Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Airbus Faces Fresh Hit Over Super-jumbo  
User currently offlineWindshear From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 2330 posts, RR: 11
Posted (7 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 12982 times:

http://business.guardian.co.uk/story/0,,1890098,00.html

Quote:
Emirates, the leading launch customer for the Airbus A380 super jumbo, is demanding £150m in compensation for delays to the crisis-hit programme... Virgin Atlantic is claiming more than £20m in compensation for delays in its order of six A380s, while Australian carrier Qantas has announced it wants £40m.

http://online.wsj.com/google_login.h...586036.html%3Fmod%3Dgooglenews_wsj

Quote:
Jumbo Worries at Airbus: Virgin Atlantic will consider terminating orders for Airbus's superjumbo A380, following last week's news that deliveries will be delayed another year. Airbus could be forced into costly concessions to keep customers from rival aircraft maker Boeing

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/08/bu...s.html?_r=1&ref=europe&oref=slogin

Quote:
Airbus, which is struggling with delays and cost overruns in the production of its A380 superjumbo jet, was caught in the awkward position late Friday of having to deny media reports that its new chief executive has resigned... ources within the companies reported a major rift between Mr. Streiff and his managers at EADS, whose support for him is flagging. The friction may lead to Mr. Streiff’s resignation, which had not occurred as of late Saturday, the sources said.

This is growing increasingly bad, I know some referred this crisis to that of Boeing's '97 crisis, but this is going to take a lot of effort.

I am confident, that in time, we'll see a much more productive and well functioning Airbus, but only G-d knows what it will take Airbus to get there, and how long it will take.

Boaz.


"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 1, posted (7 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 12958 times:

I don't think we have to open yet another thread about the pains Airbus is going through!
Everybody here on a.net is fully aware that the shit has hit the fan for Airbus and EADS.I don't see any reason to open another line of negative news accumulation on this forum.Those who have expressed their opinion on how bad things have been managed in Toulouse and Amsterdam have done so -why incease the pain to turn the knive in the wound?



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineMPDPilot From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 991 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 12950 times:

just out of curiousity what is the "fresh hit" so far everything I have read has already been posted. I do think your right though, airbus will recover it is just a question of when.


One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
User currently offlinePVG From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2004, 724 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (7 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 12926 times:

The difference between Airbus and Boeing is that Boeing made tough decisions, cleaned house, and stuck to their disciplined position of not investing in a new program until they had "game changer" type technology to offer the market, which has gotten them to where they stand today.

I don't sense that Airbus has the will to do what's going to be necessary. What I do see is that eventually the governments may just have to bail out the company as the job losses in both Germany and France are not politically palatable. So, they write off the crap and it goes in the governments' balance sheet. Otherwise, I just don't see the will to take their medicine here! Might be wrong, but that's my take.


User currently offlineWindshear From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 2330 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (7 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 12914 times:

Quoting PVG (Reply 3):
I don't sense that Airbus has the will to do what's going to be necessary. What I do see is that eventually the governments may just have to bail out the company as the job losses in both Germany and France are not politically palatable. So, they write off the crap and it goes in the governments' balance sheet. Otherwise, I just don't see the will to take their medicine here! Might be wrong, but that's my take.

Yes I see your point, and perhaps you are right. I am thinking about the third article I quote, the one about the rift between Mr.Streiff and EADS.

I actually thought the new guys from Germany, would help get this baby on the right track. EADS might just not have the "will" that you also speak of.

Boaz.



"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
User currently offlineOHLHD From Finland, joined Dec 2004, 3962 posts, RR: 25
Reply 5, posted (7 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 12855 times:

Emirates, the leading launch customer for the Airbus A380 super jumbo, is demanding £150m in compensation for delays to the crisis-hit programme.
Tim Clark, president of Dubai-based airline Emirates, which has ordered 45 A380s, made the claim in talks with Airbus management last week following the announcement of a third postponement of deliveries of the world's largest passenger jet. It is also understood that Sir Richard Branson's Virgin Atlantic is claiming more than £20m in compensation for delays in its order of six A380s, while Australian carrier Qantas has announced it wants £40m.


I want $ 100m too, for reading soooo many A380 threads recently!!!!  Big grin


So we get to see some real money figuers now.


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25169 posts, RR: 85
Reply 6, posted (7 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 12840 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting OHLHD (Reply 5):
I want $ 100m too, for reading soooo many A380 threads recently!

You've actually read them all? Wow, you deserve $100 million.

But I think Emirates has more chance of getting the loot - a pretty reasonable amount, given the circumstances.

