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United Opposed JetBlue At ORD  
User currently offlineUtapao From Thailand, joined Jul 2005, 645 posts, RR: 9
Posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4602 times:

Reuters Article

Quote:
United argues that JetBlue's request, which was filed with the Federal Aviation Administration last week, doesn't follow proper procedures and should be denied, according to a filing on Wednesday with the FAA.

"JetBlue must operate in accordance with the regulatory rules of the road, just as all other carriers must do. Because its current request ignores those rules, it must be denied," United says in the filing.



Sawasdee khrab!
26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6484 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4608 times:

This is a shocker; block B6 on a technicality. Sounds like AA vs. WN at LUV.


When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineAtrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5692 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4611 times:

and what rules would this be that B6 is not following according to United?

Alex



Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
User currently onlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4051 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4576 times:

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 2):
and what rules would this be that B6 is not following according to United?

Oh! Mr Tilton and UA don't want any more competition at ORD since he won't get as big a bonus in overly bloated stock options!  sarcastic   gnasher 



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineMymiles2go From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 207 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4562 times:

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 2):
and what rules would this be that B6 is not following according to United?

Alex

Seems like that's probably in thier filing - which I'm sure is public and could be looked up.

In the meantime, I'm not sure why anyone is surprised. This is business - not "let's all play nicely in the sandbox and share the tonka trucks".


User currently offlineScaledesigns From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4484 times:

The problem UA has is that the slots JETBLUE will be getting are part of the
slots UA/AA gave up to make things less congested at ORD.Now the FAA is giving them to another airline to allow competition?
I have no problem with Jetblue coming to ORD,but I also understand why UA and AA might be a little upset if they get the ex AA/UA slots.



F1 Tommy
User currently offlineJetBlueAUS From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1145 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4446 times:

Quoting Mymiles2go (Reply 4):
Seems like that's probably in thier filing - which I'm sure is public and could be looked up.

In the meantime, I'm not sure why anyone is surprised. This is business - not "let's all play nicely in the sandbox and share the tonka trucks".

Well, so much for free market competition?   

I understand why UA doesn't want another carrier at ORD, but at the same time, every business is trying to make money. Chicago is a vital market and it is a money maker for many airlines. JetBlue wants to take this oppurtunity to enter Chicago. I'm not at all surprised that UA filed these complaints though. Oh well - the best will thrive.

[Edited 2006-10-06 02:22:31]


Not all of us can be heroes, some of us can only stand on the sidewalk and clap as they go by.
User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4425 times:

The Reuter's article is very lacking in details. We need more information to make our decision as to who has the better case.

Here's the solution: make ORD totally slot controlled. X number of take-offs and landings per day. period. Until massive runway and terminal improvements are made, capacity should match reality. Congressmen who fret about losing their district's RJ flights to ORD can make do with whatever is available. And no "grandfathering in" RJ routes like LGA - airlines get a certain amount each day, whether they use a 50-seat RJ or an A380.

No "voluntary" reductions - an outside, neutral force needs to make sure if a slot becomes available, everyone has an equal opportunity, be it an RJ, B6, or an A380 - so no one can claim "foul!!"

I still think if B6 was smart, they'd fly into Gary (GYY). Since virtually all of B6's traffic will be O&D, free parking would go over well, in addition to the fact that ORD congestion would be nonexistent.

If they're determined to do ORD and ORD only, I wish them luck. AA and UA will do everything they can to protect their turf!!



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineMymiles2go From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 207 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4407 times:

Quoting JetBlueAUS (Reply 6):
I understand why UA doesn't want another carrier at ORD, but at the same time, every business is trying to make money. Chicago is a vital market and it is a money maker for many airlines. JetBlue wants to take this oppurtunity to enter Chicago. I'm not at all surprised that UA filed these complaints though. Oh well - the best will thrive.

Why don't they fly to MDW then?

