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ComAir To Impose FA Pay Cuts  
User currently offlineATLAaron From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1023 posts, RR: 3
Posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5135 times:
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http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/061009/comair.html?.v=2

Will they strike?

[Edited 2006-10-09 22:25:15]

76 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5116 times:

What a bunch of thugs.

Of course they will strike.



One Nation Under God
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5099 times:

that will be the fastest way to shut the airline down - for good.

User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6603 posts, RR: 24
Reply 3, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 5049 times:

The bigger question is how will Mother Delta react to a strike and the millions in losses that would accompany it?

Is it worth allowing a strike that will potentially cost the company hundreds of millions or simply let the FA's have their way while slowly liquidating Comair?


User currently offlineDL787932ER From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 597 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4932 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 3):
The bigger question is how will Mother Delta react to a strike and the millions in losses that would accompany it?

Is it worth allowing a strike that will potentially cost the company hundreds of millions or simply let the FA's have their way while slowly liquidating Comair?

If a strike leads to significant disruption of service, there won't be anything "slow" about the liquidation. DL learned their lesson from the Comair pilot strike in 2000, and are diversified enough that the Comair flying can be redistributed relatively quickly.

The ground service, maintenance, etc. might remain (it's a big part of the business), or be merged into the mainline operations, but I think at this point DL could take or leave the flying.



F L Y D E L T A J E T S
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4926 times:

There is an abundance of excess regional jet capacity in the industry right now plus this is an off-peak period.

There is no doubt that DL will move very quickly to put OH permanently out of business and replace its flying post-haste.


User currently offlineSkibum9 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1229 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4870 times:

Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 4):
If a strike leads to significant disruption of service, there won't be anything "slow" about the liquidation. DL learned their lesson from the Comair pilot strike in 2000, and are diversified enough that the Comair flying can be redistributed relatively quickly.

This might be a little harder than you think. Usually others will not fly struck work in honor of the strike, and the company cannot make them. So they may have a difficult time putting another carrier on the exact same routes.



Tailwinds!!!
User currently offlineTOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3288 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4870 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 5):
There is an abundance of excess regional jet capacity in the industry right now plus this is an off-peak period.

They plan to implement the paycuts on 11/15. That just before the busiest travel period of the year. Even though a lot of the CVG flying is operated by other carriers, a good percentage is still Comair.

Anyone know what percentage of regional flying Comair operates at CVG and ATL?


User currently offlineDTWAGENT From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4824 times:

Don't these F/A's realized that their are alot of out of work F/A's that would love to work for this kind of pay. Sure its not the best pay. But, it beat unemployment checks or NO money at all coming in to the house.

I think they all need to stop and think about this. This also includes NWA F/A's as well.


User currently offlineFreedom747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4785 times:

Greed...funny thing.

User currently offlineAvConsultant From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1360 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4746 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 5):
There is an abundance of excess regional jet capacity in the industry right now plus this is an off-peak period.

There is no doubt that DL will move very quickly to put OH permanently out of business and replace its flying post-haste.

Very true, ExpressJet will have upo to 60+ aircraft available very soon. Besides, DL can move those OH aircraft to another certificate since they're the holding company.

This will be a non-event for DL should they strike. Note everyone will honor the strike.


User currently offlineASFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2005, 1169 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 4678 times:

Quoting DTWAGENT (Reply 8):



Quoting DTWAGENT (Reply 8):
Don't these F/A's realized that their are alot of out of work F/A's that would love to work for this kind of pay. Sure its not the best pay. But, it beat unemployment checks or NO money at all coming in to the house.

I think they all need to stop and think about this. This also includes NWA F/A's as well.

Oh for god sakes - get real. Do you have an inkling of what these people make?!?!?! The airlines are cutting their pay to levels that qualify them for public assistance. Not only is it not the "best pay", but it's not even pay that will allow one to support themselves. Quite frankly, the pay that is being offered is not better than unemployment and the odds that any of these folks will remain jobless forever is pretty nil. They can get work just about anywhere for what the airlines want to pay them. These people are in these jobs primarily because they love what they do and they love the industry. The airlines are chasing these folks out of the industry and trying to replace them with folks that could care less about their passengers, the industry or their jobs. Pretty soon you'll find the same employees you see at your local Burger King working on board your flights.

