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Airbus Dropped Program To Add Winglets To A320s  
User currently offlineTerryb99 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 291 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 14539 times:

Did not see this posted anywhere.

From this weeks SpeedNews;

AIRBUS dropped program to add winglets to A320s after analysis (both Airbus- and WINGLET TECHNOLOGIES-designed winglets were tested) showed benefits did not offset additional weight and required structural reinforcement.

104 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSkepticAll From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 14514 times:

Will this decison affect JBU's desire to equip their new A320's with winglets or are these modifications being done "in-house" so to speak.

I think the A320 with those NG style winglets look very nice.


User currently offlineScouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3364 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 14497 times:

Quoting SkepticAll (Reply 1):
I think the A320 with those NG style winglets look very nice.

So do I but sadly looking nice is not a factor that airlines consider when buying planes


User currently offlineGrantcv From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 429 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 14198 times:

Quoting SkepticAll (Reply 1):
Will this decison affect JBU's desire to equip their new A320's with winglets or are these modifications being done "in-house" so to speak.

I don't think that an in-house retrofit by JetBlue is likely. I believe that the problem was a structural one, requiring strengthening of the wing to handle the winglets. This strengthening offset the benefits and also makes a retrofit that much more difficult and costly.

I wonder how this decision affects the earlier talk of a 5% improvement in the A320 through various upgrades. This seems to be a major setback towards that goal.


User currently offlineCricket From India, joined Aug 2005, 2964 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 13954 times:

A question here - since winglets were always on the BBJ series on the 737NG's the NG's wings were always strong enough structurally to deal with the winglet mods, right?


A300B2/B4/6R, A313, A319/320/321, A333, A343, A388, 737-2/3/4/7/8/9, 747-3/4, 772/2E/2L/3, E170/190, F70, CR2/7, 146-3,
User currently offlineFlyUSCG From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 656 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 13888 times:

Quoting Cricket (Reply 5):
A question here - since winglets were always on the BBJ series on the 737NG's the NG's wings were always strong enough structurally to deal with the winglet mods, right?

EXACTLY. Airbus has a habit of building their a/c to the absolute minimum to meet specs. Thats why they had to cancel the winglets for the A320 and why they most likely will not be certified. Adding winglets adds extra stress to a wing and their wings are not strong enough to handle it. They break everytime. Same problem with the A380 and why they couldn't put winglets on that. They would have to strengthen the wing even more. Boeing on the other hand builds their a/c to exceed standards. The 741/2/3 had such a strong wing initially that when the 400 came out, they were able to add the extension and the winglet and still have a strong enough wing. The problem with the general public and people on here as that they base everything on orders. When it comes to building planes, Boeing builds them better. Airbus builds a weaker plane. That is why a large majority of Airbus's are leased and now owned. Companies dont have plans to keep them very long. A high up former engineer with northwest was in a meeting with my roommate during his internship and was saying that a 10 year old 737 has the same reliability as a brand new A320.



Go Trojans! Fight On!
User currently offlineUkair From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 13826 times:

This just goes to show that winglets are nothing more than a passing fad, an aviation fashion accessory if you will.

User currently offlineBoomBoom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 13727 times:

Quoting Ukair (Reply 7):
This just goes to show that winglets are nothing more than a passing fad, an aviation fashion accessory if you will.

You couldn't be more wrong. Southwest doesn't spend money on fashion accessories. And why do you think Airbus puts "wingtip fences" on their A320s--to make them look fugly?

Quote:
Southwest said yesterday that an analysis showed the 8-foot-high winglets, which add about 5 feet to the airplane's total wingspan, will allow its 737-700s to fly up to 115 nautical miles farther and reduce fuel burn. Southwest said it expects to save an average of up to 92,000 gallons of fuel per plane per year.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/127079_air18.html

Quote:
After flight testing on a 737-800 showed they improved mileage by as much as 6 percent or more on long-range flight, Boeing decided to incorporate them as a standard feature on the business jet.

"This is going to give the 737 a substantial performance advantage over the Airbus A320, especially in high-altitude airports.

Planes with the winglet technology will need less power on take off, he said, and that means less noise. And because of the fuel savings, airlines can put less fuel on their planes and more paying passengers, Clark said.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/wing18.shtml

[Edited 2006-10-07 01:58:22]

User currently offlineKatekebo From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 702 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 13663 times:

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 6):
They break everytime.

