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Virgin America Readies For Takeoff  
User currently offlineJetBlueAUS From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1145 posts, RR: 8
Posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 14116 times:

It actually MIGHT happen! Check it out:

http://brandweek.com/bw/news/recent_...sp?vnu_content_id=1003221082&imw=Y


Not all of us can be heroes, some of us can only stand on the sidewalk and clap as they go by.
74 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8625 posts, RR: 15
Reply 1, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 14106 times:

I believe it will happen. It will be very intresting.

MCOflyer



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlinePilotfox From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 548 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 14058 times:

I'm curious as to where this Virgin America aircraft is right now. There are at least two out in RME, Rome, NY. However, I do not believe they any interiors installed in those aircraft. I'll have to keep an eye on Flightaware for any VA movement.

User currently offlineMikephotos From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 2923 posts, RR: 54
Reply 3, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 13900 times:

Quoting Pilotfox (Reply 2):
I'm curious as to where this Virgin America aircraft is right now.

SFO

Mike


User currently offlinePdpsol From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1088 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 13804 times:

CO and AA are so completely off the mark here.

"Takeoff had been delayed by opposition from domestic carriers—primarily Continental and American—which contends that Virgin America is masquerading as an American company and should not be given a license to operate domestic routes"

Branson, 51% owner of VS, will own 25% of Virgin America, within the ownership threshold set out in our federal legislation. "Masquerading as an American company"? Come on... Sounds like a bunch of sour-grapes to me.

Our Congress is full of wimps, influenced by know-nothing protectionists and xenophobes; they FAILED to ratify the proposed air carrier ownership and management liberalization bill. Instead, we are left with an ancient, Cold War-era law that limits our ability to negotiate with other nations [namely the LHR and EU Open Skies agreement] and limits foreign investment in our carriers.

AA and CO are playing straight into the populists' hands. However, our Congress has no excuse; all Represenatives and Senators [although the Senate is not the problem here] should be obligated to take a basic Price Theory course to learn how markets actually work and how market efficiencies create benefits for our society.

Geez...


User currently offlinePVG From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2004, 722 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 13727 times:

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 4):
Branson, 51% owner of VS, will own 25% of Virgin America, within the ownership threshold set out in our federal legislation. "Masquerading as an American company"? Come on... Sounds like a bunch of sour-grapes to me.

Agree, I don't understand why it's safe for foreign companies to produce medicine and food products in the US (which can also be used to do harm, if that's the intention), but they can't own an airline? And, especially, European/UK companies! Why would ownership by a Western European company be considered a threat? I know that there are differences of opinion on political and social policy, but I can't believe that Branson or BA or LH would seriously consider using their US ownership of aircraft to harm US interests. If they wanted to do that, they could do it now! I also assume that most (all?) of the pilots flying in the US would be US citizens. It doesn't make sense. Maybe it's a tit for tat thing. What are the ownership rules in Europe like?


User currently offlineAircellist From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 1615 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 13727 times:

A few weeks ago, I've seen at least one Virgin America plane in Dorval.

User currently offline28thguy From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 114 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 13721 times:

I didn't support Dubai taking over our ports, and I don't support foreign ownership of U.S. airlines. Airlines are critical infrastructure....

And, by the way, how would France react to U.S. ownership of Air France, for example? Just a thought.


User currently offlineHZ747300 From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2004, 1647 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 13584 times:
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Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 4):
influenced by know-nothing protectionists and xenophobes;

No, they are influenced by money. If more money was coming in to them via lobbyists for allowing more foreign ownership and control the rules would have changed. All principles are checked at the beltway.

If VirginAmerica is following all the rules, their protests should be thrown out. Any 25% voting shareholder, in any company in the world, is going to have a say in how that company is run. AA and CO's complaints are invalid and don't pass the laugh test.



Keep on truckin'...
User currently offlineSearpqx From Netherlands, joined Jun 2000, 4343 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 13477 times:

Quoting HZ747300 (Reply 8):
AA and CO's complaints are invalid and don't pass the laugh test.

Actually, based on US law, they do. Not only is ownership looked at, but operational control. AA/CO are making the case that while they may be meeting the financial control requirement, the strings are still being pulled by Branson, which is also allowed. I'm not saying I agree with US law, but that's how it currently stands.



"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
User currently offlineBlueFlyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3696 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 13414 times:
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Quoting Searpqx (Reply 9):
Actually, based on US law, they do. Not only is ownership looked at, but operational control. AA/CO are making the case that while they may be meeting the financial control requirement, the strings are still being pulled by Branson, which is also allowed.