 Smile

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinePVG From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2004, 724 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (7 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 12840 times:

Quoting Windshear (Reply 4):
I actually thought the new guys from Germany, would help get this baby on the right track. EADS might just not have the "will" that you also speak of.

Still don't understand why you would bring in an outsider and then expect him to run the company the same way that the guys you just fired were? My guess is the whole corporate structure of this company has been living in LALA land for the past few years and they were really believing the press releases issued by their own PR dept.! The guys who got fired were essentially scapegoats, the problems here run much deeper than those 2 guys!


User currently offlineSingapore_Air From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13742 posts, RR: 19
Reply 8, posted (7 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 12791 times:

Quoting Windshear (Thread starter):
while Australian carrier Qantas has announced it wants £40m.

I am surprised that The Guardian was so careless. The Australian carrier actually announced that it wants around half of what it got last time, which is around A$52 million / £20.6 million / US$ 38.6 million.



Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 22
Reply 9, posted (7 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 12731 times:

Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 8):
The Australian carrier actually announced that it wants around half of what it got last time, which is around A$52 million / £20.6 million / US$ 38.6 million.

Indeed here's a link and a piece of the article.

http://www.thewest.com.au/default.aspx?MenuID=33&ContentID=8723

Qantas chief financial officer Peter Gregg said yesterday the company was in negotiations with Airbus over compensation for the late delivery of its second lot of six A380s.

Qantas reported $104 million in compensation for delays of the first six aircraft in its profit to June 30. Mr Gregg said further claims would be made.

"There’s more to come but not the same sort of number seen in the past. It will be less than half that sum,” he said.

Discussions between Qantas and Airbus were focusing on trade-offs rather than direct cash payments, he said. The trade-offs are likely to include discounts on the price of aircraft or access to more A380s if Qantas decides to increase its order.

Deutsche Bank analyst Jason Bloom said the delay was unlikely to badly affect Qantas and compensation levels of about $50 million might cover any damage.



SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
User currently offlineCharliejag1 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 239 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 12722 times:

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 1):
I don't think we have to open yet another thread about the pains Airbus is going through!

I don't see a problem . . .


User currently offlineSingapore_Air From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13742 posts, RR: 19
Reply 11, posted (7 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 12700 times:

Quoting Charliejag1 (Reply 10):
I don't see a problem . . .

Me neither.

Thanks Manni for the article. I was too lazy to find one.



Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
User currently offlineOHLHD From Finland, joined Dec 2004, 3962 posts, RR: 25
Reply 12, posted (7 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 12700 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 6):
You've actually read them all? Wow, you deserve $100 million.

I have to admit that I did not. I am not a FREAK!!!!! Big grin


User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 13, posted (7 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 12484 times:

Quoting Windshear (Reply 4):
I actually thought the new guys from Germany

What 'new guys from Germany'? Thomas Enders has been with the company for quite a while - and neither one of the 'new guys', namely Louis Gallois and Christian Streiff, are German...



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineArt From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3382 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (7 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 12437 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 6):
Quoting OHLHD (Reply 5):
I want $ 100m too, for reading soooo many A380 threads recently!

You've actually read them all? Wow, you deserve $100 million.

I must have read half of them. I hope I qualify for my $50 million. Does a.net have enough to pay me or will they have to seek government assistance to get themselves out of this tight corner? Smile


User currently offlineWindshear From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 2330 posts, RR: 11
Reply 15, posted (7 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 12300 times:

Quoting PVG (Reply 7):
Still don't understand why you would bring in an outsider and then expect him to run the company the same way that the guys you just fired were?

Me neither, and thinking about Foregeard's former (arrogant) PR strategies, I guess the lala land theory is not so far fetched after all.

Quoting Leskova (Reply 13):
Christian Streiff,

Sorry thought Streiff was German, my bad, but where is he from then?

Boaz.



"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 16, posted (7 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 12267 times:

Quoting Windshear (Reply 15):
Sorry thought Streiff was German, my bad, but where is he from then?

He's French.

http://www.airbus.com/en/corporate/people/christian_streiff.html



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineMD80Nut From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 922 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (7 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 10765 times:

I haven't participated in the "Airbus A380 Problems" threads much because the whole subject is so unpleasant. As an aviation enthusiast and fan of all airplane builders, it pains me to see a great commercial jet manufacturer like Airbus in such dire straits. I want to see the A380 flying around and maybe fly in one someday. The problems with the A380 are bad enough, but to see Airbus's management in such disarray at such a critical time when they need to project a sense of purpose and a plan to get the Whale Jet back on track makes it worst.

