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America's Most Complete Hub?  
User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3722 posts, RR: 2
Posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 9131 times:

I was just wondering today: "what US airline has the most complete hub?"

For the hub to be "complete", it would have to succeed in 3 key elements:
-a large amount of nonstop international flights
-a significant amount of domestic feed (both mainline and regional)
-connecting opportunities for smaller communities within the US

Here's my views of the megahubs:

UA at ORD: Good domestic feed; very good Asian service, including China; so-so European and Latin American service
AA at ORD: Decent Asian service, including China (but not as good as UA), good European service, good domestic feed; Latin American service is via MIA
AA at DFW: Very good Latin American service and domestic service (esp. to smaller communities), decent European service; only Asian service is to NRT (let's hope that AA gets DFW-PEK)
DL at ATL: Very good domestic, European, and Latin American service; good service to smaller markets; only Asian service is to NRT
NW at MSP: Very good domestic service, so-so European and Asian service; no Latin American service
CO at EWR: Excellent European and decent Asian service (including China); not as much service to smaller markets

Which hub do you think has the best chance of becoming a truly complete hub? (Write-in suggestions are also welcome.) IMO, Delta's ATL hub has the best chance of becoming a truly complete hub. All it needs is significantly better Asian service, and especially routes to China.


I don't work for FWA, their tenants, or their ad agency. But I still love FWA.
81 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCOERJ145 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1421 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 9106 times:

NW at MSP or DTW.

Quoting FWAERJ (Thread starter):
NW at MSP: Very good domestic service, so-so European and Asian service; no Latin American service

NW has a seasonal flight to Liberia, Costa Rica from MSP. That should count as Latin America


User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 9094 times:

I don't think any U.S. airport has a "complete" hub as you speak of. I think most airlines are fairly well spread out. Here's my examples:

UA:

SFO handles west coast and most of the Asia flights, with tandem service at LAX. DEN handles a lot of middle America, whereas ORD is the big international hub. Granted, UA is not huge to Europe, but their affiliation with LH handles that well. Further, IAD allows for some east-coast connections, but there is a fairly large U.S. Capital - International O&D service (IAD-KWI is a good example).

CO:

IAH is a major hub, and in fact handles the vast majority of their Latin American services. EWR, on the other hand, is perfectly situated to handle Europe-bound traffic by providing a lot of O&D service to smaller European cities from the nation's largest metropolitan area, something IAH couldn't do.

AA:

MIA and SJU have to be a cash cows for AA - the O&D numbers at both have to be staggering. Connecting traffic? That's all that SJU is, and it exists at MIA. Domestically, MIA as a hub would be ludicrous. But DFW is perfectly situated, which is its forte.

DL:

The JFK hub counts on a LOT of O&D traffic. The connecting opportunities, while existent, aren't there for a large number of places.

But it's a good staging area to judge traffic levels. If it turns out to be successful, and there's the demand for it, a flight can be added at ATL. Athens is a good example of this - great numbers JFK-ATH indicated that an ATL-ATH flight would be successful, and it was.

My two cents worth.



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineJamincan From Canada, joined Aug 2006, 775 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 9049 times:

AC at YYZ  Wink



..


User currently offlineDornier328JET From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 122 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 8922 times:

Quoting Jamincan (Reply 3):

Lol.

I'd have to say either UA at ORD or AA out of DFW. Both have fairly complete domestic and international networks. DL at ATL is up there to, though.

We must remember, no hub in the USA is prefect. That's just the nature of the US airline industry.


User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8193 posts, RR: 24
Reply 5, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 8869 times:

Atlanta. You can go anywhere in DL's system through ATL 10 times over and on any kind of plane in the fleet. That place is ridiculous.


This Website Censors Me
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9510 posts, RR: 52
Reply 6, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 8844 times:

While Atlanta is the biggest and by far has the most service, I think CO at EWR is more balanced because of the number of international flights. They serve the key markets everywhere. UA at ORD is big, but does not have the number of international destinations that CO has at EWR. ORD and ATL have better domestic feed, but CO at EWR is pretty good. But all in all, it depends on where you are going as to what the best hub is. I still think that EWR is great for its combination of high O/D and connections and international service.


