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Airbus A380, Maybe It's Time To Ask For Help.  
User currently offlineWINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2831 posts, RR: 68
Posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 12920 times:

I have been wondering for quiet some time if Airbus would be willing to ask for help from other airplane manufacturers, to help resolve the A380 issues. Maybe it's time for Airbus to swallow it's pride and ask for help.

Embraer ?
Dassault ?
Bombardier ?
Alenia ?
Saab ?
Tupolev ?

What is your view on this matter?

Regards,
Wings


Aviation Is A Passion.
82 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineGlom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2820 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 12795 times:

The A380 has issues?

User currently offlineOsiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3192 posts, RR: 25
Reply 2, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 12784 times:

Quoting WINGS (Thread starter):
What is your view on this matter?

There's only one company on the face of the earth with experience with birds close to that size in the Pax world.. and I'm guessing they won't be too eager to help  Wink



I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5790 posts, RR: 47
Reply 3, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 12761 times:

Quoting WINGS (Thread starter):
Embraer ?
Dassault ?
Bombardier ?
Alenia ?
Saab ?
Tupolev ?

What is your view on this matter?

Uh, you're forgetting someone.



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineLegoguy From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2006, 3313 posts, RR: 40
Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 12759 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 3):
Uh, you're forgetting someone.

LOL, as if Boaing would offer help, although it would be great to see both of the main manufacturers doing well again  Smile



Can you say 'Beer Can' without sounding like a Jamaican saying 'Bacon'?
User currently offlineShenzhen From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 1710 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 12736 times:

Back when Boeing were behind schedule with the 747-4, they did exactly what you are suggesting.

They brought in a couple hundered Lockhead production employess (on contract from Lockhead) to help with the out of sequence work.

Cheers


User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 6, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 12729 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 3):
Uh, you're forgetting someone.

If you're thinking of Boeing, I think Osiris30 hit the nail on the head:

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 2):
I'm guessing they won't be too eager to help

I'm not really sure if getting outside help at the moment really would help - getting them up to speed on the project will probably take about as much time as getting them sorted out themselves... then again... an outside view can often be quite helpful - getting a fresh perspective on things can help.



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 12685 times:

Quoting WINGS (Thread starter):
What is your view on this matter?

I'd avoid relying on half-measures and find the nearest "Eurocrats Anonymous" meeting.  Smile


User currently offlineEbbUK From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 12686 times:

Quoting WINGS (Thread starter):
What is your view on this matter?

You're losing your mind. There isn't another company in the world that has undertaken a project of this size.

Now if you were to ask if they should ask for more government money, then I think you have a topic worthy of discussion.


User currently onlineAreopagus From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1370 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 12684 times:

Well, since the root problem is the failure to update all centers to Catia 5 and get everyone trained to use it, the obvious answer is Dassault.

User currently offlineAirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2826 posts, RR: 42
Reply 10, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 12684 times:

This is a classic mythical man month situation. This is (not) a problem that you can solve simply by throwing more engineers at the problem. It's a problem that is solved by training the engineers you already have to fix the problem that already exists. The classic example is that you can't have 9 women give birth to a single baby in a single month.


Airbus's only hope at this point is to fix the management problems, before it can fix the hardware problems.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31123 posts, RR: 85
Reply 11, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 12606 times:
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Quoting WINGS (Thread starter):
I have been wondering for quiet some time if Airbus would be willing to ask for help from other airplane manufacturers, to help resolve the A380 issues. Maybe it's time for Airbus to swallow it's pride and ask for help...What is your view on this matter?

Without knowing the actual problems, it is difficult for me to make a conclusive statement.

I imagine Airbus needs help in many areas, including whatever specific problems are affecting the A380 directly, as well as the design software, future integration of all A380-related work at Toulouse, completing and starting the second A320 production line at Hamburg, shifting of A320 production between Toulouse and Hamburg, and ramp-up on design, development, and production of the A350 program.

I imagine it's going to be a lucrative time to be a consultant...


User currently offlineMush From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 97 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 12545 times:

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 2):
There's only one company on the face of the earth with experience with birds close to that size in the Pax world.. and I'm guessing they won't be too eager to help

I would be willing to bet that you're wrong. Boeing would fly to France and Germany to help Airbus if asked to. Of course Boeing would bill Airbus for each hour that they spent on the project and of course Airbus may not get the best billable rate from Boeing...

It's all a matter of $$$$ and Euros.


Personally, I don't think Airbus will ask. How would it look if the aviation pride project of Europe needed help from the Americans.

The reason why I say aviation pride is not to start a fight, but because Airbus had PMs from some European Countries present and making speeches at the roll out of the A380. It's not often, frankly it's almost never, that you see a sitting president of the United States present, with a speaking roll, at any COMMERCIAL program. If I recall correctly, Bill Clinton was not present for the B777 roll out, please correct me if I'm wrong.