I have confidence Airbus will make it through and eventually be stronger for it, but they really need to get their team working together to solve the problems NOW. If Mr. Streiff resigns as a result of friction with management, it would send the worst possible signal at the worst possible time about the management situation. I would suspect we'd then see these airlines really rethink the wisdom of sticking with the A380 for their future plans regardless of how sweet a deal Airbus offers.

By the way, I understand how some people may be tired of reading A380 threads. But this is one of the biggest stories in years in commercial aviation and it's still unfolding with an uncertain outcome. There's is a lot to talk about!

Cheers, Ralph



Fly Douglas Jets DC-8 / DC-9 / DC-10 / MD80 / MD11 / MD90 / 717
User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30918 posts, RR: 87
Reply 18, posted (7 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 10661 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Well this is new information about compensation, which I find helpful because we've seen figures from $100 to $100 million additional discounts per airframe bandied about.

So it looks like that even though "contractual damage caps" have been reached for many of the A380 customers, additional damages are being requested, but those requests are not in the scores of millions per frame.


User currently offlineNcelhr From Vatican City, joined Jul 2006, 358 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 9493 times:

Quoting PVG (Reply 3):
The difference between Airbus and Boeing is that Boeing made tough decisions, cleaned house, and stuck to their disciplined position of not investing in a new program until they had "game changer" type technology to offer the market, which has gotten them to where they stand today.

I don't sense that Airbus has the will to do what's going to be necessary. What I do see is that eventually the governments may just have to bail out the company as the job losses in both Germany and France are not politically palatable. So, they write off the crap and it goes in the governments' balance sheet. Otherwise, I just don't see the will to take their medicine here! Might be wrong, but that's my take.

You are absolutely correct on this. And consider this further: perhaps this whole crisis is actually *needed* to re-structure the company. There is a lot of resistance from those currently in place at various posts (both in the company but also politically around the company) to change, but it is required.

It is generally agreed that a lot of things have to change w.r.t. the company's structure - even going as deeply as flying fuselages and shipping huge parts etc. around. The loss made on logistics is huge! Of course, the path taken was not chosen out of efficiency but out of political manoeuvers and historical events. Who are we trying to kid that it costs nothing to transport huge bits of aircraft through villages in the French countryside?

So in order to streamline such a company you really need a major major problem for everybody to agree to do something. A real sense of urgency, a sense of "do it or lose everything", a sense of emergency needs to be created. And this might well be what is happening. Don't be shocked if this could lead to Airbus being close to complete collapse. The whole process, from manufacturing to decision making to management, has to be re-designed because there are deep deep problems inherent to the company which will only get worse and worse once full production of the A380 and other planes will go ahead. Airbus is about to embark on full scale manufacturing of the largest aicraft they have ever produced. They are about to embark on manufacturing the A400 for military contracts. They are about to embark on another huge huge programme for the A350 (or whatever they'll call it) and they need to have a structure that is competitive with Boeing's structure before they grow and before it goes out of control on them. What's a few millions lost now in compensation when it might cost billions later to put things right.

Many mistakes have crept into the structure as a product of political evolution as well as penny-pinching and over-growth in other areas, with bad communication between departments etc. It is now time to put the cards on the table and clear all this mess up before even having to pretend being able to ship out A380s. If at all, the project has shown which seams would break in the organisational structure and now it's time to work on them and come up with Airbus Mk2. Only then will Airbus have a chance to compete with Boeing's latest product offering and only then will the next commercial battle be played on an even field.

A revolution is what is needed at Airbus and this is hopefully what is happening.


User currently offlineRIXrat From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 788 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 9465 times:

Strange that there has been silence from AF and LH regarding compensation claims because of the delays in the delivery of the A380. Not much from SQ either who dropped a bundle with all their ads and billboards saying they would be the first to fly the plane in 2006.

User currently offlineGoAibusGo From Netherlands, joined Mar 2001, 275 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (7 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 8288 times:

*My first post in an A380 thread*

These airlines that claim compansation, should they then stick with their order or can they cancel their order later aswell? If not we can see who stays with their orginal order and who may cancel!

Thanks very much.

[Edited 2006-10-08 21:53:59]

User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 22, posted (7 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 8194 times:

Quoting GoAibusGo (Reply 21):
These airlines that claim compansation, should they then stick with their order or can they cancel their order later aswell? If not we can see who stays with their orginal order and may cancel!

