747400sp From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3182 posts, RR: 3 Posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1791 times:
Bombardier is studying a new sleek and elegant C series. It has large windows around the size of those windows on the Boeing 787. It will be the first-fly-by-wire regional jet. It pretty long range for a regional jet, for example it could from Miami FL to Portland OR or from San Diego CA to Bangor, Maine. The C series has a 2-2 in business and a 2-3 layout in economy, the C series also burn 23% less fuel than a Boeing 737 or Airbus A320. So what have you herd about the Bombardier C series?
KSUpilot From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 656 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1780 times:
Wait the C-Series is coming back? I don't think anyone saw this once coming.
KSUpilot From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 656 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1729 times:
Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 3): If it is, folks I know at Bombardier haven't said boo about it. Last I heard is it was a dead project until at least mid-07
There has been no talk at all. The only talk of a rebirth as been on A.net and that has been pure speculation.
This one I will believe it when I see it. In the tE200 thread there is strong doubt that Embraer could beat Boeing and Airbus. How could Bombardier even hope to beat them. Then again, do they really have a choice? The CRJ series cannot compete with the E-Jets. And disrect competition with the E-Jets is not possible either, too little too late.
They can either sit and watch the CRJ-900X orders slowly come in or cross their fingers and hope the C-Series beats Boeing.
I think Embraer could pull it off, but I am not so sure about Bombardier.
WARNING! CRAZY SCENARIO BELOW!!!!:
Many have said Embraer would not build an E200 without some sort of a partner, whether it be China or Russia. If Airbus and Boeing are Embraer and Bombardier's target, they could always combine forces for this new project.
Osiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3175 posts, RR: 29 Reply 5, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1710 times:
Quoting KSUpilot (Reply 4): Many have said Embraer would not build an E200 without some sort of a partner, whether it be China or Russia. If Airbus and Boeing are Embraer and Bombardier's target, they could always combine forces for this new project.
B buying B's commercial business wouldn't surprise me. Might be a good out for Bombardier corporately as well. Keep the bus jet stuff and dump the RJ portion.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
DfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 755 posts, RR: 54 Reply 6, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1678 times:
Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter): Bombardier is studying a new sleek and elegant C series
Unless you know something we don't, this project is still languishing and unlikely to ever be launched.
Many have said Embraer would not build an E200 without some sort of a partner, whether it be China or Russia. If Airbus and Boeing are Embraer and Bombardier's target, they could always combine forces for this new project.
What makes the E200 or C-Series unlikely is the fact that a new +100 seat jet requires significantly improved propulsion to remain a viable competitor against whatever is coming down the pipe from Airbus and Boeing.
Simply pooling the resources of Embraer and Bombradier does not necessarily make the projects more viable. It might however, convince the OEMs to offer a more attractive engine than just a PW6000 derivative.
Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 5): B buying B's commercial business wouldn't surprise me. Might be a good out for Bombardier corporately as well. Keep the bus jet stuff and dump the RJ portion.
When you say "B buying B's commercial business," do you mean to say Boeing aquiring the Bombradier line?
I would doubt this scenario given that Bombradier approached Boeing about a C-series joint venture, and Boeing turned them down.
Osiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3175 posts, RR: 29 Reply 7, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1667 times:
Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 6): When you say "B buying B's commercial business," do you mean to say Boeing aquiring the Bombradier line?
I would doubt this scenario given that Bombradier approached Boeing about a C-series joint venture, and Boeing turned them down.
Yes that's what I meant.. and Boeing turning down a JV on that particular plane didn't surprise me at all. I don't think Boeing is too eager (sheesh I can't type today) to go JV on anything. Sure they will partner for components, but I think there is a strong drive to keep Boeing tech know-how in house.
[Edited 2006-10-08 21:36:33]
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
Dw747400 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 1238 posts, RR: 1 Reply 8, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1645 times:
Planemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 5117 posts, RR: 35 Reply 10, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1502 times:
Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 5): B buying B's commercial business wouldn't surprise me. Might be a good out for Bombardier corporately as well. Keep the bus jet stuff and dump the RJ portion.