I guess it comes down to your own statement about carriers trying to make money - that's all United is doing. When United gave up slots along with AA, they did so to free up congestion - not to allow JetBlue to wander on in and start making money. JetBlue would do the exact same thing if they were in the same position.


User currently offlineDL Widget Head From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 2092 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4407 times:

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 7):
The Reuter's article is very lacking in details. We need more information to make our decision as to who has the better case.

Agreed. Anyone know what rules UA claims B6 is circumventing?


User currently offlineB6DC10 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4385 times:

It's funny...if you read the filing, United doesn't have an opposition to B6 flying out of ORD...that is, as long as they pay for the slots from either UA or AA...I don't think anyone should be shocked by UA's opposition, but I doubt it will hold up.

User currently offlineJetBlueAUS From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1145 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4362 times:

Quoting Mymiles2go (Reply 8):
Why don't they fly to MDW then?

I guess it comes down to your own statement about carriers trying to make money - that's all United is doing. When United gave up slots along with AA, they did so to free up congestion - not to allow JetBlue to wander on in and start making money. JetBlue would do the exact same thing if they were in the same position.

B6 wants to expand in Chicago, and basically they stay away from WN like the black death. Which is definitely understandable... one reason why they aren't flying into MDW. UA is also trying to make money. However, so is B6. Besides UA doesn't even fly ORD-JFK. Its not going to affect them that much.



Not all of us can be heroes, some of us can only stand on the sidewalk and clap as they go by.
User currently offlineSHUPirate1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3670 posts, RR: 17
Reply 12, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4328 times:

Quoting DL Widget Head (Reply 9):
Agreed. Anyone know what rules UA claims B6 is circumventing?

If I recall correctly from the filing, it's something about the current version of the "slots" expiring in late-October, whereas jetBlue doesn't want to start their services until November. Basically, United is saying that jetBlue should wait until after that late-October date (I forget the exact date) and apply again.



Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12103 posts, RR: 49
Reply 13, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4295 times:
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Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 7):
I still think if B6 was smart, they'd fly into Gary (GYY). Since virtually all of B6's traffic will be O&D, free parking would go over well, in addition to the fact that ORD congestion would be nonexistent.

No body wants GYY, not even the people there.



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineMymiles2go From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 207 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4211 times:

Quoting JetBlueAUS (Reply 11):
Besides UA doesn't even fly ORD-JFK. Its not going to affect them that much.

Huh? JFK is coterminus with LGA and EWR. Of course ORD-JFK will cut into ORD-LGA. Since we're talking the low-cost crowd here the people are more likely to drive/train out of thier way to get a cheaper flight. Otherwise JetBlue's JFK hub would have failed long ago.


User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9617 posts, RR: 52
Reply 15, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4185 times:

Quoting N328KF (Reply 1):



This is a shocker; block B6 on a technicality. Sounds like AA vs. WN at LUV.

I don't think you can compare the two. United was cut down on flights in order to relieve congestion upon them being asked to. That obviously hurt their operations since it limited their flexibility, but the improvement was lower delays. By letting jetBlue come, more flights will come. The traffic levels will increase, and thus United only gets hurt. They have to cut down flights and open themselves to more competition in their biggest hub.

I'm a big fan of competition, but I can understand how this isn't fair to the incumbant. ORD is at capacity. MDW is pretty close to capacity and has gate issues, but there are airports in the vicinity of Chicago that would happily take on jetBlue. RFD, GYY and MKE would love new airlines. Some would go as far as offering profit guarantees and subsidies to get more service.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineCactus739 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2447 posts, RR: 31
Reply 16, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4162 times:

Quoting DL Widget Head (Reply 9):
Agreed. Anyone know what rules UA claims B6 is circumventing?

Well, if you read this very recent thread on jetBlue asking for ORD slots, you'll see there's a link to United's filing with the DOT.