The answer is most likely "it depends". It depends on the language of the sales agreement. I am reading where Airbus is at the limit of their obligation to pay compensation on the delays to some of the customers (sorry no link). However, Airbus could go ahead and agree to pay anyway just to keep them happy. If they opted not to pay anymore, then the customers could either accept the delay, file a claim in a court, or cancel--in whole or in part.

IMO, none of this is making the customer's who ordered these aircraft look like sage and wise businessmen (or businesswomen, as the case may be!). It isn't a good idea to embarass one's customers. Not ever....



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineBringiton From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 866 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 8194 times:

Emirates Says Report of A380 Compensation Is `Bunkum' -

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...100&sid=ahqNqslLtV6o&refer=germany


User currently offlineBoomBoom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 8071 times:

So will Germany and France be willing to put up launch aid for future Airbus projects if it doesn't result in jobs for their citizens?

25 Stitch : It may indeed be "bunkum" or it could be true, and EK just doesn't want other A380 customers to know what they're asking for (or getting) so as to mai
26 Bringiton : Probably not(atleast to the same extent) but the point of the entire exercize is for airbus to be less reliant on the launch aid and deal with the ind
27 Post contains images Thebry :
28 PVG : So, how is it that the general consensus until about 18 months ago was that Airbus's manufacturing methods were more efficient and lower cost than Bo
29 Aztec01 : Is it possible the reason AF and LH have been essentially silent is that they had already been informed of the delay and worked out a separate agreeme
30 N328KF : Well, Lufthansa has no formal government ties. Air France KLM does, but it's a minority stake. But I don't see much advantage to either by doing this
31 Hamster : The planes are already flying lets not forget that. There are some technical snafu's but that comes with the territory in any dream. Large corporation
32 Post contains images Mig21UMD : I would rather see more 727s or DC10s flying around and really hope I still might get the chance to fly in one of these aircraft one day. This is whe
33 AerLingusA330 : I wouldn't be surprised if the 787 is in full production by the time the A380 flies its delivery flight.
34 Richie87 : These problems with the new A380 in production and delivery difficulties should not be a HUGE SURPRISE to anybody, really. If the company engaged in t
35 Aztec01 : Thanks for responding, here's my thought... I won't pretend to understand the complexity and intricacies of this whole A380 mess, but Airbus seems to
36 Jasond : This may sound 'a bit out there' but I was curious about what happens if airlines do cancel their orders. Does this mean that (aside from obviously lo
37 Post contains images Leskova : That problem is much more apparent on a.net than within airlines... though certainly the strange tactic of hiding the A380's delays and then presenti
38 Stitch : Depends on the contract. Evidently some of the contracts have very liberal cancellation clauses. Some may have less liberal ones and others may have
39 Lumberton : They will be left with gaping holes in their business plans. IMO, they committed to the A380; there is no alternative given the 748 EIS and the 777 b
40 Starrion : They're talking about different processes. The main Airbus plants manufacturing the A320 and the A330/340 -are- very efficient. If you disregard the
41 AirSpare : Bad analogy, "wedded", my last wedding was a good idea then, with 20-20 vision looking back, it was a disaster. It was cheaper to dump her then to ke
42 Post contains images Lumberton : Perhaps I should have said "stuck with"?
43 Ken777 : I wouldn't be surprised if AF and LH have agreements in place that they get compensation equal to the highest paid to any other 380 customer, elimina
44 Ncelhr : Not across all models. Single aisle aircraft: yes. A330/340 more or less, but A380 is an absolute disaster. A single assembly line runs super smoothl
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Airbus Warns Of Delay For Super-jumbo posted Thu May 5 2005 04:52:29 by Blasphemystic
Airbus Faces Environmental Protests Over A380 posted Fri Feb 16 2001 14:46:51 by B757300
Airbus Says Super Jumbo Will Cost Less... posted Fri Mar 9 2001 17:14:08 by Cruising
Airbus Parent Eads Pounded Over A380 Delays posted Wed Oct 4 2006 18:19:59 by BoomBoom
Airbus Faces Tough Midmarket Choices posted Mon Jun 12 2006 07:47:50 by BoomBoom
Airbus's Self-inflicted Wound Over China Plant? posted Sat Apr 15 2006 16:19:45 by Halibut
Last ANA Boeing 747SR-100 Super Jumbo Retires posted Fri Mar 10 2006 12:22:57 by Leelaw
Boeing And There New Super Jumbo. posted Sat Jan 22 2005 01:46:05 by Bmi330
MIA Ready To Handle "Super Jumbo Jet"... posted Wed Jan 19 2005 21:45:14 by MIASkies
Airbus Sues American Airlines Over Flt 587 posted Thu Mar 20 2003 23:50:03 by Racko