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineCessna057 From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 439 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 8843 times:

CO at EWR because its fairly well situated. If you need to go to Europe, with most of the US you can make a connection and it is on the way, however, with ATL, alot of people in the country have to go further south and then back north


Hold it . . . Hold it . . . HOLD THE FREAKIN NOSE UP!!
User currently offlineAirportGuy1971 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 355 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 8791 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Thread starter):
For the hub to be "complete", it would have to succeed in 3 key elements:
-a large amount of nonstop international flights
-a significant amount of domestic feed (both mainline and regional)
-connecting opportunities for smaller communities within the US

F9 at DEN?

 blockhead 
 crackup 
 rotfl 


User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 9, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 8781 times:

In terms of distribution of destinations, NW at DTW has got to be awful near the top.

That said, UA out of ORD is easily #1



"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineThomasphoto60 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3924 posts, RR: 23
Reply 10, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 8759 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Thread starter):
CO at EWR: Excellent European and decent Asian service (including China); not as much service to smaller markets

Poor ol' IAH!

I suppose the late, great Rodney Dangeifield's catch phrase might apply to IAH "they just don't get no respect"

Thomas



"Show me the Braniffs"
User currently offlineLOT767-300ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 8760 times:

Quoting COERJ145 (Reply 1):
NW has a seasonal flight to Liberia, Costa Rica from MSP. That should count as Latin America

Son, Liberia is in Africa and not in Latin America. Since when does NW fly to Liberia?

I say UA at ORD.


User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 8743 times:

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 11):
Son, Liberia is in Africa and not in Latin America. Since when does NW fly to Liberia?

Son, get out your geography book:

http://www.govisitcostarica.com/region/city.asp?cID=15

Libera is also in Africa, only country other then the US to have it's capital named after a US president.


User currently offlineThomasphoto60 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3924 posts, RR: 23
Reply 13, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 8699 times:

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 12):
Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 11):
Son, Liberia is in Africa and not in Latin America. Since when does NW fly to Liberia?

Son, get out your geography book:

http://www.govisitcostarica.com/region/city.asp?cID=15

Libera is also in Africa, only country other then the US to have it's capital named after a US president.

I've been to both Liberia's and definitely prefer the Costa Rican city over the West African nation.

Thomas



"Show me the Braniffs"
User currently offlineOrdryan28 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 988 posts, RR: 16
Reply 14, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 8661 times:

UA @ ORD, without a doubt


Whoever said winning is not everything never fought cancer.
User currently offlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3466 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 8589 times:

I don't think any airline can touch DL at ATL. Over 70 international destinations, for a total of over 240 destinations on (soon to be) 5 continents. No other airline has anything close, not by destinations served, passengers carried, or number of continents. People who are saying ORD must not realize that UA Express has more flights than mainline UA. After ATL, it's difficult because other large hubs aren't well balanced. While ATL only has service to NRT, DFW only has service to NRT (KIX is being discontinued again). DFW is close, because it's the only hub comparable in size to ATL (but it also only has service to 4 European destinations (LGW, CDG, FRA, and ZRH), and IAH has become a juggernaut for CO, but only serves 3 European destinations. After ATL, DFW, and IAH, I'd say UA at ORD as it's the most balanced with international service.

Jeremy


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11452 posts, RR: 61
Reply 16, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 8553 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Thread starter):
I was just wondering today: "what US airline has the most complete hub?"

For the hub to be "complete", it would have to succeed in 3 key elements:
-a large amount of nonstop international flights
-a significant amount of domestic feed (both mainline and regional)
-connecting opportunities for smaller communities within the US

Well, based on the criteria you've laid out, the clear winner in the "complete" department would have to be Delta's Atlanta hub.