JetBlue Applies For Slots At O'Hare (by Charlipr Oct 4 2006 in Civil Aviation)

Here's a link to make it easier for you.

http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/p87/416545.pdf



You can't fix stupid.... - Ron White
User currently offlineDL Widget Head From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 2092 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4132 times:

Quoting Cactus739 (Reply 16):
you'll see there's a link to United's filing with the DOT.

Thanks very much. It's an interesting read and seems like UA's position is legitimate.


User currently offlineCa2ohHP From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 955 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4020 times:

Quoting Scaledesigns (Reply 5):
The problem UA has is that the slots JETBLUE will be getting are part of the
slots UA/AA gave up to make things less congested at ORD.Now the FAA is giving them to another airline to allow competition?
I have no problem with Jetblue coming to ORD,but I also understand why UA and AA might be a little upset if they get the ex AA/UA slots.

I agree..almost. The last thing ORD needs is more congestion. Plus, why is Jetblue getting so far away from their low-cost business model? Wouldn't landing fees and user fees at any one of the alternate airports be lower?

You can bet that IF Jetblue at ORD ever comes to fruition, UA and AA will not stand back and watch.


User currently offlineTsaord From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3970 times:

Well if AA and UA gave up slots to easy congestion(which don't mean much when a storm barrels in lol) then B6 should wait untill ORD is complete with its expansion and renovations.

User currently offlineB6DC10 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3900 times:

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 13):
No body wants GYY, not even the people there.

***THIS JUST IN***

THE ENTIRE POPULATION OF GARY, INDIANA HAS MOVED TO AN UNDISCLOSED LOCATION. APPARENTLY, ALL OF THE FREE PARKING SENT THEM RUNNING FOR THE HILLS....

I don't think that B6 is going into the Chicago market with the intent of only having 8 flights forever. I think that O&D traffic will only dominate this market in the beginning. Remember, connections are available through both JFK and LGB.


User currently offlineORDagent From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 823 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3830 times:

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 7):
I still think if B6 was smart, they'd fly into Gary (GYY).

If you look at B6's cities they avoid secondary airports like the plague. They have a nice mix of leasure and business flyers. No widgit salesman from the hinterlands is going to fly into Gary. It's hard enough for many of them to even consider MDW which is a very nice facility!


User currently offlineCactus739 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2447 posts, RR: 31
Reply 22, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3797 times:

Quoting DL Widget Head (Reply 17):
Thanks very much. It's an interesting read and seems like UA's position is legitimate.

You're quite welcome. Their position is quite legit I'd have to say. I can honestly say I could care less if jetBlue got the slots they asked for or not, but they have to play by the rules. They aren't, so no slots for them. United says basically if they play by the rules they'll be "welcome".

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 7):
I still think if B6 was smart, they'd fly into Gary (GYY).

You're entitled to your opinion of course. jetBlue thinks they're doing the right thing.

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 7):
free parking would go over well

Score.



You can't fix stupid.... - Ron White
User currently offlineSHUPirate1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3670 posts, RR: 17
Reply 23, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3733 times:

Quoting ORDagent (Reply 21):
If you look at B6's cities they avoid secondary airports like the plague.

Long Beach, party of one, your table is ready, you'll be sitting with Hobby, party of one tonight.



Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
User currently offlineGoBlue From Canada, joined Jun 2006, 216 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3640 times:

United should be a little nervous, however B6 cannot compete with it internationally, nor can it compete on volume, but B6 can compete on inflight experience, and budget conscious consumers. For the few destinatinos that JetBlue will be able to serve from ORD to begin with United, can slowly figure out its plan of attack. AA is also at ORD, and somepeople forget about them vs. B6 at times.

However in a perfect world they will all run flights from ORD, and everyeone will make there revenue!


25 B6DC10 : Joining them would be Miss Oakland, with her children San Jose, Ontario, and Burbank. Sitting at the bar is Mr Ft. Lauderdale-Hollywood.
26 ORDagent : Point taken.
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