Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
What Is FL Doing  
User currently offlineMcofreak From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 55 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4532 times:

OK OK I just want to ask a simple question. FL missed the boat on the MDW thing and also missed out on expanding big at BOS instead of B6, which I understand may have been primarily due to aircraft shortage but why do they seem so hesitant to expand any to the west. There load factor is dropping and they are slowing down aircraft deliveries and they seem to be adding alot of flights to already well served markets MDW-RSW etc. Bye the way I understand they have added some good routes also.... I just think they should add more west cities to compliment there great east coast routes.

30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineN701AA From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 61 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4522 times:

Quoting Mcofreak (Thread starter):
FL missed the boat on the MDW

I have a question for you...why go into MDW and compete head to head with Southwest?

Quoting Mcofreak (Thread starter):
I just think they should add more west cities to compliment there great east coast routes.

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't it until last year that FL stopped leasing A320's from Ryan to fly their west coast routes? With their present aircraft mix they probably need to establish a mid continent hub (expensive) to be able to serve the west. But again, you would be competing with carriers with more resources and presence than FL.


User currently offlineMcofreak From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 55 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4516 times:

Are they still not trying to expand MDW now with what they have even though WN is even bigger? They can co-exist just as they do at BWI and how AA and UA do at ORD.

User currently offlineB6WNQX From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 247 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4510 times:

Quoting N701AA (Reply 1):
probably need to establish a mid continent hub

I don't think that they would need to do this just for the fleet. They are currently taking deliveries of 737-700's which have enough range to make the west coast to hawaii (Aloha uses them) so they should not have a problem making ATL to anywhere out here. They do fly to SEA (Seasonally), LAX, LAS, and SFO I believe.

They currently funnel some 717's through DFW to some west coast cities. They may be a little hesitant because of WN's presence out here along with F9, B6's transcons, AS, QX, along with all the majors. I know that hasn't stopped them from expanding on the east coast but they have name recognition back there. Just a thought.


User currently offlineDL Widget Head From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 2100 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4499 times:

Quoting Mcofreak (Thread starter):
they seem so hesitant to expand any to the west. There load factor is dropping and they are slowing down aircraft deliveries

DL's putting the bite on them is what's happening. They would be better off (and so would DL) if FL moved to and hubbed out of IND IMO.

[Edited 2006-10-06 08:46:03]

User currently offlineN701AA From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 61 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4494 times:

Quoting Mcofreak (Reply 2):
Are they still not trying to expand MDW now with what they have even though WN is even bigger?

In my opinion, what they are trying to do at MDW is avoid markets that compete head to head with SWA. With the exception on MCO, FL's hometown, other cities served are non SWA cities, like ATL, BOS, CLT, DFW, EWR, MSP and SRQ.

Quoting Mcofreak (Reply 2):
They can co-exist just as they do at BWI and how AA and UA do at ORD.

Usually when two airlines share a hub, one dominates and the other looses money. In ORD, UA dominates and AA looses money. In BWI when SWA landed USAir left town. In DFW, DL closed shop after years of trying to compete with AA. I think the reason FL has been able to co-exist with DL in ATL is that they have kept their capacity relatively small, with lower cost than DL, with enought traffic to make it work.


User currently offlineN701AA From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 61 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4475 times:

Quoting B6WNQX (Reply 3):

I don't think that they would need to do this just for the fleet. They are currently taking deliveries of 737-700's which have enough range to make the west coast to hawaii (Aloha uses them) so they should not have a problem making ATL to anywhere out here.

Absoluletly, but I don't think DL will stay quiet and let that happen. Any significant expansion by FL to the west out of ATL will be met by an onslaught of DL 757's and 767's with a 777 here and there. That would be good for us, but not for either airline.


User currently offlineAirScoot From United States of America, joined May 2005, 688 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4376 times:

Quoting N701AA (Reply 5):
In ORD, UA dominates and AA looses money.

Are you sure that AA loses money at ORD? If so, what source are you going by? I'd say they're definately not dominate there but they do have quite a business.


User currently offlineN701AA From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 61 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4260 times:

Quoting AirScoot (Reply 7):
Are you sure that AA loses money at ORD? If so, what source are you going by?

Read it in an article about the future of hub networking. Maybe an AA Insider in this forum can comment further.


User currently offlineRumorboy From United States of America, joined Aug 2002, 356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4176 times:

Quoting DL Widget Head (Reply 4):
DL's putting the bite on them is what's happening. They would be better off (and so would DL) if FL moved to and hubbed out of IND IMO.