I can only imagine that you advocate the airlines treating their employees this way because you are one of those that care only that another airline going away means less picture taking opportunities for you.

It's amazing to me that people bitch about the state of customer service on board U.S. airlines yet they advocate paying these same workers minimum wages.


User currently offlineFlyf15 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 4670 times:

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 11):
Oh for god sakes - get real. Do you have an inkling of what these people make?!?!?! The airlines are cutting their pay to levels that qualify them for public assistance. Not only is it not the "best pay", but it's not even pay that will allow one to support themselves. Quite frankly, the pay that is being offered is not better than unemployment and the odds that any of these folks will remain jobless forever is pretty nil. They can get work just about anywhere for what the airlines want to pay them. These people are in these jobs primarily because they love what they do and they love the industry. The airlines are chasing these folks out of the industry and trying to replace them with folks that could care less about their passengers, the industry or their jobs. Pretty soon you'll find the same employees you see at your local Burger King working on board your flights.

I can only imagine that you advocate the airlines treating their employees this way because you are one of those that care only that another airline going away means less picture taking opportunities for you.

It's amazing to me that people bitch about the state of cus

Finally, someone on here gets it. I was beginning to think I was the only one....


User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7544 posts, RR: 25
Reply 13, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 4664 times:

Does anyone know what the fate of CVG will be should DL cut Comair? Ive asked before, but no one seems to know. I know that CVG has a very large percentage of DL coded flights operated by comair. I can see CVG becoming a shell of its former existance if DL cuts Comair.

Does anyone have any thoughts? (WorldTraveler- Mr. Delta himself might be able to shed some light on this  Wink )



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineADXMatt From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 950 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 4648 times:

Wow that was a short press release....

I don't think the F/A will be allowed to strike. Masaba imposed pay cuts in BK and the F/A had to go to the NMB.

I think that the same will happen to Comair.... then the 30 day cooling off and wow look it is the slow January season.

HMMMMM

just my 2cents.


User currently offlineSurfdog75 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 331 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 4638 times:

Why are so many people so anxious to see employees take large pay and benefit cuts? They have a right to fight for a liveable wage and don't deserve to be called greedy when they stand up to corporations that think only of cutting employee costs rather than increasing revenue. So many jobs that used to pay well and support families have disappeared or become entry level work in this country. By the time the company realizes that what they pay only attracts the bottom of the barrel employee, the damage has already been done.

Southwest gets it and it's not a coincidence that they've been the only consistently profitable company and have consistently good customer satisfaction ratings. They fly all their own passengers without farming them out to contract carriers. An entry level employee knows that the company cares about their welfare and in turn the employee cares about the company. He or she also knows there is a chance to move up the ladder. Why are most other airlines moving in the opposite direction? They can't wait to farm most everything out to the lowest bidder. Very short-sighted in my opinion.


User currently offlineADXMatt From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 950 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4597 times:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/....shtml?source=RSSattr=U.S._2075334

This article states

Even with the adjustments to the contract that include an average pay cut of 7.5 percent, the company says its flight attendants will remain the highest paid in the regional airline industry. The average flight attendant salary is $29,950 and the average pay cut is $2,250.

Where did they get this figure of $29,950? The F/A's I've spoken too don't even make close to that.


User currently offlineEjmmsu From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1692 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 4591 times:

Quoting Surfdog75 (Reply 15):
Why are so many people so anxious to see employees take large pay and benefit cuts? They have a right to fight for a liveable wage and don't deserve to be called greedy when they stand up to corporations that think only of cutting employee costs rather than increasing revenue. So many jobs that used to pay well and support families have disappeared or become entry level work in this country. By the time the company realizes that what they pay only attracts the bottom of the barrel employee, the damage has already been done.

The problem is that their costs are much higher than their competition. If OH cannot get their costs down, DL is not going to renew their contract, and everyone at OH will be out of work.... and a lot of CRJ's will be headed to the desert. They certainly have a right to stand up for more pay, but in this case, if they do, they will ultimately all lose their jobs.

They have a decision to make.. is it better to make less money, or is it better to not have the job at all, and move on to somewhere else. If the choice is to move on to somewhere else, why take the company down with them? Why not simply quit, and let someone who is willing to work for less pay take their job? Why (possibly) inconvenience so many innocent travelers, when in the end, the result would be the same?



