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Airbus Plan To Axe German Plant Sparks Crisis Talk  
User currently offlineOsiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3192 posts, RR: 25
Posted (7 years 10 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 8214 times:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/mai...l=/money/2006/10/03/cnairbus03.xml

This is probably worthy of a new thread as a) the old one is long and b) this is some new information.


I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
54 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 1, posted (7 years 10 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 8163 times:

I can understand why Hamburg's Senate is upset. If Airbus move the XFW operation to TLS, it would seem like lots of money will get lost. €750 millions isn't something you can waste.

User currently offlineOsiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3192 posts, RR: 25
Reply 2, posted (7 years 10 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 8121 times:

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 1):
I can understand why Hamburg's Senate is upset. If Airbus move the XFW operation to TLS, it would seem like lots of money will get lost. €750 millions isn't something you can waste.

Nope I don't blame them either. Also intersting in that article was the comment regarding the folks from the British plants being flown in for meetings regarding cuts.



I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11439 posts, RR: 61
Reply 3, posted (7 years 10 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 8070 times:

The most telling excerpt:

Thomas Mirow, the German finance secretary, has called for Berlin to take a direct stake in Airbus to prevent plant being switched to cheaper sites in Russia, India and China. He wants the state-bank Kfw to buy a bloc of EADS stock from DaimlerChrysler, which owns 22.5pc, a move that would amount to creeping nationalisation.

So finally it comes out: this pillar of the suposedly fantastic pan-European (anti-Anglosaxon) social/commercial model is -- big surprise -- turning to the government to bail them out because their economics don't work. Airbus has been focused too much on satisfying political interests rather than focusing on economic interests and the market.

Thus, we get the A380 which, while a technical marvel, is an increasingly-costly aircraft that, realistically, has a very small market prospect for the long-term.

Thus, we get Airbus management contemplating reductions at their manufacturing facilities to cut costs and become more efficient, only to have the impacted parties ask the government to step in and buy a part of the company.

Airbus' internal problems are no longer sustainable because a restructured and refocused Boeing -- with a dynamic sales force and an uber-attractive product (787) -- is now competitive much, much more effectively. Airbus has been sustainable up to now because state "research and development" subsidies have allowed them to lower their asking price for their planes and undercut competitor prices. But, unfortunately for Airbus, those days are now over.

There, I said it, the elephant in the room just went on a rampage.


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 4, posted (7 years 10 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 8071 times:

Unfortunately the word 'Axe' in the headline is wrong, Osiris30 - not your fault, or even probably the journalist's, probably the sub-editor's.

The story confirms what we knew, that Streiff wants to concentrate A380 production at Toulouse and switch the A320 to Hamburg. That might not be a bad deal for the Germans in the medium-term. At least they'll be building all the single-aisles, which are Airbus' only 'solid' products at the moment.

Odd how so many people - apparently including people in Airbus - see the A380 as the key project. It isn't, of course, it basically belongs to the past. The future is the A320 and the A350.



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineOsiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3192 posts, RR: 25
Reply 5, posted (7 years 10 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 8034 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 4):
Unfortunately the word 'Axe' in the headline is wrong, Osiris30

Ya I know Nav.. just reporting it under that headline as articles seem to get carried multiple times these days due to news wires. Makes a search on the forum easier IMHO.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 4):
Odd how so many people - apparently including people in Airbus - see the A380 as the key project. It isn't, of course, it basically belongs to the past. The future is the A320 and the A350.

Well I don't think it's the 320 either.. the 737 and 320 are both drawing to a close on their incredible careers. The 350 *is* the future of Airbus for the next 15-20 years IMHO.

As an aside the two parts of that article I found most interesting were:

Quote:
As rumours swept the sprawling Airbus network of 16 plants yesterday, British union leaders were told they would be meeting next week with Airbus chief Christian Streiff at the company's headquarters in Toulouse.

The A380s wings are built at Broughton in North Wales, a specialised task that cannot easily be moved elsewhere. But sources said there was no guarantee that all 13,000 Airbus staff in Britain would escape the cull.

