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AF-KL Results In Brazil: August/2006  
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Posted (8 years 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4944 times:

AF-KL load factors in Brazil, August-2006:

AF CDG-GIG daily B747-400: 91.7%
AF CDG-GRU daily B772-200 + 3 weekly A330-300: 89.8%
(AF average: 90.8% (6 points above AF average worldwide))
KL AMS-GRU daily B772-200: 92.4%

In Novemver 2006 AF will introduce additional 3 weekly CDG-GRU flights A330-300 increasing CDG-GRU to 13 weekly flights. AF will also replace the B772 on the route with the B773 further increasing capacity (270 seats againts 310 seats or 15% more capacity). In total, AF will increase capacity to GRU in 28% (change of equipment + additional flights).

Rgs,

18 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently onlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4507 posts, RR: 72
Reply 1, posted (8 years 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4928 times:

Once again a great performance by AF/KL between Europe and Brazil. The AF addition will only be twice weekly, for a total of 5 weekly Southbound daylight flights between CDG and GRU operated with the A332 in addition to the daily overnight B77W on the route. It is very likely that AF will operate twice daily frequencies between CDG and GRU by next year.

High time then for a revision of the Netherlands-Brazil bilateral air agreement, so as to allow KLM to operate additional services between AMS and Brazil as well. I'm pretty sure that an AMS-GIG link would work very well, for sure now that Lufthansa has seemingly lost all interest in serving Rio de Janeiro.


User currently offlinePHKLM From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Dec 2005, 1198 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (8 years 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4917 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 1):

High time then for a revision of the Netherlands-Brazil bilateral air agreement, so as to allow KLM to operate additional services between AMS and Brazil as well. I'm pretty sure that an AMS-GIG link would work very well

Has KL frames readily available for this?


User currently onlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4507 posts, RR: 72
Reply 3, posted (8 years 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4904 times:

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 2):
Has KL frames readily available for this?

KLM are masters at squeezing utilization out of their fleet, so I'm pretty sure that if the airline would really want to start an AMS-GIG flight, they'd find the aircraft to do so. The problem is of course that there are so many other longhaul priorities for both AF and KL, and there is of course also the issue of the bilateral air services agreemtent between Brazil and The Netherlands.

In related news, Air France is to continue operating nonstop CDG-SCL services during the slower northern summer season for the first time next year. This upcoming winter, SCL and EZE will be completely delinked and will be served with dedicated terminator flights from CDG 5 and 7 times weekly respectively. Traditionally, Air France has returned the combined CDG-EZE-SCL flight for the summer, but next year for the first time the airline will continue to operate nonstop flights into SCL: thrice weekly CDG-SCL, thrice weekly CDG-EZE and four weekly CDG-EZE-SCL.


User currently offlineSumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2561 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (8 years 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4881 times:

Very good figures for the AF/KLM group in Brasil.

This is slightly off topic, but it is with Brasilian aviation anyway..

I noticed yesterday that RG has programmed 7 weekly flights to BOG via CCS (no traffic rights though) and a non-stop on Saturdays with a 763. Is this likely to go ahead? I mean, does RG has 767s operating or ready to operate?
It also means that GOL has not got authorization to start MAO-BOG.


User currently offlineNeo From Brazil, joined Jan 2001, 672 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (8 years 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 4727 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 1):
I'm pretty sure that an AMS-GIG link would work very well, for sure now that Lufthansa has seemingly lost all interest in serving Rio de Janeiro.

What's up with LH??? GIG-FRA route would be such a winner... it was at a point RG most profitable route. LH could not have aircraft available for this ... but this is a great market/opportunity they are passing on...

Just so you know BR is commencing 2 weekly flights from CGN-GIG this week and I believe it will go for the entire winter..

JJ is said to start dayly GIG-CDG and if KL manages to do the same.. LH can say go bye to GIG....

Rgs

Neo


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 6, posted (8 years 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4552 times:

Quoting Neo (Reply 5):
What's up with LH??? GIG-FRA route would be such a winner...

LH knows why it is putting all its bets in GRU: it makes more money than GIG. It is not out of reason why ALL airlines invest more and more in GRU. Why do you think AF decided to go for twice daily GRU instead of increasing GIG? Airlines fly where premium traffic is generated, in other words: GRU.

Rgs,


User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4994 posts, RR: 51
Reply 7, posted (8 years 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4489 times:

To all,

1.) Why are these results so outstanding? Nearly all AF/KL/LH/BA long-haul's operate at 90-93% Load factor on a 12 month basis. Anything less than that is considered "sub-par".

2.) The issue is yield per ASM (or ASK).

3.) These statistics are purely confidential. Only a select group within the airline has these stat reading available (unless you operate in the US and subscribe to the DOT T100 report). Therefore, What is the source?


User currently offlineLamedianaranja From Venezuela, joined Nov 2004, 1246 posts, RR: 21
Reply 8, posted (8 years 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 4447 times:

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 7):
What is the source?

Hardi always posts these results, and he always gets them right, don't worry.