"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
User currently offlineOkie73 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 445 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4520 times:

Quoting ADXMatt (Reply 16):
The average flight attendant salary is $29,950 and the average pay cut is $2,250.

same people who said the average Delta pilot makes 167,000.


User currently offlineAogdesk From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 935 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4512 times:

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 11):
It's amazing to me that people bitch about the state of customer service on board U.S. airlines yet they advocate paying these same workers minimum wages.

Fact.


User currently offlineAvConsultant From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1360 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4509 times:

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 11):
The airlines are chasing these folks out of the industry and trying to replace them with folks that could care less about their passengers, the industry or their jobs. Pretty soon you'll find the same employees you see at your local Burger King working on board your flights.

I agree; however, this is the evolution of business. The airline industry was delayed in transitioning to what it really is - the service industry. No one is denying these employees are standing up for what they feel is owed to them; however, they're being left behind/replaced with cost efficient companies. The company is not preventing the employees from moving onto other careers.
As these employees protest to protect their interest, the company is doing the same thing in protecting their interest. The unions had 2 approaches, defend what they have at all cost or partner with the company to identify or cost savings and work efficiencies.

Did the latter occur? Hmmmm, probably not at OH.

Besides, how many F/A, pilots and Mechancis look to make Comair a career. Regional carriers have served as a "stepping stone". My only grip with Comair is why create a costly and complex benefits package with the intention of remaining a regional carrier? This will only price you out of business which it is doing. All parties should put the past behind them and look to the future. IF the sacrifices are too great, then research a new career path.

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 11):
It's amazing to me that people bitch about the state of customer service on board U.S. airlines yet they advocate paying these same workers minimum wages.

As I mentioned, the airline industry is a subsection of the service industry. The cost and revenue will fall in line accordingly; unfortunately these changes will occur faster than imagined, compare airline wages of Pre-9/11 to Post 2006. 2/3rd of the Legacy Carriers have restructed cost in bankruptcy. During the same period, the industry leaders have shifted to the once un-noticable Low Cost Carriers. The market sets the fares; we should not be surprised when people drive 3 hrs from DSM to MCI to save $100 in airfare.

Unfortunately, the prestige of working for an airline appears to be deminishing outside the industry.

Quoting Surfdog75 (Reply 15):
Southwest gets it and it's not a coincidence that they've been the only consistently profitable company and have consistently good customer satisfaction ratings.

In 2004 while connecting in CVG, I read an article in The Equirer that stated a 3rd year Southwest F/A hourly rate was the same as a first year Comair F/A. A 737 has more revenue capability than an RJ whether it's 40, 50, or 70 seats.


Looking at the direction the industry appears to be moving, I do not think it's in individuals nor companies best interest for front line employees to become career employees. I know technology can not replace a smile or true customer service, does the flying public care? Maybe or maybe not. Technology can make customer service more efficient without the personal touch.

40-30 years ago, diners were replaced with fast food. Unless you're in New Jersey, you must pump your own gas. Hell, we even check ourselves out at Kroger and Home Depot to name significant few. We've become a truely independent society no longer requiring customer service. Do not confuse this with the argument of safety. That's a preamble the government requires to working in the industry.

We think the last 5 years were significant, we have no idea what the future holds once the Eclipse and Honda Jets are implemented into commercial service.

Its obvious the number of jobs in the industry will deminish or transition to other areas. Remember technological know how and advancements will reduce the number of jobs transitioned.


User currently offlineOkie73 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 445 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4466 times:

Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 20):
Looking at the direction the industry appears to be moving, I do not think it's in individuals nor companies best interest for front line employees to become career employees.

with Flight Attendants and Gate Agents, I would agree with you. I don't know how either one can work a whole career and continue to be motivated and happy when you deal with idiot passengers all day. But personally I want the pilots and mechanics to be experianced career employees.


User currently offlineAvConsultant From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1360 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4448 times:

Quoting Okie73 (Reply 21):
But personally I want the pilots and mechanics to be experianced career employees.

I agree. I do know Comair hires a lot of thier pilots from their flight academy in Florida. I think we would be surprised with the number of hours they have coming out of the academy. I've often wondered if there is a hiring ratio from the academy. When I say career, meant as a Comair employee.


