be a military aircraft which should not have been flying at that altitude,"

I think the most important thing to remember is that in the US, transient military aircraft have right of way. Also who right now are the controllers in Iraq?



Flying you to your destination; your girlfriend to her dreams.
User currently offlineORDflier From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 174 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 11324 times:

Right of Way? Maybe as far as priority with ATC Controllers, but when aircraft are hurtling thru the
skies issues such as this should already be figured out.

Either the Gulf Air flight or the other aircraft were at the wrong altitude or wrong track or the ATC responsible for the
sector screwed up.



ORDflier
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16819 posts, RR: 51
Reply 3, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 11178 times:

Im wondering if it was an unmanned drone or perhaps a surveilance platform of some sort.


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 4, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 11153 times:

Why would the GF aircraft fly over Iraqi airspace? I thought it was still dangerous to overfly Iraq.

User currently offlineQantas767 From Australia, joined Jul 2000, 101 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 11135 times:

Quoting CRGsFuture (Reply 1):
Also who right now are the controllers in Iraq?

The RAAF controlled Baghdad International for a while, Im not sure if that coverage extended to the whole country, or if they are still in country



IF IT DON'T HOVER - DON'T BOTHER
User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5397 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 11066 times:

Quoting CRGsFuture (Reply 1):
I think the most important thing to remember is that in the US, transient military aircraft have right of way.



Quoting ORDflier (Reply 2):
Right of Way? Maybe as far as priority with ATC Controllers,

I don't think you'll find transient military aircraft have any more 'right of way' than any other aircraft, except when using certain callsigns.

Now, it may well be that in Iraq airspace all military traffic have priority (would make sense), but this not US standard practice.

Not really relevant to the discussion anyway.

Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineJben From Australia, joined Aug 2006, 77 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 11031 times:

I too thought civilian aircraft were flying around Iraqi airspace... I recall some trip reports showing skymaps with a dog leg to avoid entering Iraqi airspace.

User currently offlineQantas767 From Australia, joined Jul 2000, 101 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 10973 times:

Remember the DHL A300 which was nearly shot down a couple of years ago. They were contracted by the military so Im not sure whether they fall into civil or military? I would say civil.


IF IT DON'T HOVER - DON'T BOTHER
User currently offlineTRVYYZ From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 1369 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 10952 times:

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 4):
Why would the GF aircraft fly over Iraqi airspace? I thought it was still dangerous to overfly Iraq.

I thought the same but not exactly what I saw in my last trip to India by KU (LHR-KWI leg).



User currently offlineN754PR From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 10834 times:

Military have the right of way.. well I'm sure the US Military does, I mean the US has the right of way in everything!!

I remember many years ago at Kai Tak, there was a greyhound getting ready to depart back to a carrier in the SCS when on radar a pilot started telling the controller there was a UFO on his radar, later he comes back saying its a military plane (he can see it) flying from anything from 5000 to 35000 feet. Turned out it was US Navy jets from the carrier.

The tower controller informed the greyhound to get back to his carrier ASAP and tell his people to get their aircraft out of commercial air corridors and in future to tell them when they are playing about.


User currently offline3MilesToWRO From Poland, joined Mar 2006, 280 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 10180 times:

Quoting CRGsFuture (Reply 1):
I think the most important thing to remember is that in the US, transient military aircraft have right of way. Also who right now are the controllers in Iraq?

I think the most important thing to remember is that, despite efforts, Iraq is not in US :->


User currently offlineBAtriple7 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 227 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 10180 times:

Quoting CRGsFuture (Reply 1):
I think the most important thing to remember is that in the US, transient military aircraft have right of way

1. Iraq is not in the US

2. Even if they have right of way, risking flying into a civilian airliner (if that was indeed the case) is no way to prove it.


User currently offlineJJJ From Spain, joined May 2006, 1788 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 10080 times:

Quoting Jben (Reply 7):
too thought civilian aircraft were flying around Iraqi airspace... I recall some trip reports showing skymaps with a dog leg to avoid entering Iraqi airspace.

Two years ago I took a KL flight AMS-BAH, then returning Kuwait - AMS and both overflew Iraq.