What are you talking about?

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 6):
The 741/2/3 had such a strong wing initially that when the 400 came out, they were able to add the extension and the winglet and still have a strong enough wing.

Wrong. The -400 has an entirely new wing.

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 6):
That is why a large majority of Airbus's are leased and now owned.

???????? Do you have any data to back up your statement or it's just your opinion.

I'm a strong Boeing supporter, but a preference for one manufacturer or another is not a justification to making factually incorrect statements.

Quoting Ukair (Reply 7):
This just goes to show that winglets are nothing more than a passing fad, an aviation fashion accessory if you will.

They are evolving. Boeing raked wing tips are the latest evolution of the winglets.


User currently offlineTAP340 From Portugal, joined Oct 2004, 102 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 13616 times:

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 6):
When it comes to building planes, Boeing builds them better. Airbus builds a weaker plane.

This is the typical difference between American engineering and European engineering. We optimize, you build large. Take the Dodge Viper for example: It has a 8.3 liters and produces 500hp!!! That is less hp per liter than my mom's Saab 9.5! Now take an European car with a similar engine: The Veyron. It has 8 liters and produces over 1000hp! That is the double! European optimization in a nut shell. In cars it is stupid, but in planes, as you have proven, it is worth the initial price.

Quoting Ukair (Reply 7):
This just goes to show that winglets are nothing more than a passing fad, an aviation fashion accessory if you will.

What?!? They are an engineering feit! Reducing fuel burn without messing with the engine, and not much with center eing box/eing

BTW: Airbus is developing new technologies to compensate/complement the fences.

[Edited 2006-10-07 02:17:39]

[Edited 2006-10-07 02:20:10]

[Edited 2006-10-07 02:20:52]

User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21415 posts, RR: 60
Reply 10, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 13604 times:

Quoting Ukair (Reply 7):
This just goes to show that winglets are nothing more than a passing fad, an aviation fashion accessory if you will.

Part of the problem for Airbus is that they already use fences to reach their goals. Boeing didn't use anything on the NG to match the Airbus for efficiency. So, adding the blended winglets gave them gains in efficiency over having nothing.

But for the A320, adding the winglets would only give them incremental gains over the fences, not as cost effective.

Further, from the pictures, Airbus looked to be working with smaller winglets, maybe to save weight and not have to add strengthening, but those didn't provide much benefit.

I never understood the small winglets in the pictures. Seemed like they were doing a half-assed job to just prove they don't work.

But Embraer, Boeing, Airbus and MD and others disagreed on other, non-A320 aircraft. Boeing is using the winglets to increase range on the 739ER over the 739, so if it were a fad, it would be detracting from range and Boeing would not be making it standard.

It's just that they don't work on the A320 in the way they were applied.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineBoomBoom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 13549 times:

Quoting TAP340 (Reply 10):
Take the Dodge Viper for example: It has a 8.3 liters and produces 500hp!!! That is less hp per liter than my mom's Saab 9.5! Now take an European car with a similar engine: The Veyron. It has 8 liters and produces over 1000hp! That is the double! European optimization in a nut shell.

The Viper is made by Daimler Chrysler, a European company.  Smile

Seriously, you can't take an automobile example and extrapolate to airplanes.


User currently offlineTAP340 From Portugal, joined Oct 2004, 102 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 13416 times:

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 12):
The Viper is made by Daimler Chrysler, a European company.

Seriously, you can't take an automobile example and extrapolate to airplanes.

True, but: "Completely redesigned a year ago, the Dodge Viper continues to symbolize extreme performance and extreme attitude. Blending brute power with classic yet outrageous styling, the Dodge Viper SRT-10 retains its title as the Ultimate American Sports Car - and as the icon of the Dodge brand."

But if you want to be pedantic: Shelby GT500 500hp in a 5.4L; M5 575hp in a 5L

Furthermore, I was not extrapolating to airplanes, I was just trying to make a point about the main difference between American and European engineering. Anyway, apreciated the comment!


User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 60
Reply 13, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 13367 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD DATABASE EDITOR




Quoting Ukair (Reply 7):
This just goes to show that winglets are nothing more than a passing fad, an aviation fashion accessory if you will.

