Findigenous From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (3 years 2 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 11766 times:
Just on the evening news here in Finland... Finnish national carrier Finnair who ordered nine A350's a while back is now reconsidering the whole order in light of recent delays of the A380 and subsequently the A350. On another front, Patria who makes horizontal tailplane parts for the A380 has slowed its production to minimum following Airbus' announcement of the new delay..
ClassicLover From Ireland, joined Mar 2004, 3810 posts, RR: 22 Reply 2, posted (3 years 2 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 11770 times:
Quoting Findigenous (Thread starter): Just on the evening news here in Finland... Finnish national carrier Finnair who ordered nine A350's a while back is now reconsidering the whole order in light of recent delays of the A380 and subsequently the A350.
Finnair would be lax if they didn't reconsider, to be quite honest. They have a need for replacement aircraft in 2012 - as the MD11s will need to start going around then.
Where is the 787 at right now? Are there delivery positions prior to 2012 available?
I choose to fly oneworld, as a member of Qantas Frequent Flyer.
Stitch From United States, joined Jul 2005, 16111 posts, RR: 64 Reply 4, posted (3 years 2 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 11781 times:
Well they "didn't care" provided the A350XWB was sold to them at the A350 rate. I find that near impossible for a variety of reasons, so perhaps Finnair has decided to explore other options (A330, A340, and 787).
Asturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 1246 posts, RR: 9 Reply 6, posted (3 years 2 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 11703 times:
Airbus is in a very bad situation and there is no good way out. I am sorry to say. They will hurt. Perhaps for a long time.
Airbus will manage and rise stronger than before, but the next three years will hurt. They won't be back on their feet until at the end of the decade, I fear.
Ikramerica From United States, joined May 2005, 18471 posts, RR: 60 Reply 7, posted (3 years 2 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 11704 times:
Quoting LTU932 (Reply 3): But maybe they could buy A330s, even if only a few to send more MD-11s into their Asia network for expansion.
Might they be able to lease more MD11 and 343s until 787-9s are available? I guess they need the range of the 787 over the A333. I just thought the A330 fit better into their fleet (I thought they flew both 340 and 330). The 789 is a pretty good MD11 replacement, is it not?
They probably can't wait until 2014 for the 358X. Since the 359X is the baseline aircraft, it would EIS first, and that's looking like 2013 at the earliest now...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
Findigenous From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 8, posted (3 years 2 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 11674 times:
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1): After all the "finnair doesn't care" talk, they actually do care. What would they buy instead? More A330s?
Actually, Finnair recently bought three older A343's to help with the increasing demand in the Asian sector. A350 was their plan to get rid of the MD-11's which are the only other widebody they currently have, and they're getting old really fast (Finnair was launch customer for the MD-11). Finnair has no A330's. I do know they're looking for other planes should the A350 never see birth, but I don't know which ones.
Lumberton From United States, joined Jul 2005, 4128 posts, RR: 25 Reply 9, posted (3 years 2 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 11674 times:
I had asked on one of the running A350 threads which customer would be first to reconsider their order in light of the impact (admittedly possible at this point, not confirmed) of the A380 troubles on the A350 EIS. Personally, I thought U.S. Airways or QR would cave. Never thought for a moment it would be Finnair "reviewing its options"!
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
ClassicLover From Ireland, joined Mar 2004, 3810 posts, RR: 22 Reply 10, posted (3 years 2 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 11617 times:
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 7): Might they be able to lease more MD11 and 343s until 787-9s are available?
It's almost impossible to find pax MD11s now - apparently FedEx and other carriers snap them up when they become available. Finnair have already had second hand MD11s come into the fleet. They couldn't find more, hence the 343s.
The 757s and 321s are the next biggest aircraft, used in Europe.
I choose to fly oneworld, as a member of Qantas Frequent Flyer.
LTU932 From Mexico, joined Jan 2006, 12305 posts, RR: 58 Reply 11, posted (3 years 2 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 11567 times:
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 7): Might they be able to lease more MD11 and 343s until 787-9s are available?
More A343s: they got I believe 2 or 3 on order and leasing more could be likely. Remember that AC will get rid of them, so there's a candidate for an A343 source, unless they do order more, which I still doubt will happen.
More MD-11s: Highly unlikely. After having acquired some MD-11s from RG, which were in a terrible state and still had major teething problems after EIS, AY will be very careful when they get an MD-11 offered. Besides, most MD-11 PAX are slated for eventual freighter conversions and the other major MD-11 PAX operator, KL, isn't getting rid of them anytime soon. RG still has at least a few MD-11s that are not slated for conversion at all, but after what happened, we could say AY ain't gonna acquire any RG aircraft again.