Will never happen. BBD depends to an inordinate degree on government support which is now getting the cold shoulder from the current government in power (PM Harper of the Conservatives).
Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 6): What makes the E200 or C-Series unlikely is the fact that a new +100 seat jet requires significantly improved propulsion to remain a viable competitor against whatever is coming down the pipe from Airbus and Boeing.
I know that this is counter intuitive to most A.netters but my perspective it that the price of oil is going to come down. How much is a guess at this point but I believe it could easily be back to the $30-$40 range. With (if?) oil at that price there really is no compelling reason to rush out with an all-new replacement for the A320 and 737.
Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 7): but I think there is a strong drive to keep Boeing tech know-how in house.
Quite the opposite... the 787's wing detail design and manufacture went to Japan. Boeing is turning itself into a large scale integrator of their high level design.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
Osiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3175 posts, RR: 29 Reply 11, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1491 times:
Quoting Planemaker (Reply 10): Will never happen. BBD depends to an inordinate degree on government support which is now getting the cold shoulder from the current government in power (PM Harper of the Conservatives).
I know I live in Canada
Quoting Planemaker (Reply 10): How much is a guess at this point but I believe it could easily be back to the $30-$40 range.
Remember you buy planes for 20 years. Today's price is of little significance. Much of the 'easy oil' has already been found and at least partially extracted. There's lots left but it's harder to get out (oil sands for example, off shore fields, etc.) I really can't see the 20 year average for oil being $30-$40.
Quoting Planemaker (Reply 10): With (if?) oil at that price there really is no compelling reason to rush out with an all-new replacement for the A320 and 737.
Sure there is.. it's called margin growth. Even if oil gets cheaper, every dollar you save is a dollar more profit. Airlines are by and large publically traded and shareholders have a voracious appetite for profits.
Quoting Planemaker (Reply 10): Quite the opposite... the 787's wing detail design and manufacture went to Japan. Boeing is turning itself into a large scale integrator of their high level design.
Yes their large scale design. As in the whole system. That's where the money is, take the parts put them together, mark them up and sell them. That's also the knowledge they would likely be sharing in this theoretical joint venture and the information I think they want to keep close to home.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
DfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 755 posts, RR: 54 Reply 12, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1485 times:
Quoting Planemaker (Reply 10): I know that this is counter intuitive to most A.netters but my perspective it that the price of oil is going to come down. How much is a guess at this point but I believe it could easily be back to the $30-$40 range
Well really, oil prices have been on a downward trend for about six months now, despite increased voilatility in the Middle East.
Last year, I would have said $100 a barrel by 2010, but I agree we could see a normalization in price. I'm not so optimistic to say $30-40, but perhaps a fluctuation within $40-60.
Quoting Planemaker (Reply 10): With (if?) oil at that price there really is no compelling reason to rush out with an all-new replacement for the A320 and 737.
Given the fact that it will be some time before engines are available anyway, lower oil prices may indeed allow the 737NG and A320 to squeek out a few more years in sales. If this remains stable, I would agree a 737 replacement is not necessary by 2012.
In that regard, the A320 Enhanced is not a bad idea at all, and I would strongly suggest Boeing do likewise.
However, I'm still convinced airlines will demand a modern replacement by 2015 regardless of oil prices.
KSUpilot From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 656 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1479 times:
Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 12): In that regard, the A320 Enhanced is not a bad idea at all, and I would strongly suggest Boeing do likewise.
However, I'm still convinced airlines will demand a modern replacement by 2015 regardless of oil prices.
If prices continue to go down, I think they may be able to squeak in one more update to the NG before finally going with an all new aircraft. 2015-2020 at the latest.
DfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 755 posts, RR: 54 Reply 14, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 1459 times:
Quoting KSUpilot (Reply 13): If prices continue to go down, I think they may be able to squeak in one more update to the NG before finally going with an all new aircraft. 2015-2020 at the latest.