Total crap. If you think, in your opinion, that winglets are a passing fad, that's one thing. Professing this as fact, however, is absolutely ridiculous.



2H4





Intentionally Left Blank
User currently offlineOldAeroGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3423 posts, RR: 67
Reply 14, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 13336 times:

Quoting TAP340 (Reply 10):
We optimize, you build large.

How do you explain the size of the A380 wing then?



Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
User currently offlineDank From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 866 posts, RR: 16
Reply 15, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 13334 times:

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 6):
Same problem with the A380 and why they couldn't put winglets on that. They would have to strengthen the wing even more.

I think it has a lot more to do with the fact that the wingspan is already at 79.8m, putting regular wingtips on it would have not allowed the plane to fit into an 80m box.

cheers.


User currently offlinePVG From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2004, 722 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 13311 times:

Quoting TAP340 (Reply 10):
This is the typical difference between American engineering and European engineering. We optimize, you build large. Take the Dodge Viper for example: It has a 8.3 liters and produces 500hp!!! That is less hp per liter than my mom's Saab 9.5! Now take an European car with a similar engine: The Veyron. It has 8 liters and produces over 1000hp! That is the double! European optimization in a nut shell. In cars it is stupid, but in planes, as you have proven, it is worth the initial price.

A reasonable analogy IMHO!


User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 17, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 13308 times:

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 9):
Wrong. The -400 has an entirely new wing.

How new? Granted, part of that could be the winglets and the wingbox with the current wing to body fairing which was introduced on late built -300s, but I don't see what's so new about the 744's wing? For example, it still retains the old slats (are those Kruger Flaps?) and the triple slotted flaps and doesn't have, what could be considered now as Boeing widebody standard, double slotted inboard and one slotted outboard flaps and the slats similar to those of the 767 or 777.


User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 60
Reply 18, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 13308 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD DATABASE EDITOR




Quoting Dank (Reply 16):
I think it has a lot more to do with the fact that the wingspan is already at 79.8m, putting regular wingtips on it would have not allowed the plane to fit into an 80m box.

Actually, the primary reason for the A320-style wingtips is to reduce wing bending moments.



2H4





Intentionally Left Blank
User currently offlineGlom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2809 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 13262 times:

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 9):
They are evolving. Boeing raked wing tips are the latest evolution of the winglets

Yes, yes. Raked wingtips are good. That's why all this talk about A350s and 787s is all stupid, when we know that aviation achieved perfection in 2002 with the rollout of the 777-300ER.


User currently offlineRJ777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1753 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 13169 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Not to turn this into another A vs. B war, but it looks like this is yet ANOTHER thing Boeing does better!

User currently offlineWMUPilot From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 1473 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 13162 times:

RUMOR: B6 May Convert Some 320 Deliveries To 319's (by JerseyGuy Sep 25 2006 in Civil Aviation)

The word was out on flyertalk on the 25th of september and nobody believed it. Adds some credit to the fact that JetBlue knew about this before hand and is looking at 319s for transcon flights!



JetBlue - Bringing humanity back to air travel
User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 23
Reply 22, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 13093 times:

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 6):
A high up former engineer with northwest was in a meeting with my roommate during his internship and was saying that a 10 year old 737 has the same reliability as a brand new A320.

Is that why he's a former NW engineer? I bet, the NW A320 fleet has become a lot more reliable since he left.  duck 



SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
User currently offlineKatekebo From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 702 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 13061 times:

Quoting TAP340 (Reply 10):
This is the typical difference between American engineering and European engineering.

Have you ever owned an American car? Most Europeans talk with their a**es instead of their brains when it comes to American cars. They have this perceived air of superiority because they don't know what they are talking about. In my well-over-a-million kilometers driving life, I have owned:
- European cars: BMW, Opel, Renault, Fiat, VW
- American cars: Ford (several models)
- Japanese cars: Toyota, Nissan, Suzuki

The best cars are, without contest, Japanse, followed by Americans, with Europeans last. Any Toyota or American Ford will outlast a BMW - easily. Toyota engines are at least one generation ahead in terms of technology compared with anything that European cars offer in similar price range (ALL Toyotas have VVTi engines, tell me how many European economy cars come with equivalent technology? Yes you can get it in a Porsche or a BMW, but what about a cheap compact or economy family car?). On top of that European cars polute more - don't believe? - check this study commissioned by EU government that compares motor vehicle standards of Europe, USA and Japan - link attached. Not only the standards for new vehicles are tighter in the US, the cars must be quaranteed to maintain these standards for 8 years.
http://www.cemt.org/online/council/2000/CM0006Fe.pdf
An before you make any statement about my nationality based on the flag next to my name, let me tell you that I'm EU citizen, currently living in the US (and hence the flag). By profession I'm a mechanical engineer with 20 years experience, and yes, I have professional experience with car industry.