Not because it was surprising, but it does seem to confirm cuts far and wide and:

Quote:
Hints that the A380 production line in Germany might be downgraded have provoked fury in the Hamburg Senate. The city has spent €750m to help secure the future of the plant, where the A380 cabins are installed with parts shipped from Toulouse.

Just further demonstrates the issues that Strieff has to deal with. (As well as being again, new information)



I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
User currently offlineBOE773 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 10 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 8021 times:

I would think that the awkard and time consuming surface transportation of the A380 fuselage shells also is a deciding factor in the consolidation of production. Moving these big shells by barge then having to truck them along narrow roads and thru little old villages with minimal clearances is not a modern way to assemble an aircraft.

User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 7, posted (7 years 10 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 7978 times:

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 5):
Well I don't think it's the 320 either.. the 737 and 320 are both drawing to a close on their incredible careers.

Yes - didnt want to mention the A320's looming problem. The 737 is currently out-selling Airbus' single-aisles by a factor of nearly three to one (503 to 186 this year).

Worse that that for the A320 in isolation. Incredibly, the 787 has outsold it this year (110 to 99).



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 8, posted (7 years 10 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 7972 times:
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Quoting Commavia (Reply 3):
There, I said it, the elephant in the room just went on a rampage.

Wrong elephant. Or wrong room. Even NAV20 -

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 4):
The future is the A320 and the A350.

- admits that the A320 is a critical part of Airbus' future, so if Hamburg gets that, they should be very happy.

It makes very little sense to have the A320 manufactured in Toulouse, and the rest of the family (A318, A319 and A321) at Finkenwerder.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 3):
So finally it comes out: this pillar of the suposedly fantastic pan-European (anti-Anglosaxon) social/commercial model is -- big surprise -- turning to the government to bail them out because their economics don't work.

What bail out? An investment is not a bail-out.

The "creeping nationalism" is more a reflection of the political views - and profound anti-European-ism - at the Telegraph than political reality at Airbus or in Germany.

 confused 

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 9, posted (7 years 10 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 7940 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 8):
What bail out? An investment is not a bail-out.

Whatever you call it, government intervention is sometimes unavoidable. But it shouldn't just 'reinforce failure', it should be aimed at setting up a new viable structure.

This is getting to be like 'watching old movies' to me. Increasing similarities to the case of 'Rolls-Royce 1971.' Minus, of course, any 'game-changing' product in the class of the RB211 engine (now known as the Trent).



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 10, posted (7 years 10 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 7917 times:
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Quoting NAV20 (Reply 9):
But it shouldn't just 'reinforce failure', it should be aimed at setting up a new viable structure.

I would be disinclined to call the A320 - or what has happened at Finkenwerder - "a failure".

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineBOE773 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 10 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 7898 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 3):
So finally it comes out: this pillar of the suposedly fantastic pan-European (anti-Anglosaxon) social/commercial model

So is Britain not European ?
It did join the EU, didn't it ?


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 962 posts, RR: 51
Reply 12, posted (7 years 10 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 7873 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 8):
What bail out? An investment is not a bail-out.

I respectfully disagree. That's starting to dance with some very thinly veiled euphemisms.

The government is taking a stake in industry as casuality for the mis-management of the A380 program. More bluntly, the political interest of the German state are at odds with the commercial realities of the EADS/Airbus conglomerate, and state control of industry is necessary to insure those political interest are met.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 8):
- admits that the A320 is a critical part of Airbus' future, so if Hamburg gets that, they should be very happy.

Aparently the German government doesn't think so...

Let's say they do get the entire A320 line, but what about the A320 replacement? If Airbus is still struggling when it comes time for A320 replacement (a possibility that cannot be denied), Airbus may turn to final production outside Europe. That leaves France with the widebodies and Germany with.... nothing.

Why else would the German government take a direct stake in EADS?

Thomas Mirow, the German finance secretary, has called for Berlin to take a direct stake in Airbus to prevent plant being switched to cheaper sites in Russia, India and China. He wants the state-bank Kfw to buy a bloc of EADS stock from DaimlerChrysler, which owns 22.5pc, a move that would amount to creeping nationalisation.


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 13, posted (7 years 10 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 7843 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 8):
What bail out? An investment is not a bail-out.