User currently offlineASFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2005, 1169 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4368 times:

Quoting Okie73 (Reply 21):
with Flight Attendants and Gate Agents, I would agree with you. I don't know how either one can work a whole career and continue to be motivated and happy when you deal with idiot passengers all day. But personally I want the pilots and mechanics to be experianced career employees.

Think about the Air France accident in YYZ. The FA's were responsible for evacuating that entire aircraft and most likely saving many passengers from a fiery death. Too bad you don't value that. Perhaps the next time there is a survivable accident the FA's will be the first to bail, leaving the passengers the fend for themselves and figure out how to get out on their own. After all, it's an entry level position that really shouldn't attract professional people that are interested in a serious job.


User currently offlineTinPusher007 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 977 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4344 times:

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 23):
Think about the Air France accident in YYZ. The FA's were responsible for evacuating that entire aircraft and most likely saving many passengers from a fiery death. Too bad you don't value that. Perhaps the next time there is a survivable accident the FA's will be the first to bail, leaving the passengers the fend for themselves and figure out how to get out on their own. After all, it's an entry level position that really shouldn't attract professional people that are interested in a serious job.

This is the point! Flight attendants and their companies will tell you all day long that they are there to provide SAFETY first. Moreover, they are MANDATED by the FAA. It's fundamentally wrong to put a price tag on that "service" and a cheap one at that. Im not saying they should be raking in huge six figure salaries, but required crewmembers of 121 airlines should not be elligable for public assistance.