It is by far the world's largest hub, with a bevy of international flights to cities throughout Europe and Latin America, and now even flights to the Mid East and Africa. Internationally, the only deficiency for Atlanta is that it has virtually no presence in the Asia market, with only a single daily flight to Tokyo. Domestically, once again, it wins hands down with flights to dozens of cities throughout the U.S., and service to the vast majority of states on a year-round or seasonal basis. In addition, many of these cities are smaller communities along the eastern seaboard and the Atlantic southeast.

The only other hub, in my view, that comes close to Atlanta in terms of its "completeness" is American's D/FW hub. While it is not as big as Atlanta international or domestically, it still holds its own with nonstop flights to four of Europe's largest economic and political capitals, plus cities throughout Latin America, and flights to Tokyo. Domestically, it has a massive amount of feed to cities throughout the United States and provides feed to many smaller cities and towns in the south and midwest, some of which have D/FW as their only nonstop hub service.


User currently offlineTZ757300 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2867 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 8515 times:

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 2):
Athens is a good example of this - great numbers JFK-ATH indicated that an ATL-ATH flight would be successful, and it was.

If an ATL-ATH flight did well, why did they get rid of it?



LETS GO MOUNTAINEERS!
User currently onlineCOSPN From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1606 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 8491 times:

CO EWR,

HNL,TLV, anyplace in the UK, Ireland with a "Driveway" over 6000ft,(If you Live in UK,Ireland and have a long driveway please post a private property sign or you might wake up to a CO 752 in front of your house  Smile )Brazil,NRT,HKG,PEK,almost everyplace NY/NJ'ers want to go, PVG soon {I hope}


User currently offlinePtugarin From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 326 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 8480 times:

Quoting COSPN (Reply 18):
CO EWR,

Agree 100%, despite the lack of flights to Australia and Africa


User currently offlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3466 posts, RR: 10
Reply 20, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 8316 times:

Quoting TZ757300 (Reply 17):

If an ATL-ATH flight did well, why did they get rid of it?

Huh? It's currently operating 5x weekly.

Jeremy


User currently offlineCaptaink From Mexico, joined May 2001, 5109 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 8304 times:

Though not being from the US, i have a special affinity for US Airways. Noone mentioned them how sad  Sad.

But I guess they are far from having complete hubs. PHL, European gateway, few caribbean/latin america. CLT, more caribbean/latin america, few European. Not sure about US West operations.



There is something special about planes....
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5371 posts, RR: 7
Reply 22, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 8163 times:

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 15):
I don't think any airline can touch DL at ATL.

Hasn't South America been a steady loser for Delta? Sooner or later bankrupt airlines realize they are not in the route development business.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineTZ757300 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2867 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 8100 times:

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 20):
Huh? It's currently operating 5x weekly.

I'm not trying to doubt you, but are you sure? You can't book the nonstop on the DL website.

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 2):
Athens is a good example of this - great numbers JFK-ATH indicated that an ATL-ATH flight would be successful, and it was.



LETS GO MOUNTAINEERS!
User currently offlineDb373 From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 238 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (7 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 7952 times:

Quoting Cessna057 (Reply 7):
CO at EWR because its fairly well situated. If you need to go to Europe, with most of the US you can make a connection and it is on the way, however, with ATL, alot of people in the country have to go further south and then back north

Disagree. EWR meets the qualifications for international, but it still doesn't have the same domestic connecting oppurtunites as ATL, DFW, or ORD.