Boeing will never again upgrade the 737 platform to the extent they did in 1993-1997 with the 737NG. The airframe is approaching the point of diminishing returns where few new technologies can be implemented without dramatic overhauls that would just be simpler with a new platform.
In fact, many people believe the 737NG was one generation too many. Another significant overhaul is almost totally out of the question IMO, both internally at Boeing and with customers in general. Even WN is talking as if they are ready for the 737RS to be a totally new product.
The most we will see IMO, is a possible "mid-life" upgrade to the extent that Airbus is offering with the A320-Enhanced.
If anything from the 737 line is still in production in 2020 (save for military variants), I will eat my hat!
Osiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3175 posts, RR: 29 Reply 15, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 1446 times:
Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 14): In fact, many people believe the 737NG was one generation too many. Another significant overhaul is almost totally out of the question IMO, both internally at Boeing and with customers in general. Even WN is talking as if they are ready for the 737RS to be a totally new product.
Yep the 737 has served it's time well.. I mean how many frames are we talking about. It's time to start thinking about letting the old girl rest. One thing is for sure.. nothing will EVER sell as many frames as that thing again (commercial space I'm talking about).
I tell you though, they sure don't design planes the same anymore.. look at all the 'old' stuff still in the air.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
Then you'll know that they are scrapping the TPC black hole and coming up with a transparent and more equitable R&D funding program.
Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 11): Remember you buy planes for 20 years. Today's price is of little significance. Much of the 'easy oil' has already been found and at least partially extracted. There's lots left but it's harder to get out (oil sands for example, off shore fields, etc.) I really can't see the 20 year average for oil being $30-$40.
I can quite easily for several reasons. I really believe that we are at a "tipping point" and mainly for environmental and geo-strategic reasons (or as Thomas Friedland states it, "geo-green" - the new red, white and blue), oil prices will come down to average $30-$40 as society moves away from oil and to alternatives. In fact, in 20 years time, oil could very well be lower than $30/bbl.
Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 11): Sure there is.. it's called margin growth. Even if oil gets cheaper, every dollar you save is a dollar more profit. Airlines are by and large publically traded and shareholders have a voracious appetite for profits.
But you have to weigh the cost of new aircraft (all of the costs...) over the relatively small increase in fuel savings with oil at possibly $30-$40/bbl. Boeing recently said that it is not worth it to introduce a new model for only a 10% improvement. And at 15%, the CSeries didn't get any real interest.
Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 12): Well really, oil prices have been on a downward trend for about six months now, despite increased voilatility in the Middle East.
Not really, they have been going up until just the last few weeks - funny but CNN reported that there polls say that around 40% believe that it is political manipulation just in time for the Novemeber elections.
Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 12): Last year, I would have said $100 a barrel by 2010, but I agree we could see a normalization in price. I'm not so optimistic to say $30-40, but perhaps a fluctuation within $40-60.
I agree that you could be right but I believe that we could really see an accelerating move across several fronts that will "kick America's oil addiction". The latest issue of Scientific America gives a pretty good picture of what is possible... and the only thing that is holding things back are politicians.
Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 12): In that regard, the A320 Enhanced is not a bad idea at all, and I would strongly suggest Boeing do likewise.
However, I'm still convinced airlines will demand a modern replacement by 2015 regardless of oil prices.
I agree... however, it does depend on several factors. If A and B "enhance" their narrowbodies - "mid-life upgrade", you called it (and while CFM continues to introduce upgrades that are backward compatible) and the price of oil does go down and stays around $30-$40/bbl... who knows. They may wait until some really significant development would provide a major improvement in costs. On the other hand, if A or B blinks before 2009-10 first, than the other will be forced to follow suit.
On a related note, I also believe that there will be major industry consolidation by 2015 and that will have a major impact on fleets. As a result, there will be less airport congestion and improved ATC flow (aside from scheduled FAA investments and technology upgrades). Anyhow, everything I have said is, at the end of the day, just speculation... a spanner can be thrown in at any time to wreck the prognostication.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
Osiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3175 posts, RR: 29 Reply 17, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1367 times:
Quoting Planemaker (Reply 16): Then you'll know that they are scrapping the TPC black hole and coming up with a transparent and more equitable R&D funding program.