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 7):
Anything less than that is considered "sub-par".

Positive yield occurs with a load factor around 78% so this is really outstanding. They do have to thank RG's crisis a bit for this I suspect.

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 7):
ASM (or ASK).

I will ASK, what does it mean?

Are you a LH employee by any chance because you sound kind of put out  Wink?



I wish that all skies were orange and blue!!
User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4994 posts, RR: 51
Reply 9, posted (8 years 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4390 times:

Quoting Lamedianaranja (Reply 8):
Hardi always posts these results, and he always gets them right, don't worry.

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 7):
Anything less than that is considered "sub-par".

Positive yield occurs with a load factor around 78% so this is really outstanding. They do have to thank RG's crisis a bit for this I suspect.

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 7):
ASM (or ASK).

I will ASK, what does it mean?



Are you a LH employee by any chance because you sound kind of put out Wink?

1- How can you validate the information. Unless you have first hand documentation of the load factors, then this is 100% heresay. One can generalize "the flights are always 90-95% full".. but to be so precise and have the exact decimal point of the load factor.. is somewhat suspicious.

This information is highly sensitive and strictly confidential. Only selected groups within the airline have exposure to the data. The exception are operation to the USA that need to report to the DOT their load factors, and displayed to the public on the T100 Form.

2- Positive yield? Yield = the average fare of the passengers on board. Air France can fly CDG-PEK with an average yield of $700 with 90%, and fly CDG-GRU with an average of $450. If the two have the same load factor, then yield tells the difference. Given that nearly all AF longhaul operates at 90%, then how can we differentiate between the stellar, and not so stellar routes  Smile

3- ASK = available seat kilometre. No I dont work for LH.


User currently offlineLamedianaranja From Venezuela, joined Nov 2004, 1246 posts, RR: 21
Reply 10, posted (8 years 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4374 times:

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 9):
Positive yield? Yield = the average fare of the passengers on board.

Yield = profit, output per unit as I understood it but I'm not an economist or anything remotely related.



I wish that all skies were orange and blue!!
User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4994 posts, RR: 51
Reply 11, posted (8 years 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4358 times:

Yield tries the average value of a pax per mile flown. In essence, how much revenue is the airline collecting per mile flown. To balance the equation, CASM = what are the variable costs per mile flown.

User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11442 posts, RR: 58
Reply 12, posted (8 years 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4288 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting Hardiwv (Thread starter):
In Novemver 2006 AF will introduce additional 3 weekly CDG-GRU flights A330-300 increasing CDG-GRU to 13 weekly flights

In fact 12. They run 10 and will add only 2 frequencies.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 1):
It is very likely that AF will operate twice daily frequencies between CDG and GRU by next year.

Not possible HB-IWC, AF is nowadays running cargo services using bilateral frequencies. They are at their limits.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 1):
High time then for a revision of the Netherlands-Brazil bilateral air agreement, so as to allow KLM to operate additional services between AMS and Brazil as well. I'm pretty sure that an AMS-GIG link would work very well, for sure now that Lufthansa has seemingly lost all interest in serving Rio de Janeiro.

I have no doubt KL will be a winner flying AMS-GIG. LH lost the interest when RG begin their 772 daily service GIG-FRA, not to forget they use to run this route with their best planes.

Quoting Neo (Reply 5):
JJ is said to start dayly GIG-CDG and if KL manages to do the same.. LH can say go bye to GIG....

Agree with you, and TAM is really looking for a new international mini-hub at GIG. On Oct 2 they get additional flights (not announced yet), connecting GIG and the south/north:

GIG-POA-GIG - more 2x daily A320
GIG-FLN-POA-FLN-GIG - 1x daily A320
BEL-GIG-FLN-POA-FLN-GIG-BEL - 1 daily A320
CPQ-GIG-CPQ - more 1x daily A320
GIG-CWB-GIG - more 1x daily F100
GIG-SSA-GIG - more 1x daily A320
GIG-REC-GIG - more 1x daily A320

With the new service EZE-GIG, all will allow night connections at GIG and morning flights GIG-POA/FLN/CWB/IGU/CGH/CNF/BSB/VIX/SSA/REC. Seems that TAM is building the necessary connections for their services GIG-MIA and GIG-CDG.

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently onlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4507 posts, RR: 72
Reply 13, posted (8 years 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4282 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 12):
Not possible HB-IWC, AF is nowadays running cargo services using bilateral frequencies. They are at their limits.

Well, a further reinforcement of the southbound daylight flight to daily is firmly planned for next year, and Air France is actively looking at serving one more destination in Brazil, so I presume the airline has found a way to add frequencies as of next year.


User currently offlineNeo From Brazil, joined Jan 2001, 672 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (8 years 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4208 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 6):
LH knows why it is putting all its bets in GRU: it makes more money than GIG. It is not out of reason why ALL airlines invest more and more in GRU. Why do you think AF decided to go for twice daily GRU instead of increasing GIG? Airlines fly where premium traffic is generated, in other words: GRU.