Mush



Sprung from cages out on highway 9
User currently offlineNorCal From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2459 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 12522 times:

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 8):
You're losing your mind. There isn't another company in the world that has undertaken a project of this size.

That is rather insulting to Boeing and the 747, which was 2x the size of anything built before it (much bigger size jump than the A380 is). Boeing built their a/c in much less time without the help of computers, I'd say that is a pretty amazing accomplishment. They also delivered on time (the only delay being of a month was caused by Pratt). It is also rather insulting to aircraft like the C-5, the AN-124 and AN-225.


User currently offlineFrequentflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 736 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 12501 times:

Quoting Areopagus (Reply 9):
Well, since the root problem is the failure to update all centers to Catia 5 and get everyone trained to use it,

Are you sure this is the real issue?



Take off and live
User currently offlineAirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2826 posts, RR: 42
Reply 15, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 12462 times:

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 8):
You're losing your mind. There isn't another company in the world that has undertaken a project of this size.

Of course there is. Boeing was doing three projects the size of the A380 without any computers at the same time. (747, 737 and SST). The 747 was around 300% larger then the 707, the first airliner with high bipass fans, and the first wide body to boot.


User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6491 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 12445 times:

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 8):
You're losing your mind. There isn't another company in the world that has undertaken a project of this size.

Within the realm of jet-powered aircraft, Boeing, Lockheed, Antonov, and Hughes are examples of companies that did. Within the realm of engineering in general, there are many projects of larger size and scope. Saturn V, any large civil engineering project, etc, even EADS' own affiliate, Arianespace...



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineSJCRRPAX From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 12406 times:

The A380 has a few problems that are being corrected now and is in good hands. Soon the A380 will be just like the A320 only bigger. We all know that the A320 is a nice, quiet, safe, reliable plane and the A380 will be the same.

Personally, I am beginning to wonder why this type of threads keep showing up, even though I usually enjoy watching the "A" team fight the "B" team. How long before someone starts a thread on Boeing needing airbus help for the B787?


User currently offlineOsiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3192 posts, RR: 25
Reply 18, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 12364 times:

Quoting Leskova (Reply 6):
I'm not really sure if getting outside help at the moment really would help - getting them up to speed on the project will probably take about as much time as getting them sorted out themselves... then again... an outside view can often be quite helpful - getting a fresh perspective on things can help.

Overall I give outside help a 30/70 chance of help vs. hinder. I don't think Airbus's problems are solely technical, so outside help would be of limited usefullness.

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 10):
This is a classic mythical man month situation. This is (not) a problem that you can solve simply by throwing more engineers at the problem. It's a problem that is solved by training the engineers you already have to fix the problem that already exists. The classic example is that you can't have 9 women give birth to a single baby in a single month.


Airbus's only hope at this point is to fix the management problems, before it can fix the hardware problems.

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 

Quoting Mush (Reply 12):
I would be willing to bet that you're wrong. Boeing would fly to France and Germany to help Airbus if asked to. Of course Boeing would bill Airbus for each hour that they spent on the project and of course Airbus may not get the best billable rate from Boeing...

The reason I don't see Boeing going near it isn't pride/or $$, it's Y3. Boeing doesn't need their people exposed to Airbus trade secrets. That is a pandora's box that's not worth going near even for $B.

Quoting NorCal (Reply 13):
That is rather insulting to Boeing and the 747, which was 2x the size of anything built before it (much bigger size jump than the A380 is).

 checkmark 

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 15):
Of course there is. Boeing was doing three projects the size of the A380 without any computers at the same time. (747, 737 and SST). The 747 was around 300% larger then the 707, the first airliner with high bipass fans, and the first wide body to boot.

And don't forget the 747 made money, the 737 is the best selling plane of all time and well their SST was an abismal waste of time LOL



I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
User currently offlineEbbUK From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 12321 times:

Quoting NorCal (Reply 13):
That is rather insulting to Boeing and the 747, which was 2x the size of anything built before it (much bigger size jump than the A380 is). Boeing built their a/c in much less time without the help of computers, I'd say that is a pretty amazing accomplishment. They also delivered on time (the only delay being of a month was caused by Pratt). It is also rather insulting to aircraft like the C-5, the AN-124 and AN-225.



Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 15):


[quote=N328KF,reply=16]

with respect none have had to incorporate, the latest most advanced technologies from IFE to electronic flight systems, into as innovative a structure as the 380 is.

That is not to take away from their respective achievements.


User currently offlineTeamAmerica From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 1761 posts, RR: 23
Reply 20, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 12321 times:

Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 17):
The A380 has a few problems that are being corrected now and is in good hands.