I don't think thats going to happen anytime soon.

That would Greenstien's wet dream.  rotfl 


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4074 times:

Quoting N701AA (Reply 5):
I think the reason FL has been able to co-exist with DL in ATL is that they have kept their capacity relatively small, with lower cost than DL, with enought traffic to make it work.

FL has commented that they have been surprised that DL is as aggressive in growing ATL given DL's overall domestic capacity. FL doesn't have much gate space to grow in ATL but they are finding that DL is keeping more than enough seats in the market to keep from FL from getting the bump they expected. FL's load factor was down on quite a bit more capacity for September while DL's was up on less capacity, although as much or more flights in most of the primary business destinations. DL has reduced its connecting traffic at ATL and is competing more effectively for the ATL local passenger. FL will find it harder to compete with DL whose costs are much lower now.

FL does need a strategic breakthrough, some place they can call their own but right now FL is second fiddle to someone else in every major market they serve. Some airlines can make that role work but it's not typical for a carrier the size of FL.


User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4054 times:

Quoting B6WNQX (Reply 3):
They currently funnel some 717's through DFW to some west coast cities.

Not anymore. They dropped DFW-LAX not too long after they started it, and DFW-LAS is about to be dropped to a seasonal service. The DFW-LAS flight had been a continuation of an ATL-DFW flight and was the first leg of a LAS-DFW-ATL flight. They've been using the 73G on the route for quite sometime, as the route was quite popular out of and into ATL.

Quoting N701AA (Reply 1):
Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't it until last year that FL stopped leasing A320's from Ryan to fly their west coast routes?

The last Ryan International-operated flights were about two years ago.


User currently offlineB6WNQX From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 247 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4047 times:

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 11):
Not anymore.

Very good to know. Thanks for the info.


User currently offlineBoslax From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 106 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4047 times:

From Aug 2005 to Sep 2006, Delta's monthly capacity in the ATL markets where FL operates nonstop service was down year over year. In a few of those months, DL's capacity was down over 20%. Well it looks like DL is now bringing back capacity in these markets - Nov 2006 DL capacity will be up 13%. Maybe this is what is making FL nervous.

User currently offlineAccess-Air From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1940 posts, RR: 12
Reply 14, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4022 times:

I think that St.Louis would be a nice place for Air Tran to set down as a focus city of sorts and bring some full sized airliners into the area ratehr than subject STL to nothing but Regional jets of AAEagle....Of course WN has alarge operation out of STL but not to everywhere.....Just an Idea....

Access-Air



Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
User currently offlineMarkATL From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 540 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3952 times:

Quoting N701AA (Reply 5):
With the exception on MCO, FL's hometown

I would be hesitant to put much stock in the "hometown" thing with FL. The original FL was a little known vacation airline with one to three times a week service to most of it's cities. ValuJet needing a new face after the MIA crash bought them for their name and address (MCO). Today's FL is for all practical purposes the same ATL based ValuJet.



"...left my home in Georgia, 'n headed for the "Frisco" Bay...
User currently offlineRumorboy From United States of America, joined Aug 2002, 356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3895 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 10):
FL will find it harder to compete with DL whose costs are much lower now.

Either way you slice it Airtan will still have about a 40% cost advantage(adjusted to Airtran's stage legnth) against Delta even after bankruptcy.


User currently offlineAtrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5702 posts, RR: 52
Reply 17, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3864 times:

Quoting Access-Air (Reply 14):
I think that St.Louis would be a nice place for Air Tran to set down as a focus city of sorts and bring some full sized airliners into the area ratehr than subject STL to nothing but Regional jets of AAEagle....Of course WN has alarge operation out of STL but not to everywhere.....Just an Idea....

While an Idea, STL is certainly up on FL's list but how soon no idea.

And it is American Connection, not Eagle. Only have 3 or 4 Eagle flights out of STL.

There are a ton of places FL can fly to out of STL without touching WN, RSW, BOS, LGA, ATL, SFO, SAN.

Alex



Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 3788 times:

Quoting Rumorboy (Reply 16):
Either way you slice it Airtan will still have about a 40% cost advantage(adjusted to Airtran's stage legnth) against Delta even after bankruptcy.

FL's system cost advantage now is less than 20% of DL's even on a mileage adjusted basis and shrinking as DL continues to cut costs.


User currently offlineATLAaron From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1028 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 3773 times:

I have to agree that they need to work on building a second hub somewhere. Then overtime they can slowly or overnight (such as DL shutting DFW) make that their dominant hub. Now that DL is become a leaner more cost effective carrier FL will continue to be battled head on. If they want to keep growing like Wall Street wants them to, they will need something other than ATL.