What I'm questioning is if LH knows what is doing abandoning GIG now. Of course the priority is GRU, no one is saying otherwise.

The thing is before RG crisis LH could afford not flying to GIG because they codeshared with RG FRA-GIG flight (RG most profitable route), but now its all left to AF, IB, TP and soon UX and JJ.

FRA-GIG might not have as much Premium traffic as GRU, but is definetly a strong route for any carrier. Just look at AF for example, GIG is one of their most important routes, and I doubt they would ever give it up in favor of adding more flights to GRU.

LH dropped non-stop EZE flights along with the GIG tag-ons from its daily FRA-GRU flight.

LH dropped double daily FRA-GRU flights and started MUC-GRU flights on september, a route previous beeing operated by RG.

For me it is pretty clear LH's next step in Brazil should be FRA-GIG flights.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 6):
Airlines fly where premium traffic is generated, in other words: GRU.

Tell that to TP, I'm sure they would prefer to drop their other routes in Brazil in favor of doubling GRU-LIS flights......

Rgs,

Neo


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11442 posts, RR: 58
Reply 15, posted (8 years 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4123 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 13):
Well, a further reinforcement of the southbound daylight flight to daily is firmly planned for next year, and Air France is actively looking at serving one more destination in Brazil, so I presume the airline has found a way to add frequencies as of next year.

There are rumors about a revision on the bilateral to allow more flights to GRU/GIG and to include specific frequencies to REC (Northeast). I'm waiting ANAC confirmation on this for more than a month! I believe a 14x GRU and 10x GIG could be a good move.

Quoting Neo (Reply 14):
For me it is pretty clear LH's next step in Brazil should be FRA-GIG flights.

There are 7 new ventures closer to GIG with more than EUR 5 billion from Germany. No doubt LH will return in the near future to GIG (or even RG resume GIG-FRA).

Quoting Neo (Reply 14):
Tell that to TP, I'm sure they would prefer to drop their other routes in Brazil in favor of doubling GRU-LIS flights......

Agree 100%.

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 16, posted (8 years 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4011 times:

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 7):
1.) Why are these results so outstanding? Nearly all AF/KL/LH/BA long-haul's operate at 90-93% Load factor on a 12 month basis. Anything less than that is considered "sub-par".

Loads of AF-KL in Brazil are 6% higher than worldwide average. As mentioned, loads of above 80% are outstanding. In the case of Brazil loads have been extraordinary. Loads above 88% mean that the airline has to frequently deal with overbooking, as has been the case of both AF and KL in Brazil. Yields in the market for both AF and KL are also extremely high, but I cannot give the figures.

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 7):
3.) These statistics are purely confidential. Only a select group within the airline has these stat reading available (unless you operate in the US and subscribe to the DOT T100 report). Therefore, What is the source?

They are not, and are in public domain. These statistics are available, and I can guarantee that they are correct.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 15):
There are 7 new ventures closer to GIG with more than EUR 5 billion from Germany. No doubt LH will return in the near future to GIG (or even RG resume GIG-FRA).

I hope that as LH gets new airplanes they will resume GIG nonstop. I am also sure GIG-FRA is in the priority list of RG, it was one of RG best performing routes. However, the situation now is different because RG operations are centred in GRU and there is little left of RG in GIG. I believe TAM CDG-GIG will be a winner and will make it harder for RG and7or LH do restate GIG-FRA operations.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 13):
Well, a further reinforcement of the southbound daylight flight to daily is firmly planned for next year, and Air France is actively looking at serving one more destination in Brazil, so I presume the airline has found a way to add frequencies as of next year.

Correct. There are strong indictaions that AF will start CDG-REC, perhaps CDG-REC-GIG. We can also expect larger plane on daylight operations.

As already mentioned, I do hope KL is giving full consideration for GIG-AMS. I think the route had good potential, but as you mentioned it has to compete with other money making routes. But one thing is sure: KL is looking at GIG and a decision in favour of GIG nonstop would not come as a surprise.

Rgs,


User currently offlinePHKLM From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Dec 2005, 1198 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (8 years 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3941 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 16):
But one thing is sure: KL is looking at GIG and a decision in favour of GIG nonstop would not come as a surprise.

Ok this is pure speculation, but would it make sense to fly AMS-GIG-EZE on KL metal? I know AF just upgraded EZE by disconnecting SCL; but I am just wondering. The EZE flight could prevent KL flying day-light flight to GIG and limiting downtime at an out-station. So leave Amsterdam late in the evening, arrive EZE shortly before noon, depart EZE after noon, arrive GIG early evening and leave for AMS to arrive in the early morning.
Just wondering.


User currently offlineOHLHD From Finland, joined Dec 2004, 3962 posts, RR: 25
Reply 18, posted (8 years 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3937 times:

Very good news, especially since I want to go to GIG in Nov ( non-rev) and every add flight to Brazil helps!!! Big grin

Quoting Neo (Reply 5):
BR is commencing 2 weekly flights from CGN-GIG this week

I guess you meant BRA.  Smile


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