Earth to SJCRRPAX: are you even slightly aware of what's going on with the A380? That they now intend to deliver only 1 by the end of 2007?  wideeyed 



Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
User currently offlineShenzhen From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 1710 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 12299 times:

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 19):
with respect none have had to incorporate, the latest most advanced technologies from IFE to electronic flight systems, into as innovative a structure as the 380 is.

Yes, running 115 VAC and/or 28VDC to a vendors box is a huge accomplishment.

Cheers


User currently offlineMush From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 97 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 12277 times:

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 18):
The reason I don't see Boeing going near it isn't pride/or $$, it's Y3. Boeing doesn't need their people exposed to Airbus trade secrets. That is a pandora's box that's not worth going near even for $B.

I didn't think of that...

Quoting Mush (Reply 12):
I would be willing to bet that you're wrong.

Glad you didn't take my bet...by the way, it's off the table now  Wink

Thanks,
Mush



Sprung from cages out on highway 9
User currently offlineTeamAmerica From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 1761 posts, RR: 23
Reply 23, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 12259 times:

Quoting Shenzhen (Reply 21):
running 115 VAC and/or 28VDC to a vendors box is a huge accomplishment.

WOULD BE a huge accomplishment. They haven't succeeded.  Smile



Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
User currently offlineOsiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3192 posts, RR: 25
Reply 24, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 12217 times:

Quoting Mush (Reply 22):
Glad you didn't take my bet...by the way, it's off the table now

As much as I love winning a bet, I don't take a sucker bet (either way  Wink ).. it's this silly code of ethics I have LOL.

Quoting Mush (Reply 22):
Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 18):
The reason I don't see Boeing going near it isn't pride/or $$, it's Y3. Boeing doesn't need their people exposed to Airbus trade secrets. That is a pandora's box that's not worth going near even for $B.

I didn't think of that...

I'm sure most wouldn't have, which is why I brought it up. I'm painfully aware of trade secret/patent issues given I've been in high-tech for years.