When in comes to design optimization, American engineering is as good, if not better, that European. Some examples:
- B737 models are lighter (empty weight) than equivalent A32x models
- B777 is much lighter than equivalent size A340

There is no "fat" in American design, on the contrary, if anything, Boeing airplanes are more optimized (lighter) than equivalent Airbus models.

[Edited 2006-10-07 05:14:32]

User currently offlineConfuscius From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 3825 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 13016 times:

...why do you think Airbus puts "wingtip fences" on their A320s--to make them look fugly?

Nope, so mechanics won't fall off the wingtip.  Wink



Ain't I a stinker?
25 Post contains images Stitch : I'm not sure saving money is a "passing fad". Do note the Veyron is a W-16 vs. the V-10 in the Viper and the Veyron also has four turbochargers where
26 BoomBoom : So which planes are analogous to the Viper and Veyron?
27 Post contains images Tom_EDDF : Agreed on the Japenese. In Europe I owned Nissans, several Volkswagens and now an Audi. I spend a lot of my time in the US, and have driven an 05 Vol
28 Usair320 : I am honestly happy about this as an Airbus guy. I always thought winglets looked better on Boeing(737/57).But sad as this is a sign of how bad airbus
29 Ha763 : No. The blended winglets were first only offered on the BBJ help improve performance and to differentiate the BBJ from a regular 737NG. Only after th
30 Post contains images PlaneHunter : Really - so how many times do they break every month? Source? Sure, I'm only wondering how a company with "better" planes was overtaken by the the ot
31 HB88 : Excuse my language, but this post has to take the prize for the most inaccurate, opinionated piece of crap I've read on a.net for a while. Where do y
32 Skyexramper : Give it time, I'm sure Aviation Partners was just waiting for this momment to steal the spotlight.
33 SK736 : Much more likely to be that Airbus wings are better than Boeing wings and don't need to have enhancements fitted. As you don't know what was included
34 ZeroTwoGrass : The original 737NGs required strengthening to the ends of the wings. This is before Boeing invested in Aviation Partners Boeing (just Aviation Partne
35 Post contains images Wing : Based on the fact that you work at Disneyland, I can guess you must be the "Goofy" by looking at your comments.
36 Post contains links FlyUSCG : allow me to correct myself, he was a former CHIEF-engineer and since leaving the company (for whatever reason), he has now become an engineer with a
37 Kappel : Well, not really, the a343 is much lighter than the 772ER, as is the a333. The a345 and a346 are indeed heavier than their Boeing counterparts.
38 FlyUSCG : Fair enough that that statement wasn't the best. However, they are obviously flawed whether it be in construction or in cost to convert and Airbus fa
39 PlaneHunter : If "plain and simple" is your only argument, then search for a better one... Of course you need to have a quality product in order to sell it. Have y
40 Alessandro : Can you explain why the brand new Boeing 737 crashed in Brazil and the SAM hit A300 didn´t in Bagdad?
41 PlaneHunter : To be fair, we still don't know much about the GOL crash, so let's not bring it into any discussion. It's very unlikely anyway that crash is somehow
42 Gary2880 : My guess is to hold the middle bit with the people up in the air?
43 Post contains images AutoThrust :    LMAO, I never readed such a stupid post. Lol how funny. The A320 Wing is so good efficient (unlike to the 737 Wing), that a winglet doesnt make
44 Post contains images Glideslope : LOL. I'd say the A350. A380, and A400 point that out clearly. Next example please........
45 PlaneHunter : What exactly? PH
46 David L : I'm so glad others beat me to dealing with that one! And that has exactly what to do with A320 winglets not being economically worthwhile?
47 HB88 : Indeed you are sort of correct. The winglets failed to provide a sufficient degree of advantage compared to equivalent designs so were downselected.
48 Sabenapilot : Sorry? Airbus was asked by a customer (Jetblue) to investigate and test whether retro-fitting their A320s with winglets would have similar benefits t
49 Post contains images AutoThrust : You hit the nail on his head. I couldnt agree more. Maybe someone mind the A330/A350 have / will have Winglets. That means the A330 Wing could be imp