I'm pretty sure my MEA flight Kuwait - Beirut this January did, too.

Airliners at cruising altitude don't have much to fear from manpads (the DHL A300 was either landing or taking off, IIRC).

J.


User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5397 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 10033 times:

Quoting N754PR (Reply 10):
Military have the right of way.. well I'm sure the US Military does,

Not in the USA...except for certain special callsigns or circumstances.

Quoting N754PR (Reply 10):
The tower controller informed the greyhound to get back to his carrier ASAP and tell his people to get their aircraft out of commercial air corridors and in future to tell them when they are playing about.

Right, what you're saying is they DIDN'T have right of way at Kai Tak...they just thought they did!

Like I said, Iraq may have special rules regarding military flights...but again, 'right-of-way' has nothing to do with the initial post.

Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineBoeing744 From Canada, joined Jun 2005, 1829 posts, RR: 23
Reply 15, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 9666 times:

Back on topic...

Kudos to the Gulf Air pilot! His quick thinking and experience probably saved many lives. I am assuming this would be an A330, right?


User currently offlineThomson735 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 162 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 9574 times:

Last time i flew out to Goa India, on FCA we flew through Iraq albeit the Northern borders but we still corssed Iraqi airspace, i dont think its really a threat, Terrorist over there dnt have the ability to shoot an airliner down from for eg FL350 the only people who do are the allies,  Wink so with that i think its relatively safe Big grin

Thomson735


User currently offlineATCGOD From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 661 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 9461 times:

Ok, I'm going to give it to you straight. I was a controller at Balad AB, Iraq last summer (returned September 2005). I worked Baghdad Center, which later became Balad Center. Iraq is broken up into three different centers, Kirkuk (now Baghdad North Center) which controls the north 1/3 of the country, Balad Center controls the middle 1/3 of the country, and Talil Center (now Ali Center) controls the south 1/3 of the country.

EDIT: I took out some stuff that probably shouldn't have been in here...sorry.

Quoting CRGsFuture (Reply 1):
Also who right now are the controllers in Iraq?

USAF ATC controls all airspace in Iraq except for Basra. Certain areas in Iraq have Army and Marine controllers.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 4):
Why would the GF aircraft fly over Iraqi airspace?

Several airlines fly into Iraq. Jordanian and Iraqi Air fly into Baghdad. KLM, Kuwaiti, Gulf Air, CargoLux, British Airways, Giant, Martinair, and several others overfly Iraq...including all the rotator flights into Al Udied Air Base in Qatar.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 4):
I thought it was still dangerous to overfly Iraq.

Not in terms of ground to air fire (for transiting flights). But yes, flights that land in Iraq will occasionally take small arms fire and the occasional C-130 will report RPG fire.

Quoting Qantas767 (Reply 5):
The RAAF controlled Baghdad International for a while, Im not sure if that coverage extended to the whole country, or if they are still in country

Nope, not true. At least as of 2005.

[Edited 2006-10-03 17:42:23]

User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9523 posts, RR: 42
Reply 18, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 9292 times:

Quoting N754PR (Reply 10):
I remember many years ago at Kai Tak, there was a greyhound getting ready to depart back to a carrier in the SCS when on radar a pilot started telling the controller there was a UFO on his radar, later he comes back saying its a military plane (he can see it) flying from anything from 5000 to 35000 feet. Turned out it was US Navy jets from the carrier.

Some things never change.  Smile

When I was there in 1969-1971, a civil airliner to/from Kai Tak had a near miss with some A-7s from the USS Saratoga. I went past her on the ferry across the harbour a couple of days later but I don't know where she was during the incident.


User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5397 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 8912 times:

Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 17):
Not in terms of ground to air fire (for transiting flights). But yes, flights that land in Iraq will occasionally take small arms fire and the occasional C-130 will report RPG fire.

Yes, from the NOTAM is appears FL 200 is the minimum transit altitude:

"2. Flight prohibition. No person may conduct flight operations over or within the territory of Iraq except as provided in paragraphs 3 and 4 of this SFAR or except as follows:

(a) Overflights of Iraq may be conducted above flight level (FL) 200 subject to the approval of, and in accordance with the conditions established by, the appropriate authorities of Iraq.