DHL was forced to spin off its flight operations in the US to Astar Air Cargo for the same reason. FedEx and UPS initially filed a protest against DHL USA claiming that its domestic flying was in violation of US laws since DHL USA is a subsidiary of DHL Worldwide, headquartered in Belgium and owned by the German post office. Once the spin off was completed, FedEx and UPS sought to continue their action on two grounds, one, that DHL ought to be punished for having up until then violated US law (a DOT judge quickly put an end to that one), and the second that DHL USA retained effective control of Astar Air Cargo as Astar's largest customer by a huge margin (90% of Astar's revenue come from DHL flights), hence a foreign entity would be controlling Astar's fate. Eventually, FedEx and UPS lost on this approach as well, although, in the end, UPS also lost some of its enthusiasm for the proceedings when German politicians started making noises that life may be a little too good for UPS' intra-European flights in and out of its hub in Cologne.

Of course, as with American and Continental's objections to VirginAmerica, FedEx and UPS' true problem had everything to do with blocking a competitor in their largest market and one of the few left not dominated by DHL already.

Quoting HZ747300 (Reply 8):
Any 25% voting shareholder, in any company in the world, is going to have a say in how that company is run

Writing with no particular insight into VirginAmerica, there are many ways, both over and covert, in which a shareholder with 25% of the voting rights may effectively control a majority of the votes.



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineDL787932ER From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 597 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 13379 times:

More marketing...at this point it wouldn't surprise me if the entire Virgin America concept were created just to build "brand awareness" for the rest of the Virgin properties.

Personally, until the UK opens up its airports to competition from the U.S., I won't exactly shed a tear if the USDOT shuts Virgin America down cold.



F L Y D E L T A J E T S
User currently offlineAviator27 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 13379 times:

Quoting 28thguy (Reply 7):
And, by the way, how would France react to U.S. ownership of Air France, for example? Just a thought

Virgin America is minority owned by the Virgin Group. Whether SRB was exercising "operational control" is another story that none of us has the answer to. BTW there are no laws restricting Americans from taking a full stake in Air France or any other EU airline. I am sure the French would be up in arms as a matter of national pride. Anyhow, Air France-KLM Group is minting beaucoup bucks, so their asking price would be huge. Good luck to VX and I hope they get off the ground soon to bring something fresh to the skies besides pretzels.


User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6482 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 13353 times:

I think the key thing is to look at the "Virgin" brand as a franchise. Certainly, some of the Virgin carriers don't excercise 100% loyalty to the mothership (Virgin Blue, etc.) This can be extended to some of the other Virgin properties (Virgin Mobile in some nations). So Virgin America is a franchise brand.


When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineNonfirm From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 434 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 13313 times:

No matter what portion of the company Branson owns you can bet he will be pulling the string so it does not matter.That is why they should not allow this airline to start.  airplane 

User currently offlineAMSSFO From Netherlands, joined Feb 2005, 952 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 13106 times:

Quoting Nonfirm (Reply 14):
No matter what portion of the company Branson owns you can bet he will be pulling the string so it does not matter.That is why they should not allow this airline to start.

What exactly do you have against Branson?


User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 16, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 13047 times:

Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 11):
More marketing...at this point it wouldn't surprise me if the entire Virgin America concept were created just to build "brand awareness" for the rest of the Virgin properties.

That would be a very expensive ad-campaign, considering the money already put into this venture, like the three(?) aircraft already built and delivered to them.



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineWesternA318 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 5647 posts, RR: 24
Reply 17, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 13016 times:

Quoting Aircellist (Reply 6):
A few weeks ago, I've seen at least one Virgin America plane in Dorval

I saw two in full colors and two all white, but VA registrations sitting out at Dorval a few weeks ago as well, have pics too, but I refuse to post them on here



Next trip: SLC-LAX-JFK-LAX-SLC on AA, gotta say goodbye to my beloved 762!
User currently offlineFutureFO From Ireland, joined Oct 2001, 3131 posts, RR: 22
Reply 18, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 12821 times:

They are not anywhere close to getting the OK to start. VCV is another place where the planes are at.


I Don't know where I am anymore
User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8089 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 12812 times:
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Let poor little Virgin America take off, for GOD's sake. Are 30 A320 going to really hurt AA or UA, it seems they are very threatened by Branson. Continental is the one that surprises me, it has a code share with Virgin Atlantic to LHR, it must not be to important to them.

User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 20, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 12800 times:

Blatant protectionism. Whatever happened to free trade and enterprise?