[Edited 2006-10-05 21:55:05]
Zu fettigem Käse und kalorienreicher Kunstmarmelade, nehme ich einen Doppelkorn.
Kaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 8629 posts, RR: 35 Reply 12, posted (3 years 2 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 11524 times:
Quoting Findigenous (Reply 8): Actually, Finnair recently bought three older A343's to help with the increasing demand in the Asian sector.
I thought it was one old A340 and three new-build models. This would be a huge blow for Airbus, because even though Finnair is a relatively small airline, it's hugely respected. And it only takes one to start the ball rolling. However, the killer blow would be SIA cancelling its A350 order; that would be a huge psychological blow, particularly if it became a launch customer for the 787-10 at the same time.
So, what are the options? 777s perhaps? Possibly too big, BUT as an interim solution, to bridge the gap between the MD11 and 787-9/10. (Just as a matter of interest, how does the cabin width of the MD11 compare to that of the 787?)
"What are we going to do tonight, Brain?" "Same thing we do every night, Pinky. Try to take over the world".
ClassicLover From Ireland, joined Mar 2004, 3810 posts, RR: 22 Reply 13, posted (3 years 2 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 11478 times:
Well having a look, the 787-9 is available from 2011 (considering SQ was the last big order for the 787 in June). It's 263 in 3 class, but AY uses 2 class, so how many seats would that be?
MD11 is about 296 seats with AY at the moment... so the 789 would be good I should think.
I choose to fly oneworld, as a member of Qantas Frequent Flyer.
Commavia From United States, joined Apr 2005, 6803 posts, RR: 59 Reply 15, posted (3 years 2 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 11436 times:
Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 2): Finnair would be lax if they didn't reconsider, to be quite honest.
Agreed. Even if they have no intention of actually ditching the order, Finnair should definitely be making some private and not-so-private overtures to Boeing and public statements about their dissatisfaction and disappointment, if for no other reason than to get more compensation out of Airbus.
Stitch From United States, joined Jul 2005, 16111 posts, RR: 64 Reply 16, posted (3 years 2 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 11395 times:
Quoting Kaitak (Reply 12): So, what are the options? 777s perhaps?
That is what I was wondering. Should be close to an MD-11's capacity with better economics. If Finnair was willing to buy them, Boeing might cut them a solid deal.
ClassicLover From Ireland, joined Mar 2004, 3810 posts, RR: 22 Reply 17, posted (3 years 2 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 11359 times:
Quoting Findigenous (Reply 14): You could be right about that, my understanding was they are all old and that there would be three 343's total...
Three brand new A340-300E from 2007. These were for interim capacity until the A350 was available. They've leased one from VS, and there may be another one coming on lease.
AY needed capacity fast as they have the best Asian network out of Europe of any of the European airlines.
I choose to fly oneworld, as a member of Qantas Frequent Flyer.
Dougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 18, posted (3 years 2 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 11322 times:
Quoting Findigenous (Reply 8): Actually, Finnair recently bought three older A343's to help with the increasing demand in the Asian sector. A350 was their plan to get rid of the MD-11's which are the only other widebody they currently have, and they're getting old really fast (Finnair was launch customer for the MD-11).
Sure were...I spent a lot of late nights working on the first one....couldn't have been 447, that was the prototype that went to Fedex...maybe 448 or 449. I, of all possible people in the world, can tell you why it had a hole in the fuselage over the left rear passenger door.
Findigenous From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 19, posted (3 years 2 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 11288 times:
Quoting Stitch (Reply 16): That is what I was wondering. Should be close to an MD-11's capacity with better economics. If Finnair was willing to buy them, Boeing might cut them a solid deal.
I have hard time believing they would go with Boeing... but we'll have to wait and see. It has been a long-standing strategy at Finnair to have an all Airbus fleet to simplify training and cut its associated costs. Only exception so far were the new Embraer 170's because Airbus could not beat it with its A318.
ClassicLover From Ireland, joined Mar 2004, 3810 posts, RR: 22 Reply 20, posted (3 years 2 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 11226 times:
Quoting Dougloid (Reply 18): I, of all possible people in the world, can tell you why it had a hole in the fuselage over the left rear passenger door.
... and I'd be more than interested in hearing about it!
Quoting Findigenous (Reply 19): I have hard time believing they would go with Boeing...