Thanks Mariner. It seems bail-out must have a different meaning in the N Hemi. This shuffle is about ownership. As Astuteman keeps pointing out in other threads, EADS does not seem to be short of money just at present. The future, well that might not be as rosy as they had hoped. But they still have a huge and profitable business even in the midst of their current woes.

Away from Airbus, this discussion also comes at a time when privatization is starting to hit a few "bumps". So triumphalists for for that process should also have a care.

Quoting BOE773 (Reply 11):
So is Britain not European ?
It did join the EU, didn't it ?

Depends who is asking! And also who you are asking in Britain. Reminds one of the old saying of what happens to those who try to sit on a fence!


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11439 posts, RR: 61
Reply 14, posted (7 years 10 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 7842 times:

Quoting BOE773 (Reply 11):
So is Britain not European ?

Economically, not really.

Britain's economy (and Ireland's) operate much more like America's than like Europe's. Continental Europe is a socialist haven with stagnant economies and high unemployment.

One needs look no further than Msr. Chirac's nearly continual criticism of the "Anglo-Saxon model" to recognize that at least when it comes to economics, Britain is decidedly not like its E.U. neighbors.


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 15, posted (7 years 10 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 7832 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 8):
What bail out? An investment is not a bail-out.

Thanks Mariner. It seems bail-out must have a different meaning in the N Hemi. This shuffle is about ownership. As Astuteman keeps pointing out in other threads, EADS does not seem to be short of money just at present. The future, well that might not be as rosy as they had hoped. But they still have a huge and profitable business even in the midst of their current woes.

Away from Airbus, this discussion also comes at a time when privatization is starting to hit a few "bumps". So triumphalists for for that process should also have a care.

Quoting BOE773 (Reply 11):
So is Britain not European ?
It did join the EU, didn't it ?

Depends who is asking! And also who you are asking in Britain. Reminds one of the old saying of what happens to those who try to sit on a fence!


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 16, posted (7 years 10 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 7831 times:
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Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 12):
I respectfully disagree. That's starting to dance with some very thinly veiled euphemisms.

You can think that. I don't. Europe has a long history of investment in private enterprise.

It may not be the American way, but that doesn't make it wrong. That's why it is Europe.

It may be preferable to what is happening to (say) the Thatcher-ised airlines in Australia and New Zealand, but that's a politcla debate.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 12):
and state control of industry is necessary to insure those political interest are met.

I didn't read "state control". And I am not clear how a minority stake can be "control".

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 12):
Let's say they do get the entire A320 line, but what about the A320 replacement?

What indeed? It is really jumping the gun to suggest it won't go to Finkenwerder.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 12):
Why else would the German government take a direct stake in EADS?

As a counter balance to the investment games the Russians are playing, perhaps?

To keep parity with the French - or even surpass it?

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineBOE773 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 10 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 7814 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 14):
Britain is decidedly not like its E.U. neighbors.

Then why did it join the EU ?

Sorry for the little bit of thread creep here guys, but we will get back on track.


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11439 posts, RR: 61
Reply 18, posted (7 years 10 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 7791 times:

Quoting BOE773 (Reply 17):
Then why did it join the EU ?

It's a topic left for another thread, but I think anyone who lives in the U.K. -- regardless of their personal political and/or ideological orientation or personal opinion regarding European integration -- would readily tell you that the U.K. is one of the most "Eurosceptic" countries in the E.U. The U.K. is perhaps the most reluctant western European E.U. member when it comes to the union -- poll after poll shows that Britons don't want the Euro and, oftentimes, don't want to deal with the E.U.'s bureaucratic politics and being told what to do by unelected officials in Brussels. The U.K. also has one of the most active and impassioned anti-E.U. ("Independence") movements in all of Europe.


User currently offlineAirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2825 posts, RR: 42
Reply 19, posted (7 years 10 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 7791 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 12):
Quoting Mariner (Reply 8):
What bail out? An investment is not a bail-out.

I respectfully disagree. That's starting to dance with some very thinly veiled euphemisms.