Keep Delta My Delta
25 Texdravid : True, but in Texas, it is king. Don't let the DFW people convince you otherwise, Thomas!! Cheers, Tex
26 SESGDL : DL has been extremely successful to South America. Last summer they even operated ATL-SCL twice daily on some days. They now have the 2nd or 3rd larg
27 Lemurs : How is that measured by the way? From what I can tell, there are a huge number of domestic connecting opportunities out of EWR. Maybe not as many DL
28 Post contains links Luisde8cd : I really doubt that. There has been nothing but route upgrades in South America this year. *Sigh* this is another example of why the US Education Sys
29 Captaink : I didn't follow, theh American dude was talking about LIbera Costa Rica, the Polish said, Liberia is in Africa. Both are correct as Liberia is a city
30 Post contains images Lemurs : Well, thank you for proving the educational system in Grenada works at least.
31 2travel2know : IMHO, ATL may be U.S.A. most complete hub, even if flights to the Far East and Africa are almost non-existant. EWR, DFW or ORD could be a close 2nd, b
32 Galapagapop : AA's DFW is full of them mAAd Dogs, they got tons of domestic feed, good location, and decent number of latin american routes. ATL is certainly there
33 MPDPilot : I have to say I think that ATL beats them all. But I think some of us are over looking DTW. DTW has almost all of NW asian, euopean, Latin american (
34 AADC10 : Obviously the US hub with the best balance of international destinations (except to Latin America) would have to be the combined UA-AA hub at ORD. For
35 Post contains images SLCUT2777 : Not to go into thread drift or off-topic but look no further than the NEA ! Despite the lack of respect many give the CO hub at IAH, I think the DL h
36 Post contains links QFSYD744 : JFK, LAX, MIA, ORD JFK#1 International U.S. gateway LAX#2 International U.S. gateway MIA#3 International U.S. gateway ORD#4 International U.S. gatewa
37 Phishphan70 : i think i would have to say NW at DTW and MSP is right up there with Delta in Atlanta. but as someone who flys NW from SFO-MSP or DTW atleast twice a
38 Post contains images TheGreatChecko : How about MEM on FX. They have nonstops everywhere. Probably the only hub that really meets the three criteria in the US. Checko
39 Gigneil : There's no contest. ATL serves more destinations domestically and internationally. N
40 Lemurs : RE: LAX...yes LAX is an awesome O/D airport...but it's no one's awesome hub, and that is kind of the gist of this whole thread, and the reason it has
41 Alitalia744 : Mighty impressive list, but many international carriers a hub does not make.
42 QFSYD744 : FYI - JFK, LAX, MIA, ORD JFK#1 International U.S. gateway LAX#2 International U.S. gateway MIA#3 International U.S. gateway ORD#4 International U.S.
43 Glareskin : First I'd like to say that the title is misleading; this is about one-airline-hubs. As an international traveller that frequently visits the US I feel
44 SESGDL : DL's ATL hub has significantly more capacity and flights than AA at DFW. While AA uses MD-80s everywhere, DL often has 757s and 767s to places. DL al
45 OzarkD9S : I'm gonna throw in my two cents and say ORD. A two alliance hub, combine AA/UA with Star/oneworld and it's probably the best connected airport in the
46 777STL : And AA doesn't have 757s and 767s out of DFW? American has more 757s, 767s and 777s combined than DL does. DL is only bigger at ATL because DL is muc
47 Post contains images Brilondon : I completely agree that this is a complete hub. To bad YYZ is also the most expensive hub in NA to connect with . AC has let it be known for a while
48 L1011buff : I live near PHL and use US fairly often. With regard to their system, they have a great deal of feeding from smaller airlines, plus their entire Europ
49 Yellowtail : Oh..boy..better duck...flames are a coming....just wait till those DFWers get over their afternoon hangovers! Me personally..Houston anyday!!!!
50 LH463 : I'd have to say it would be Lufthansa out of Frankfurt, but wait... that's not in America[Edited 2006-10-07 00:21:45]
51 SESGDL : What are you talking about? That has nothing to do with my post. DL has over 200 daily ATL flights with 757s or 767s, and AA can't touch that at DFW.
52 CayMan : Although the topic title states "America's" most complete hub, and that most certainly could be taken to mean anywhere in N or S America on any defin