Why? ... as you said, the strategy was Airbus to simplify costs, but when the E170 beat an Airbus costs, they went with another company. I don't think switching to the 787 would be such a stretch at all.
In addition to that, oneworld partner Qantas has ordered the 787. The alliance does what it can to simplify costs, such as bulk parts buying etc, so it may make more sense for AY to go Boeing here.
I choose to fly oneworld, as a member of Qantas Frequent Flyer.
LTU932 From Mexico, joined Jan 2006, 12305 posts, RR: 58 Reply 21, posted (3 years 2 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 11228 times:
Quoting Dougloid (Reply 18): Sure were...I spent a lot of late nights working on the first one....couldn't have been 447, that was the prototype that went to Fedex...maybe 448 or 449.
Aerokiwi From New Zealand, joined Jul 2000, 1609 posts, RR: 18 Reply 22, posted (3 years 2 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 10872 times:
I think this opens the door for Boeing with the 777 more than the 787. The 772 is still the leader in its class and will be until the A350XWB and 787-10 are introduced, which look to be about 7 years away at the earliest.
So, with the twilight of the 772 produciton run approaching, I can see Boeing being keen to offer some pretty good prices on those birds and Finnair possibly happy to take them as an interim to try out the Boeing birds. That way Boeing has a chance to impress for a subsequent 787 order, while Finnair gets a good deal and a very solid interim product.
ClassicLover From Ireland, joined Mar 2004, 3810 posts, RR: 22 Reply 23, posted (3 years 2 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 10851 times:
Quoting Aerokiwi (Reply 22): I think this opens the door for Boeing with the 777 more than the 787. The 772 is still the leader in its class and will be until the A350XWB and 787-10 are introduced, which look to be about 7 years away at the earliest.
That's something I hadn't thought of... however, if AY went down the 777 road, I believe they'd keep them 20 years and skip the whole 787-A350 area until 2030 or so...
I choose to fly oneworld, as a member of Qantas Frequent Flyer.
NYC777 From United States, joined Jun 2004, 4303 posts, RR: 46 Reply 25, posted (3 years 2 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 10451 times:
I think the 787-10 would be an excellent fit. But it looks that the news of the last 3 days is going to give Boeing some more 787 orders and that they would have to open a 2 nd line.
Now I know this idea has been dropped, mostly injest but in light of Airbus' troubles couldn't Boeing and Airbus collaborate on joint production of the 787 and Airbus could have a partial share of the profits? It would give them much needed cash as well as much needed know how in CFRP production methods for aircraft.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
26 Lumberton: IMO any additional 787 European participation would go to eastern Europe. Alenia, in Western Europe, already has a substantial share. And...simply pu
27 Dougloid: Might well be. I thought it was one of the earlier ones but Olga seems correct...my red crayon marks are all over that baby LOL. We used a lot of che
28 WSOY: In today's paper (I receive the early edition here on Norfolk Island) Finnair's Henrik Arle says: "we're expecting a delay of one year with deliverie
29 Findigenous: In an interview by Financial Times, Airbus' Thomas Enders said that the entire A350 project may be in jeopardy, and that the announcement to start A3
30 RayChuang: I wonder how many A340-300's are available on the second-hand market. I wouldn't be surprised that Finnair does grab as many good-condition A343's as
31 WSOY: Consider the use of the word "may" defore you post something as a fact, please. As things now stand, Finnair will receive its A350s starting from 201
32 Zvezda: I'm sure LH would let some go at very low prices on the condition that they are leased back to LH until replacements arrive.
33 Windshear: Well considdering Ender's statement yesterday, this seems like a "wise" decision... But isn't it a given one?? I mean if the A350 program could get ca
34 Findigenous: BTW, the evening news isn't actually the only source of information for me This morning, Helsingin Sanomat, which is Finland's biggest and most respe
35 Andaman: I guess AY has plenty of choices, it is practically dept free company and not "married" to Airbus, it already chose Embraer instead of A318. More A34