Bail out definitely has a particular connotation. As in, if you don't bail the boat, you are going to sink. I don't think anyone here is arguing that Airbus won't be around on January 1st 2007 unless this happens.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 12):

The government is taking a stake in industry as casuality for the mis-management of the A380 program. More bluntly, the political interest of the German state are at odds with the commercial realities of the EADS/Airbus conglomerate, and state control of industry is necessary to insure those political interest are met.

This is more a reflection of the tug of war over Airbus's identity. EU governments have propped Airbus up for the last 30-40 years, only since the introduction of the A320 have they been solvent as a actual enterprise. Now the question becomes should Airbus work in the interest of their shareholders, or the interest of their governments.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 12):


Let's say they do get the entire A320 line, but what about the A320 replacement? If Airbus is still struggling when it comes time for A320 replacement (a possibility that cannot be denied), Airbus may turn to final production outside Europe. That leaves France with the widebodies and Germany with.... nothing.

I would argue that it's not just the specter of the A380 orders going away but the specter of a second line opening in China worries them greatly. Remember that the A380 was supposed to be the flagship of a dominate Airbus. Given Airbus's political nature, Germany was not about to be let out of the most prestigious project. Germany and France split the prestige, ensured problems for the A380, and the UK got to fight over the scraps... All for plane not likely to make it's backers a single cent of profit.


User currently offlineOsiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3192 posts, RR: 25
Reply 20, posted (7 years 10 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 7775 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 7):
Yes - didnt want to mention the A320's looming problem. The 737 is currently out-selling Airbus' single-aisles by a factor of nearly three to one (503 to 186 this year).

Worse that that for the A320 in isolation. Incredibly, the 787 has outsold it this year (110 to 99).

Both the 320 and 737 are nearing the end of their successful lives. We all know it's coming. They are both fairly evenly matched competitors and really it's a toss up between the two of them. I expect orders will ebb and flow between the two camps until they are both retired.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 8):
It makes very little sense to have the A320 manufactured in Toulouse, and the rest of the family (A318, A319 and A321) at Finkenwerder.

 checkmark 

Quoting Mariner (Reply 8):
The "creeping nationalism" is more a reflection of the political views - and profound anti-European-ism - at the Telegraph than political reality at Airbus or in Germany.

Important to note that as someone who isn't in the UK I don't know the politcal leanings of the source. And that is relevant information.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 10):
I would be disinclined to call the A320 - or what has happened at Finkenwerder - "a failure".

His comment was with regards to the 380 and you knew that. Disagree with his calling the 380 a failure, but you know he wasn't referring to the 320. Furthermore I think Nav was even hoping for a better Airbus in the future with that comment.

Quoting BOE773 (Reply 11):
Quoting Commavia (Reply 3):
So finally it comes out: this pillar of the suposedly fantastic pan-European (anti-Anglosaxon) social/commercial model

So is Britain not European ?

Commavia was referring to the fact that the UK is much more about open markets than the rest of Europe. The whole open market, capitalism at all costs thing was started under Margarette Thatcher. The balance of Europe is largely more socialist in terms of economics.

However, please, let's not turn this thread into a discussion of the merits of both systems (and both have benefits LOL)



I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 21, posted (7 years 10 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 7762 times:
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Quoting Commavia (Reply 14):
Britain's economy (and Ireland's)

For what it is worth, Ireland has had a financial bonanza since they joined the EU.

And yes, Britiain can be said to be more "Euro-sceptic" than others - for long historical reasons, some of which are far from desirable.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11439 posts, RR: 61
Reply 22, posted (7 years 10 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 7751 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 21):
Ireland has had a financial bonanza since they joined the EU.

By advocating the exact opposite economic policies of most of their western European E.U. neighbors.


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 23, posted (7 years 10 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 7751 times:
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Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 20):
His comment was with regards to the 380 and you knew that.

No, I did not know that. I read it again, and I still do not know that.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 24, posted (7 years 10 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 7739 times:

I would have no objection to 'nationalisation', in the sense of a government or governments taking a majority shareholding in EADS. I don't myself think that that would produce a successful company, but that's only my opinion.

But what MUST stop is three governments running the company through the back door. At present only 20.5% of EADS shares are directly held by governments.

To put it another way, Chirac and Merkel appear to be calling all the important shots on EADS/Airbus - including, as we found out recently, who runs it, what their nationalities must be, and where the company locates its manufacturing plants.