I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
25 SJCRRPAX : I am pretty sure I have seen pictures of four of A380's flying in formation, so I'd say they have solved 99% of the technical issues. So what issue c
26 Osiris30 : Wrong. They aren't final frames and they aren't certified for commercial flight OR serial production. They could have duct tape holding them together
27 Ken777 : Airbus is probably using consultants right now for suggestions on restructuring the company and on the software side, but I doubt if they will bring i
28 Post contains images NorCal : Well they incorporated the latest and greatest from 1960s....kind of hard to incorporate IFE when pong wasn't even on the horizon, or the PC, and you
29 Post contains images Solnabo : Airbus website: ""Airbus will this year deliver around 430 aircrafts, the highest ever, with a plan to deliver even more next year" I belive it when I
30 Post contains images Mush : So with the A380 in late 2007 will it be 431 aircraft for next year? Just kidding...
31 Post contains images Solnabo : @ Mush You´re soooo right, maybe 430 ½ a/c.. Micke   *about to throw this effing PC out the window*[Edited 2006-10-03 21:02:52]
32 TeamAmerica : So how do you explain the failure to deliver any of these aircraft? None of these are relevant. The first wheel probably wasn't quite round; so what?
33 HB88 : Quite apart from the issues you point out above - which are absolutely correct - IMO the delays in properly engaging a completely new partner into th
34 Post contains images Osiris30 : I pointed that out as well Usually when I've been behind schedule on project the best way to speed it up is to cut out outside parties, not add more.
35 Jacobin777 : That actually makes it THREE years late before the carries will be getting the planes
36 EbbUK : Don't know what you are talking about. Illuminate, share your knowledge. I agree, yet some people on this site would never hear a bad word said about
37 Post contains images Boeing4ever : I heard Orville dropped his iPod at Kitty Hawk. Jeez relax...they do make other planes than A380 and have some sort of backlog to fill, just like Boe
38 Post contains images Flysherwood : Yes there is!!! BOEING.
39 DAYflyer : Under which rock have you been hiding?
40 EbbUK : wrong
41 FlyDreamliner : Really? 747 wasn't a bigger endeavor, or the 787 - the first primarily composite airliner and largest composite aircraft in the history of aviation?
42 Post contains links YULWinterSkies : And to me, it looks like "the aviation pride project of Europe" is getting some "help from the Americans": 1. where is Engine Alliance from? That's a
43 GQfluffy : Which aircraft company did Boeing turn to for help when they were having issues keeping up with demand of the 777 and the 737 NG in the mid 90's? IIR
44 N328KF : Toyota has developed piston aircraft engines...I guess technically that makes them an aircraft company. That's who they turned to.
45 EbbUK : What is it with you guys? Why is it so hard for you to accept that the 380 is a BIGGER civil aviation project than anything the Americans or anyone e
46 GQfluffy : But how much BIGGER then the 747? Bigger then going from the largest 707 or DC-8?
47 Katekebo : The biggest engineering project in the history (cost and resource-wise) has been the project Apollo. At it's peak, it had 200,000 engineers working s
48 Osiris30 : No.. the plane is bigger not the project. You are confusing the effort required with the size of the product. By your logic the effort to develop a c
49 N328KF : I'm glad you made that comparison -- I bet Intel has more engineering talent working on Itanium than Airbus has had on the A380. The capital costs of
50 Post contains images NorCal : Still not getting it
51 EbbUK : Yes you are all right I am talking out of my booty hole[Edited 2006-10-04 00:08:43]
52 Osiris30 : Itanium has a *potentially* much larger customer base. It also have revenue and has been shipping for a while. Unlike the 380. And I despise Intel. H
53 Osiris30 : No it wasn't. Not at all. That was the polar opposite of what you were saying. Maybe it was what you were trying to say, but then you've been arguing
54 Post contains images Leskova : CONGRATULATIONS!!! That is the best comment I've read since this new A380-delay-news was revealed!! THANK YOU!!! Regards, Frank
55 Texfly101 : Yep, just check their Jobs@Boeing list. Add in the fact that they're paying bounties for employees who bring in new hires...we definitely have our pl
56 Post contains images VANGUARD737 : True, but we have mainly German WWII advancements and Werner von Braun to thank for getting us up there Apollo should have been called V-2 XP
57 Flysherwood : Glad you figured that out!!!
58 FlyDreamliner : The A380 is a bigger plane I guess..... in terms of actual advancement and how large of a project it is, A380 is in my opinion, behing 747, 707 and D
59 Osiris30 : Good god folks.. why not just chalk it up to sucessful collaboration. Werner von Braun was a genius. A lot of the folks who worked with him were equa
60 Bringiton : why does their nationality matter anyway , they worked as a cohesive team to develop something truely remarcable , the reason they were part of the te
61 N328KF : I dunno about that. For starters, you can see a direct development lineage going back from the A1 (predecessor to the V1) all to and including Saturn
62 Prebennorholm : But in spite of that the next major enterprise by NASA - the Space Shuttle - went five years late, and has to this day never met its ambitious perfor
63 Glideslope : LOL. Reminds me of that 70's song "Dream Weaver."
64 Woosie : But notice Boeing didn't ask MDC or Airbus. Not gonna happen. No way, no how. BTW, it's Lockheed (you've inadvertently mis-spelled it three times now
65 Glideslope : Yes. Antonov. Much more experience than Tupolev, IMO.
66 Post contains images Woosie : Micke - Keep on cheering for Airbus - you're a great fan of their products, which are VERY good. And, yes, I work in Boeing Commercial, so I'm praisi
67 Post contains images Stitch : In terms of dollars, probably. And in terms of physical dimensions, I am sure it is. But while a far smaller plane, physically, I believe Concorde mi
68 MD-90 : Does Airbus use CATIA? Dassault might have some engineers to spare, if they needed them (which I doubt).
69 N328KF : Not only does Airbus use CATIA (v4 and v5, as has been mentioned in several threads), but EADS owns shares in both Airbus and Dassault.
70 Post contains links Ha763 : Actually, Boeing did ask McDonnell Douglas for engineering help. On the 747-500/600 they were supposed to assist with the design and analysis. http:/
71 AAden : lol pride plays a role
72 Thebry : What about NASA? All kidding aside, they did clean up the Space Shuttle issues nicely. It's the most complex piece of machinery every created, and so
73 EbbUK : I am good huh? Thank you. Tell your other friends it is a bigger civilian project than any other undertaken in the world. Not sure NASA people could
74 DeltaDC9 : That is simply not true. One brilliant scientist yes, responsible for the entire Mercury/Gemeni/Appollo programs success? You go way too far. You cou
75 Thorny : There is Lockheed, which still has much C-5 experience. A380 isn't that much larger.
76 N328KF : The An-124 isn't revolutionary; It is only marginally more capable than the C-5 Galaxy, which preceeded it. The 777, while a significant advance (leg
77 Post contains images Thorny : I would list Project Apollo, the Space Shuttle, the Boeing 747, the Lockheed C-5, the Concorde SST, the International Space Station, and the Atlas IC
78 Osiris30 : Dollars don't make a project big my friend. They make a project expensive. Once again the size of a product doesn't matter. But obviously even though
79 Thorny : Shuttle was a 2 1/2 years late. At the time of formal go-ahead in 1972, first flight was scheduled for November, 1978. First flight actually took pla
80 D L X : Who says the help would have to take on the whole project? My suggestion is Fokker.
81 Lehpron : Maybe for that specific project, but we can trace 787 roots to way back then. 787 came from a derated version of Sonic Cruiser that everyone liked be
82 Post contains images Osiris30 : That was the extent of what I meant. As long as we are playing 6 degrees of separation, you can make a case that any project they've ever worked on h
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