36 Astuteman: They can make a Mercedes for the price of a Lada ? Regards
37 Zvezda: It's one thing to promise a Mercedes for the price of a Lada. It's another thing entirely to deliver.
38 Astuteman: I know. Last time I asked I got a Lada. Regards
39 PVG: Or, they could lease the Hamburg A380 plant for a few years since it's never going to be used!
40 Findigenous: That's exactly what I meant, the question was more or less rhetorical... Even if, as an Airbus fan (the aircraft, not the company), these are difficu
41 LY777: Everybody reconsiders their Airbus(A350 or A350) orders, but finally noone finally cancels them.So, I guess Finnair won't cancel their A350 order
42 Astuteman: I knew that, Findigenous, but sometimes the cookie jar is just too hard to resist, if you know what I mean. My apologies. Regards
43 Tancrede: Sorry Sir, but where did you get this news? There was not such talk in this morning Helsingin Sanomat. They are worried, of course like everybody, bu
45 WSOY: Note: if a newspaper article has a featured writer, you should mention him or her in the reference. This article was prepared by Jyri Raivio, who's H
47 Tancrede: I was thinking exactly like you. In this article, as much as in the evening news of yesterday - YLE 1 news of 20h30 local time - there was never any
48 LordHowe: ... and so was the evening news! Couldn't agree with you both more. Sometimes I hope that these jounalists would become members here in a.net. Then t
49 Keesje: Oneworld carrier Finnair is unconcerned about the uncertainty surrounding the Airbus A350 programme, saying that its long-haul bridging programme has
51 Zvezda: As an Airbus fan, I blame no one but Airbus management (for hubris) and the politicians who imposed the convoluted management structure. Circular rea
52 Findigenous: So you suggest they should make news based on what they can see on an internet forum? Hey, I just reported what I saw on the news last night, that's
53 Zvezda: I don't think that's what LordHowe meant. I think he meant that reading A.net would give journalists a better understanding of the industry and that,
54 TeamAmerica: I think this is the english version: http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Air...irs+investment+plans/1135222120259
55 BeechNut: I know Air Canada will begin disposing of its fleet very soon, in fact possibly starting this winter. As soon as all the 777s are delivered to AC, al
56 LordHowe: Thanks Zvezda! That's excactly what I meant! Best regards, LordHowe
57 Dougloid: Let's just clear up something here...what the hell is a 'knock on effect'? Is that like getting knocked up or a knock off? It doesn't seem to be a ve
58 Zvezda: Knock on is british equivalent to the american term knock off. Both derive from automotive wheels that were attached with a single large nut and affi
59 Yyz717: The A350XWB delay is a particular problem for Finnair for since the M11 is already "old" as a front-line aircraft and will be more so by the time the
60 Jfk777: Finair should dump Airbus, With MD-11 Fiinnair has been dealing with Boeing for spares and service. I would think Boeing would want to keep a ONEWORLD
61 LordHowe: Excuse me guys, but how do you suppose that Boeing would manage all their orders if all these Airbus customers would now cancel Airbus orders and tak
62 Lumberton: Are you referring to the A350/787? If Airbus customers defected to Boeing, they would be alloted production slots like any other customer. Of course,
63 BoomBoom: You are a veritable cornucopia of knowledge!
64 Persotvik: The MD11 has plenty of life for many years to come. The cabin is modern and comfortable, the aircraft have excellent cargocapacity which is very impo
65 LTU932: Nevertheless, since RG has the only few MD-11 PAX aircraft that are not slated for conversion, and given that KL is hanging on to their own MD-11s, t
66 Persotvik: Excactly OH-LGG was in terrible condition and there are no more MD11 pax available. TG's went to UPS. There are some DL's around but they are destine
67 LTU932: From what I heard, WO will convert at least one aircraft to a freighter for their cargo service as well. So WO might soon stop flying MD-11 PAX thems
68 Macnamara532: I think no matter what Boeing produces or says, the anti American attitude in Europe always puts her at a disadvantage.
69 Persotvik: WO operates 8 MD11 ER pax: http://www.worldairways.com/passenger/fleet.html
70 LTU932: As I said, they might. I read that in a thread regarding WO's MD-11s, but I can't find it here. In any case, WO isn't an option also because they oper
71 Spartanmjf: Did OH-LGG come from RG directly? I thought it few with Varig....
72 Dougloid: Knockoff in the states means a cheap unlicensed imitation as in "The suit? It's an Armani knockoff-seventy five bucks on the lower East side". Some o
73 LTU932: The aircraft seems to be leased by AY after RG returned it to the lessor. OH-LGG was originally delivered to GA as PK-GIK and later went to RG as PP-
74 Ken777: The issue coming up is the impact of any 350 delay on Boeing's decision regarding a second production line for the 787. Boeing seems to keep pushing
75 WSOY: The registered owner of OH-LGG is: MDFC-Lakewood Company Building 7-244, Third Floor 500 Naches SW, Renton WA 98055, U.S.A (The above seems to transl
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