"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
25 ATLAaron : It is my honest OPINION that I think DL would like to see OH go bye bye, and that they also are not all that keen on CVG. If OH goes watch the amount
26 FlyPNS1 : DL has publicly stated that they are committed to the CVG hub regardless of Comair's status. However, I do believe that should Comair strike or quick
27 Okie73 : actually I do value that, very much. But the fact is it does not take that long to train someone to help evacuate an aircraft. Further, given that th
28 Post contains images AvConsultant : Oh Boy!!
29 Ejmmsu : Bickering about all this safety nonsense is completely missing the real point here.... "The problem is that their costs are much higher than their com
30 WorldTraveler : There have certainly been incidents where younger, lower paid flight attendants are just as successful in performing their responsibilities in an eme
31 TOLtommy : Yep, Comair F/A's are currently among the highest paid in the regional industry. If they had accepted the company's pay proposal, they still would've
32 TinPusher007 : I hope you don't ever find yourself stuck in an airplane that has crashed and is rapidly burning. A F/A making burger king wages or less might find t
33 RJ : First to WorldTraveler, can I get you a towel to wipe the drool off of your mouth because evil Comair might at last be shut down? Where do I begin thi
34 2H4 : If this should occur, what other airlines would be most likely to introduce (or expand) service to CVG? 2H4
35 Bucky707 : Then why do I constantly fly with FOs who came from CMR?
36 ATLAaron : B6, FL and WN would be my guesses, but nothing of any size compared to what DL would have had there.
37 RJ : Bucky707, I was trying to put the sentiment of Comair employees into a historical context. However, the climate has shifted since last summer when the
38 Lono : Last time this happened (comair strick) DL lost their butts.... if DL learned anything they know this is a big gamble and it could take the airline d
39 TinPusher007 : Thank you RJ for going even deeper than before to explain this Comair situation correctly. I would think that most of us Anet'ers are 'working people'
40 Lowrider : Because a lot of us realized that our personal fortunes were closely tied to the companies fortunes, and we didn't like the way those tea leaves look
41 OttoPylit : Most likely won't happen. First of all, the FA's know what is at stake. And secondly, by the time Nov 15th rolls around, Delta will have already had
42 Post contains images 2H4 : If only management had led by example and treated employees with a shred of respect. Granted, I'm looking in from the outside, but it seems as though
43 TinPusher007 : This is not true. I attended what was then Comair Academy. Though I was not hired to instruct there, the hour requirements to get to Comair were much
44 Ejmmsu : I'm not particularly worried..... I always sit in the exit row due to my status, and I always asess the load on each flight and am prepared to help g
45 2H4 : Well, good for you. Personally, I'm concerned about the safety of friends and loved ones, as well. But that's just me. They absolutely will. You seem
46 Ejmmsu : I'm completely at a loss as to how a FA in the front of the plane is going to help pax exiting over the wings, or vice versa... I guess we are just g
47 2H4 : Well, in a dark, smoke-filled, inverted, luggage-strewn cabin, you and I may be able to crawl out from underneath carryon bags, find our way to the e
48 TinPusher007 : Not that everything the FAA does makes perfect sense, but if a F/A wouldn't make any difference in saftey, I don't think the FAA would mandate it. Ma
49 AvConsultant : Fortunately, OH FA are one of the highest paid regionals. Will this cut place them in foodstamp range? I doubt it and says who? The union? BTW, the u
50 Lowrider : Being the highest paid regional does not equal being highly paid. They are still poorly paid compared to any mainline counterpart. They start out aro
51 AvConsultant : That's good, they are not deserving of the pay of the mainline counterparts. OH revenue is not similar to DL. If they cannot survive on that amount t
52 WorldTraveler : This all sounds so much like the OH pilot campaign that RJ pilots should be paid mainline wages. Comair will successfully impose this contract and giv
53 Lowrider : Considering they do comparable work, and have a similar level of responsibility, the union has an obligation to fight for comparable wages Alright, l
54 Drewwright : That's a rather ignorant comment. Regional F/A's are responsible for more pax than their mainline counterparts. Working a full 50 seater on your own
55 TinPusher007 : There are PILOTS that qualify for food stamps. Surely OH flight attendants make less.
57 OttoPylit : Yes, but how many people apply to Comair while the airline is BK? Not many. And they've actually had students defecting to other airlines(now that it
58 TinPusher007 : I don't think it was that students didn't want to work for Comair. But the strike really slowed things down and hiring at Comair came to a hault. And
59 Annoyedfa : You people seriously make me so sick. You know NOTHING about their current contract and the cuts they HAVE ALREADY GIVEN! Comair flight attendants are
60 RandyWaldron : You make me sick. Flight Attendants should not be subjected to below-poverty-level wages, especially those working single-FA, RJ positions. DTWAGENT,
61 DILF : ROFLMAO !!!! Umm, yea they can -- with not much of a real interruption, either. And it sounds like DL is ready to take them all on, too. Sorry, Annoy
62 Miller22 : I really hope you're not referring to KLEX. I knew that flight attendant personally, and he was one of the top five I've ever flown with, including m
63 Miller22 : That's simply not true. It still requires 1200 total to get hired. Most of the guys over the past few years had > 3000 hours and came from prior 121
64 TinPusher007 : Rest assured, I didn't mean that in a derogatory way. I was responding to someone who said that the argument to pay F/A better because their job is a
65 Miller22 : Tin, I figured thats what you meant, and I apologize for jumping the gun a bit. I still take every chance I can get to talk about that FA. Kelly defin
66 TOLtommy : And just what cuts have they given? When were they implemented? Source? Again, source? Are you comparing Comair to all FA's, or simply comparing to o
67 Post contains images Flyinryan99 : Maybe because he's seen this happen too many times in the area we live in. Unions taking a stand and whittling companies and jobs down to nothing. A
68 TinPusher007 : No harm, no foul. May your friend rest in peace.
69 Laxatljfkcvg : someone like you is probably obsesed with ATL if you think delta cvg should go { bye bye}. Then that is like me saying LAX is overrated { witch it is
70 ATLAaron : Sounds of these posts including the one above as well as "they can't replace all of us" . . . think back to NW and the mechanics. Also, there are a l
71 AvConsultant : F/A and ground handlers are the easiest to replace.
72 Post contains links OttoPylit : Here ya go. Pay close attention to the reduced minimum times listed for any previous jet experience: 600 hours total time 100 hours multi-engine time
73 TinPusher007 : I've seen this too Otto. However when I was at Comair Academy, the hiring agreement was only with Comair which has never lowered its mins below 1200t
74 WNCrew : FA's are EXTREMELY integral to the safety of a flight. For all you naysayers; I am not ONLY trained to operate the emergency exits, inflate the slides
75 ANNOYEDFA : BRAVOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! BRAVOOOOOOOOOO!!!! BRAVOOOOOOOO!!!!
76 OttoPylit : I'm mostly just responding to Miller22's response that it was wrong when apparently its not. Remember that the Comair Academy is now the Delta Connec
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