53 Post contains images DALOCCDtyDrctr : Only when the 777 is added to the figure - DL operates 225 -57 and -67 A/C (soon to be 235 with the acquisition of the 10 ex-TWA A/C, and that nbr co
54 777STL : Sorry for interjecting a little reality to offset your DL cheerleading. And your point is irrelevant, it just leads to what I've already stated, DL i
55 Post contains images SLCUT2777 : Actually YYZ has some competitors for such a dubious honor in the form of DFW, MIA and SEA. They aren't far behind, and until the last couple of year
56 CayMan : Here here could not be said better. At the GTAA, screw the customer (the airlines) is the motto, we, the collective, the govt, the almighty (GTAA) kn
57 SLCUT2777 : AA is merely just as concentrated at both ORD & DFW as DL is in ATL, AA being the larger carrier needing the two hubs for both northern and southern
58 AirCanada014 : I pick UA for ORD or CO for EWR.. don't know why you pick DL for Atlanta.. still lacks behind in pacific...I put DL in 3rd.. tough choice for UA and C
59 Mpdpilot : so maybe I don't understand the thread but we are talking about hubs, so transfer cities. In that statement ORD could only be mearsured by UA or AA no
60 777STL : Yes, exactly, that's what I've been saying. ATL is most certainly a larger hub than anything AA has, but that's because DL is more or less focused on
61 WorldTraveler : Once AA divests itself of the ex-TW 757s, DL will be both the largest operator of 757s and 767s. But aircraft types alone don't make a hub. EWR has t
62 AirCanada014 : most of the 200 cities are in the US alone... but as for Destinations I don't think so...
63 WorldTraveler : DL serves dozens of cities outside of the US - about 50 to Latin America and the Caribbean alone and nearly two dozen more cities to Europe and Africa
64 Kesflyer : Actually it is daily May - Oct 2006. Returns again in May 2007. Not dropped at all, just seasonal.
65 Texdravid : It is ORD, hands down. Great international reach. Great domestic reach. UA's base. AA's number 2 port, but more international here for AA than at DFW,
66 United319 : DL at ATL UA at ORD
67 Post contains images SLCUT2777 : And for YYZ/Pearson they love to blame the Federal Transportation Ministry for their high fees! That said any airport with atrociously high fees is a
68 Post contains images SESGDL : SLC and CVG are both sizeable/large hubs, with around 350 and 440 daily flights respectively, if that's not sizeable then I don't know what you'd cal
69 LAXdude1023 : Definately there are three hubs which I think can be classified as Super-Hubs if we look at the amount of flights: ATL ORD DFW There seems to be a big
70 SLCUT2777 : If you're going to use geographical location into the mix then might I suggest you also include DEN since it likewise was designed to be a super-hub
71 LAXdude1023 : Agreed. DEN doesnt have quite the numbers that ORD, ATL, and DFW have, but I do agree that it is in a great place (geographically) for a hub. DEN doe
72 777STL : I'm not arguing the facts, I'm arguing the opinions. Every thread, and I mean every thread I see you chime in on, it's always something about DL. Alw
73 Vincewy : Thread too long, I fly through DTW for the first time today, man, The McNamara Terminal is almost like a new Asian airport except it lacks many servic
74 SLCUT2777 : I'm located here in SLC and am a DL frequent flyer (I fly out to YVR in about 9.5 hours! Back Wednesday, visit to fiancee, just approved by USCIS for
75 CentPIT : For one PIT and MEM aren't hubs in my eyes. CLE is a fairly small hub, but hub none the less.
76 SESGDL : That's because they're threads about DL, or someone brings DL up. On an A380 thread you don't see me saying a word about Delta. But what do you expec
77 Vincewy : Putting international networks aside, which terminals/hubs are the best/most modern with a lot of shopping/dining/etc? PIT (shopping), DEN, and DTW co
78 Tys777 : Already in the process of it, they tore down the old Davey terminal and the hotel. In a few years it will also be ready
79 Avianca : you forget the SouthAmerican service. for me the best hub has CO at EWR followed by UA at ORD and DL at ATL
80 CentPIT : As far as I know PIT still has more daily departures than MEM and isn't a "hub" for US. US does however have two fairly large banks from PIT, 7:30-9:
81 Steeler83 : I don't see PIT becomming another major hub for any carrier, but it would be nice to see it become a smaller BOS... a multi-focus city. Let's see...
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