User currently offlineCallsigncitrus From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 24 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3547 times:

FL is still looking at mdw for a second hub. they did alot of expanding this past year to markets that they already serve. i think this upcoming year will be a big growth year launching some new cities. Heck, they have already announced Newburgh (New York) as FL's newest city and its not even Jan yet. I think 2007 will be an awesome year for FL.

User currently offlineATLAaron From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1028 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks ago) and read 3486 times:

Quoting Callsigncitrus (Reply 20):
FL is still looking at mdw for a second hub.

I certainly think they could find somewhere better than MDW. O/D passengers looking for low fares in Chicago are already being serviced by WN .


User currently offlineQuickmover From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2502 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3446 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 18):
FL's system cost advantage now is less than 20% of DL's even on a mileage adjusted basis and shrinking as DL continues to cut costs.

Seems ironic that Delta might end up with lower costs than both FL and WN (ex fuel hedges).


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16908 posts, RR: 51
Reply 23, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3428 times:

Hopefully with AA and UAL pulling out of MDW FL can add some more flights, I think FL would be ideally situated with somewhere between 58-60 daily flights at MDW.

For new Midway routes they should add some West Coast connections which would obviously compete with WN such as LAS, LAX, SFO. However I would focus on adding East Coast Business markets such as;

Rochester (2xs daily), Laguardia (5xs daily), Washington Nation (3xs daily), Westchester 2xs daily etc.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16908 posts, RR: 51
Reply 24, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3414 times:

As for new airports I think there's alot of potential in New Jersey, particularly Trenton Mercer Airport and Atlantic City International Airport.

Trenton Mercer:
FLL 1 daily, MCO 2 daily, TPA 1 daily, MDW 2 daily, ATL 2 daily, BOS 3 daily

Atlantic City:

Atlanta 3 daily, MDW 2 daily.

Atlantic City and Trenton are two places FL could turn to to serve both the Philadelphia and New Jersey markets without competiting so much with WN and US at PHL.

Perhaps keep ATL and BOS flights as they are at PHL but move the Florida flights to Trenton and Atlantic City.

Trenton is in a much more populated and affluent area than SWF, and Atlantic City has a large and growing regional population, growing tourism industry, and conveinent access to Philadelphia and New Jersey.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
25 Rumorboy : Really? 2nd quarter 06 non fuel CASM / Stage length LUV 6.68 / 619 AAI 6.29 / 652 JBLU 5.17 / 1253 Delta's last results were for AUG 06 DAL 6.66 / 10
26 N200WN : I don't think MDW-LAS would be such a good market for FL. WN is running a high frequency service on the route with eleven nonstops a day plus two one
27 Post contains images Steeler83 : While it is true FL would compete head to head with MDW-LAS/LAX, it would not on MDW-SFO, at least directly anyway. WN does not serve SFO... But stil
28 Quickmover : I'm not so sure about that. AAI has been trying to get a new labor agreement with the pilots for a while now. I'm not sure where the flight attendant
29 ATCT : Are you forgetting Regex's JetStream 32s??? Jeez, and I thought better of you! :P Personally I like Citrus's focus on the east coast. Allegheny/Piedm
30 Post contains links Rumorboy : pilots still are in negotiations. Flight attendant's settled there contract a couple of years ago. 717's are getting costlier BUT they are taking new
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
What Is CE Doing In Amsterdam? posted Thu Jun 9 2005 11:18:48 by Bluepoole
What Is AirTran Doing?! posted Tue Feb 8 2005 15:57:30 by Jerion
Il-62 At LHR Right NOW! What Is She Doing There? posted Wed Dec 8 2004 15:18:32 by UTA_flyingHIGH
What Is MEA Doing In Warsaw? posted Fri Jul 23 2004 12:42:52 by OD-BWH
What Is SV Doing With All The B737? posted Sun Jul 18 2004 20:47:02 by ConcordeLoss
What Is This A/C Doing Here? posted Mon Jun 21 2004 17:39:03 by A3xx900
What Is SQ Doing PR Wise To Hype Up EWR-SIN In US posted Tue Jun 15 2004 06:34:46 by SQ452
What Is He Doing! posted Sun Apr 11 2004 16:51:22 by EK413
What Is This A/c Doing In Kmia? posted Wed Feb 11 2004 19:50:34 by SpdBrdConcorde
What Is Freshaer Doing NOW? posted Sun Nov 30 2003 19:58:26 by Aviaction