While 80 cents in every Euro they're risking (losing?) belongs to a private investor.

[Edited 2006-10-03 06:04:53]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
25 Osiris30 : Well you should have been able to infer it then :P No one, not matter how anti-Airbus would claim the 320 was a failure.
26 Mariner : I should "infer"? Wow. Then I guess I should "infer" that the A380 is a failure. Why don't I do that? mariner[Edited 2006-10-03 06:04:35]
27 N328KF : To be fair, Merkel is vehemently hands-off. She is most unlike Chirac (or Schroeder, for that matter.)
28 Mariner : Ireland had those same economic policies in place before they joined the EU - and they were a financial basket case. mariner
29 Osiris30 : You know I had an equally arogant and snotty reply all typed up for you, then I realized, why lower myself to that level. You should have been able t
30 NAV20 : Agree that Chirac is the most powerful (and awkward) figure, N328KF. If it DOES come to nationalisation I'd think that the best solution would be for
31 Mariner : ing frpom what oen read - I am sorry you think that taking meaning from what one reads is "arrogant and snotty". And telling me that I knew something
32 Lufthansa : Mariner he's too young to remember, and definately to have seen Ireland suceed basically because it all of a sudden become a cheap place to do busine
33 Osiris30 : Marnier: Oh well, your loss really. Have a good one.
34 Baroque : We can agree on Airbus Nav, must mark it down. Joking aside, that seems fair enough, especially as they seem to have a number of doors of different s
35 Leskova : The "German government"?? This is the finance secretary speaking out of his a... well... voicing his opinion - it's not even the finance minister, so
36 Mariner : Oh, all right, if you want. Perhaps, but this is true of many manufacturing companies. Who knows where Ford would be if they hadn't come up with the
37 Post contains images Astuteman : What's wrong with discussing subs ?.... If I had anything constructive to add relative to the thread I would. Sorry guys. Maybe if I leave you with t
38 AirbusA6 : The arguments between France and Germany over EADS/Airbus show the truth behind a lot of the pan European rhetoric. Airbus has always been a European
39 VV701 : What total rubbish. Ireland joined what was then the EEC 33 years ago in 1973. Then the world was a very different place to what it is today. No deve
40 USAF336TFS : For all those who believe, wrongly IMHO, that LH fleet decisions are based on what's built in Germany, I'm curious how they think this will effect LH'
41 Warren747sp : Didn't Airbus plan to move the A320 production line to China.? So what would they build in Germany? Maybe parts for Boeing like the Japanese...
42 Post contains links Osiris30 : http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,2191995,00.html Airbus Set to Announce Massive Restructuring
43 Stitch : I imagine completion of the second Hamburg line would have preference over the first Chinese one.
44 Leskova : Especially since the decision about the Chinese line was recently moved to a later date... and the Chinese line was not supposed to be the only line,
45 Jfk777 : If its best for the A320 to be in Hamburg and the A380 to in Toulouse then so be it. Airbus reminds me a bunch of Latin American nations fighting over
46 Mariner : The basic Irish economy followed the British model. Britain imposed the financial structure. Even the unit of money was called the pound. It made Ire
47 Post contains links Osiris30 : http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/st...story/10-03-2006/0004444572&EDATE=
48 Pilot21 : Actually it was called the Punt, but the English speaking world translated that into Irish Pound. You may have more yrs on me, but please don't try a
49 Glom : Oh dear! Keynes just won't die!
50 VV701 : Please stop pontificating about subjects that if your own words are too be believed you know absolutely nothing about. You are talking total rubbish.
51 Texfly101 : It will remain to see how the A380 problems affect the A320's replacement. While still off in the future, 2014 will be all too quickly upon Airbus. B
52 Post contains links and images Mariner : Which was originally translated from the English word "pound" - the currency of Ireland, from when Britain occupied that country. I wasn't aware that
53 PEK18R36L : Given the apparent advantages of consolidating in Hamburg and the difficulties building anything in China presents, Airbus had better be 100% squared
54 Post contains links Lumberton : Update: German politicians warn existing Airbus production must remain in Germany Despite Mr. Streiff's grand visions, I have to question whether the
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