50 Sabenapilot : I don't know if you know this, but the A330 actually has winglets mainly because the A340 needs them. Originally, the well-known Airbus wing fences (
51 ClassicLover : What is that supposed to prove? The VC10 regularly landed at less than 115kt and it was a 1960's aircraft.
52 AutoThrust : I didnt know Airbus considered the A330 without the winglets thanks for info, however thats what i meant, Airbus wouldnt keep or added to the A330 if
53 EGNR : One of th many real reasons for not fitting winglets (rather that wingtip fences) to the A380 wing is that it would take the wingspan outside of the
54 Post contains links Leelaw : Where does this leave Mr. Leahy's proposal to bring forth an A320E(nhanced): ...Airbus chief operating officer customers John Leahy does not believe
55 Katekebo : LOL, well, SUV and trucks are cars, too, no? Agree, the Taurus was a crap. It's a comparison between the best engineering products that both continen
56 Zeke : The problem I see with winglets is that over time an aircrafts performance factor increases. So over 5 years an aircrafts performance factor with wing
57 Thorny : Sounds like a used car salesman. Which is it... "AS MUCH AS" or "OR MORE"?
58 Usair320 : Well I am not Anti A at all. As you can see in my post I actully prefer Airbus although I have no problems with B. And I admit I did sorta jump to co
59 OldAeroGuy : Then the wing was build over size and not optimized. TAP340 claimed this was a characteristic of American design while Europeans always went for the
60 2H4 : What wings, in your opinion, stand out as notable examples? 2H4
61 Flylku : You must me much smarter than the folks at Southwest who continue to invest in this passing fancy. Future technologies and know-how will supplant the
62 Justloveplanes : Has anyone mentioned/know how much 737 winglets cost per plane? WN says they save 92K gallons of fuel. I'd be interested to figure the years to recove
63 Zeke : Yes misrigging, missing/leaking seals, mismatched surfaces, skin roughness, skin dents, joint gaps, paint pealing, engines etc etc etc all adds up an
64 Flylku : Honestly, I have heard it from several mechanics at airlines with both 320's and 737's (and other Boeing and Airbus models) that the Boeings are buil
65 Post contains images BoomBoom : After flight testing on a 737-800 showed they improved mileage by as much as 6 percent or more on long-range flight, I assume the "or more" applies t
66 AA777223 : God bless you son. You are about to get FLAMED! I hardly think a W16 engine with quad turbochargers, is all that similar to the V10 in the viper. Alt
67 Post contains images Blue_Angel : I heard a couple of years ago that the price difference for a newly built 737-800 w/o winglets and one equipped with was $500K myself... And I think
68 Post contains links BoomBoom : "We will give Airbus the means to win the battle against Boeing," former French prime minister Lionel Jospin once said." http://www.washingtonpost.co
69 Coa747 : This is just another example of how Airbus has lost its innovative edge. Boeing invested money in the blended winglet program at a time when oil price
70 HAWK21M : Guess the Weight offset the Performance benifits. regds MEL
71 Breiz : Interesting statement, or is it an opinion? Would make British Aerospace which has designed and manufactured all Airbus' wings very happy. Examples o
72 Areopagus : That's an odd request, considering how many Germans were in positions of responsibility for the Saturn launch vehicles. But how about Concorde? Not a
73 OldAeroGuy : But an aged airplane with winglets will have a drag (and fuel burn) benefit compared to an aged airplane without winglets. Again the primary reason a
74 Post contains images Thorny : I don't. What does the "as much as" apply to? The quote only refers to long-range flight. Since there is no comma there, it looks to me that the quot
75 Sabenapilot : What are you talking about? In case you've missed it, Airbus HAS fitted winglets to the company demonstrator (and no, the wing did not break because
76 OldAeroGuy : But they were US citizens at the time.
77 Sabenapilot : So intelligence comes with the passport you hold in your pocket? Strange, I've always thought it had something to do with the brains in your head...
78 Post contains images Tancrede : Do you know that you are such a joke.
79 Post contains images BoomBoom : OMG!!! The Seattle PI left out a comma!!! I suggest you take it up with them if this is such a burning issue for you. What about your weasel wording