I have no problem with funding changes so long as they help our aerospace sector. (I'm still bitter about what went on in the 50s and 60s in this country in that regard and I wasn't even alive).
Quoting Planemaker (Reply 16): I can quite easily for several reasons. I really believe that we are at a "tipping point" and mainly for environmental and geo-strategic reasons (or as Thomas Friedland states it, "geo-green" - the new red, white and blue), oil prices will come down to average $30-$40 as society moves away from oil and to alternatives. In fact, in 20 years time, oil could very well be lower than $30/bbl.
You may be right, but you're taking a very narrow view of consumption. China and India are only going to increase consumption heavily. Frankly if everyone in North America and Europe *stopped* using oil based products entirely, they consumption is likely to remain unchanged. Additionally, don't forget about the other things oil is used for My money is on a slow steady climb for oil prices with short term dips (short term being 1-2 years) for the next 50-100 years.
Quoting Planemaker (Reply 16): But you have to weigh the cost of new aircraft (all of the costs...) over the relatively small increase in fuel savings with oil at possibly $30-$40/bbl. Boeing recently said that it is not worth it to introduce a new model for only a 10% improvement. And at 15%, the CSeries didn't get any real interest.
Boeing also based that on not having another player in the market. They are quite happy to split the market two ways I would guess, but I doubt they would like a 3 way split very much at all.
Quoting Planemaker (Reply 16): Anyhow, everything I have said is, at the end of the day, just speculation... a spanner can be thrown in at any time to wreck the prognostication.
Ditto, but it's still fun
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
Planemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 5117 posts, RR: 35 Reply 18, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1321 times:
Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 17): I have no problem with funding changes so long as they help our aerospace sector. (I'm still bitter about what went on in the 50s and 60s in this country in that regard and I wasn't even alive).
Well, BBD is not doing themselves any favours by starting to move production to Mexico. The Quebec union is pretty upset that after all the government "support" and employee aquiesence that they would pull such a "stunt".
Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 17): but you're taking a very narrow view of consumption.
Believe it or not, I'm not. Short term China and India will increase their oil consumption but it is, and will be, a fraction of peak USA and Europe consumption (or the developed world). I don't know if you are aware that over 80% of US electricy generation is non-oil... the big culprit is the transport sector and that can be easily solved if there is the political will. BTW, Sweden has taken steps to be "oil free" by 2020. And California is really pushing hard on some legislative intiatives that will change the status quo. As well, consumers are increasingly starting to make the "right choice". I don't want to go off topic but the signs and evidence is there that I believe (baring some unforseen global disaster) that the oil price will go down and stay down.
Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 17): Boeing also based that on not having another player in the market. They are quite happy to split the market two ways I would guess, but I doubt they would like a 3 way split very much at all.
No, Boeing based that on the fact that they couldn't build a 737 replacement today with better than 10% improvement (paraphrased, that at least is what Randy said). Boeing would not like any player in the market - period... but the reality is that the defunct CSeries threat would have been marginal... the impact to lost Boeing profits would have been measured in decimals (OK, slight exaggeration ). In any case, right now Boeing must be feeling like they swallowed the canary.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
That's really old news then. The current issue of Airways is November, which hit the newsstands before the end of September. That means the August issue came out in late June. I assume its deadline for articles is about a month before it's printed, so that would mean that item was probably written in May.
Gregtx From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 216 posts, RR: 1 Reply 20, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 1154 times:
Bombardier still has 50 full time employees on the project--although I'd be curious how many are engineers.
I'm pretty clueless as to why if it's totally dead.
The recent popularity or the CRJ900 may unnecessarily be encouraging them!
I thought that NW and Lufthansa would have jumped onboard already if there was any chance. NW has already played it's hand, or will shortly, with EMB190/5's.
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Yep the 737 has served it's time well.. I mean how many frames are we talking about. It's time to start thinking about letting the old girl rest. One thing is for sure.. nothing will EVER sell as many frames as that thing again (commercial space I'm talking about).
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