(b) Flights departing from countries adjacent to Iraq whose climb performance will not permit operation above FL 200 prior to entering Iraqi airspace may operate at altitudes below FL 200 within Iraq to the extent necessary to permit a climb above FL 200, subject to the approval of, and in accordance with the conditions established by, the appropriate authorities of Iraq."


Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineAirWillie6475 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 2448 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 7922 times:

Quoting CRGsFuture (Reply 1):
I think the most important thing to remember is that in the US, transient military aircraft have right of way.

Actually in the U.S hot air balloons have the right of way before any type of aircraft.


User currently offlineATCGOD From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 661 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 7825 times:

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 20):
Actually in the U.S hot air balloons have the right of way before any type of aircraft.

Actually, an aircraft in distress has the right of way over any other aircraft!


User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2691 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 7384 times:

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 4):
Why would the GF aircraft fly over Iraqi airspace? I thought it was still dangerous to overfly Iraq.

Won't United also be flying over Iraq when they start flying to Kuwait from IAD?

Quoting BAtriple7 (Reply 12):
1. Iraq is not in the US

You didn't hear? Things are going so well in Iraq, W has decided to annex Iraq as our 51st state. Sorry Puerto Rico and D.C., you will just have to wait a little longer.


User currently offlineATCGOD From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 661 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 7291 times:

Quoting United787 (Reply 22):
Won't United also be flying over Iraq when they start flying to Kuwait from IAD?

I'd say most likely they will. Unless they choose to fly over the Mediterranean and over Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and then into Kuwait. It'd most likely be more economical to fly over Iraq however.


User currently offlineSkyexramper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 7073 times:

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 4):
Why would the GF aircraft fly over Iraqi airspace? I thought it was still dangerous to overfly Iraq.

What possible danger can there be flying over Iraq at FL300+? RPGs aren't saturn v rockets.


25 PADSpot : Drones often have the same systems as a "normal" aircraft. They just relay all radio communication to the operator/pilot on the ground. I don't know
26 BladeLWS : Most likely below that is military airspace, helo's, fighters, cargo aircraft. They probably don't need a civvie flying around in that area while A-1
27 ATCGOD : I won't pretend to know what avionics an F-16 has, but I will tell you that they must have something, otherwise how would they know where an aircraft
28 Thomson735 : as said theres no danger over Iraq from Militants they dont have the equip. allied forces do have the ability tho so only threat really is from our ow
29 Dash8pilot : The US air force might have the right way. But they still have to follow ATC clearance very carefully. Right of way doesn't mean you can do whatever y
30 ATCGOD : Don't forget the AN-12's/24's, 737's, A300's, and other aircraft that fly into the airports around the nation. It's not just military aircraft below
31 ClearedDirect : I believe there are more than just American military aircraft flying above Iraq. Arent the Canadians and British flying there as well? I would like to
32 ATCGOD : British? Yes. Canadians? I don't think so...but not as of September 2005.
33 ClearedDirect : I guess they just have ground forces then. My bad, I think they may be only in Afganistan.[Edited 2006-10-03 20:54:31]
34 ATCGOD : I think you're right on that. Remember the unfortunate friendly fire incident a few years ago?
35 Gary2880 : would that be the one where one of your patriot missiles managed to shoot down one of our tornado's? dont think the pilot and nav would agree that it
36 3MilesToWRO : Because of what? Wake turbulence? :->
37 ClearedDirect : I believe he is referring to a Canadian friendly fire incident where one of our aircraft dropped ordinance on their position when they called for clo
38 Post contains links Gary2880 : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot...ot_Fratricides_.28Friendly_Fire.29 Wasn't very long into the start of the war as far as i can remember. Month o
39 Post contains links Gary2880 : Oh, they also did that to us too. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2921807.stm
40 SWISSER : Mmmm, According to my system the flight was operated on A40-LH A340, and this was the crew on flight! I know some of them including the captain, let's
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