80 OldAeroGuy : Why be so obtuse? The question was about where engineering efforts originated. The Apollo program was funded by the US government, just as the Concor
81 PlaneHunter : So what? That doesn't say anything about the quality of the aircraft. PH
82 A342 : You said the A380 wing was oversized for the original aircraft A380-800. I guess that also means they have more drag than necessary, right ? But yet,
83 BoomBoom : But it does explain how Boeing was overtaken by Airbus (at least in the short term).
84 OldAeroGuy : How do you prove that you are right?
85 Molykote : Although your generalization is somewhat accurate, the Viper was always intended to be a retro toy that deliberately shunned technology.
86 Areopagus : I was responding to Katekebo's suggestion that American engineering is better, or embraces a different philosophy, than European engineering, togethe
87 A342 : How do you prove that I'm wrong ? Maybe I should have said: It isn't achieved by disproportionally high cruise thrust.
88 OldAeroGuy : The fact is that long range cruise speed for an airliner has little to do with cruise thrust setting. It is more related to wing drag rise characteri
89 A342 : Thanks for your answer. You certainly understand a lot more about aerodynamics than I do. But to quote your examples: even the 772ER with its relativ
90 Rheinbote : Second that. Someone suggested to me that wing area was upped late in A380 design to achieve Heathrow QC2 classification (by virtue of low approach s
91 PlaneHunter : Maybe - but my point was that Airbus would have never overtaken Boeing by offering products of lower quality, as a member has suggested. We didn't di
92 Post contains images Usnseallt82 : Wow....I was going to stay out of this, but I had to comment on a few of these posts. Note that these are my personal opinions... The A330 would like
93 AeroWeanie : The 737NGs built before a certain cn need reinforcement to take winglets. Aircraft after that cn have the reinforcment built in on the assembly line.
94 PolymerPlane : Hmm... Wrong guys... just wrong logic. The comparison whether winglet increases efficiency in the design of Boeing and Airbus does not tell anything
95 OldAeroGuy : Airplane efficiency/range capability is determined by L/D, TSFC, Cruise Speed, OEW and MTOW. Minimizing wing area (increasing wing loading) has the p
96 Zeke : My thoughts were more practical....i.e. in my view it would be wise to build your route network over an average aged aircrafts performance (your "car
97 OldAeroGuy : And this is exactly what experienced airlines do when evaluating an airplane on their route network. However, an aged airplane with winglets has bett
98 ContnlEliteCMH : Wow. Take it from a guy who studied internal combustion in college: You may wish to lower your nose; I can see all the way to your brain, and I'm not
99 Post contains links Leelaw : "Airbus rethinks plan to put winglets on A320" http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...+plan+to+put+winglets+on+A320.html
100 Lemurs : Of course, a vastly disproportionate number of the greatest theoretical minds who worked on the Manhattan project were Jews who were driven out of Eu
101 Post contains links AirMailer : TAP, Ive ridden in a Viper, and I've ridden in a Panoz, and let me tell you that the Panoz wins hands down (I even like the styling of the GTLM bette
102 HB88 : The difference was negligible.
103 AirFrnt : That's a rather strange accusation for the Americans (who after all build the 737, and are still using the 707's crosssection) versus the Europeans (
104 Katekebo : Comparing the Viper to the Veyron is simply stupid. Engineering is the art optimizing the balance between functionality, performance and affordabilit
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Skywest To Get A320s posted Wed Aug 9 2006 10:22:51 by Flying-Tiger
B6 To Lease 5 A320s To Blue Wings posted Fri Jul 21 2006 15:29:30 by Lowecur
B6 Reaches Preliminary Agreement To Sell 5 A320s posted Thu Jun 15 2006 13:09:26 by FA4B6
What Airbus Needs To Do To Break Even With A370(?) posted Wed Jun 14 2006 13:24:54 by FWAERJ
Copa Add To 738 & EMB 190 Orders posted Thu Apr 20 2006 16:21:14 by PanAm_DC10
AC's A321 Y Seating Compared To A319/A320s? posted Thu Apr 13 2006 19:25:45 by Samurai 777
F9's Latest Plane Order To Include A320s posted Wed Mar 1 2006 17:34:29 by PHLBOS