What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineTropicBird From United States of America, joined May 2005, 502 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 12651 times:

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 20):
Blatant protectionism. Whatever happened to free trade and enterprise?

There are still too many airline seats in the U.S. and we don't need to add to the misery airline employees have endured because of that. I see it almost every day. Furthermore, some capital intensive industries don't do well with yo-yo capitalism i.e. one airline after another seeking to become the next SWA.

The new guy always enters the market with lower airfares (to get market share) which in turn causes those in business to cut their overhead (read salaries, jobs and necessary equipment etc.) The industry is still trying to adjust to JetBlue and now we have Virgin America. Nothing personal, but I vote NO for now.


User currently onlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6729 posts, RR: 18
Reply 22, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 12635 times:

Quoting TropicBird (Reply 21):
There are still too many airline seats in the U.S. and we don't need to add to the misery airline employees have endured because of that. I see it almost every day.

It all depends on where you are thinking those airline seats are. There are too many NYC-LAX/SoFlorida/Chicago/etc.. but other places have a lack of seats.. so I thnk that your statement is both true and false. Hopefully VA will think outside the box adn try new moves like Delta and AirTran are currently doing. I mean, from SFO, there are some locations unserved which could benefit from service. And there are some locations monopolized that could benefit from the service.



Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12090 posts, RR: 50
Reply 23, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 12562 times:

Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 11):
More marketing...at this point it wouldn't surprise me if the entire Virgin America concept were created just to build "brand awareness" for the rest of the Virgin properties.

Personally, until the UK opens up its airports to competition from the U.S., I won't exactly shed a tear if the USDOT shuts Virgin America down cold.



Quoting Nonfirm (Reply 14):
No matter what portion of the company Branson owns you can bet he will be pulling the string so it does not matter.That is why they should not allow this airline to start.



Quoting FutureFO (Reply 18):
They are not anywhere close to getting the OK to start. VCV is another place where the planes are at.

Just more hype is all it is, they are no closer to taking to the Sky's then they were before.

SRB is just getting back what he caused when AA and BA tried to code share, he effectively killed that, what goes around comes around.



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12027 posts, RR: 47
Reply 24, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 12507 times:
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Every time the topic of Virgin America comes up we see rabid protectionism from the alleged master capitalists of the world.

What exactly are you so scared of? I thought open and free competition was the best thing for the consumer?



Hey AA, the 1960s called. They want their planes back!
25 Post contains images DL787932ER : And when I can fly DL or CO to LHR, I'll be much more interested in hearing about "open and free competition" from our friends across the pond.
26 Incitatus : Free trade and enterprise are being held up by the medieval rules preventing some US airlines from serving Heathrow. All this is is tit-for-tat.[Edit
27 Ikramerica : You see, this is the problem. People are like "it's just a little airline, and the brits are our allies." First, who says it's only going to be 30? B
28 Richierich : It is the best thing for the consumer, but perhaps not the best thing for other airlines. As a consumer, I say "bring it on".
29 Kappel : What happens? Chinese investing in a US firm, that's what happens, it's what's happening everywhere. I heard the same arguments in the 80's when ever
30 StuckInCA : Every one of these Virgin America threads turns out the same. But why shouldn't airlines have to deal with competition just like we do in nearly every
31 Kaddyuk : Not the airline's fault... they pay to use infrastructure and airspace, its your governments responsibility to ensure that it grows with the airlines
32 Post contains images Scbriml : Hmm. Last time I checked, Bermuda II was a bi-lateral agreement.
33 CHRISBA777ER : I didnt say we in the EU are any better, I just think the much-trumpeted free enterprise, land of opportunity, consumer capitalism, land of the free
34 Kaddyuk : We are better, We offer Openskies agreement to every other airport in the EU... Take your pick, there are thousands of them... just because they cant
35 B737900er : why would that matter if Virgin Atlantic and Virgin America are seperate airlines run by seperate people?
36 Post contains images CHRISBA777ER : *runs for cover* Now youve done it!
37 SFOFlyer : On Friday, I flew out on UA 977 from SFO-MEX and saw the Virgin America A320 sitting over at the Jet Center across the airport. Nice looking plane...
38 RentonView : ...and hire American crews and ground staff, and buy Boeing aircraft, and fly underserved/monopolized routes? Horrors! I, for one, would love to fly
39 CaptainStorck : There were three of them at RME last week, along with one of the new Skybus aircraft.
40 BHXFAOTIPYYC : It is good business sense for AA/CO to raise objections. Much better for them to spend a few hundred thousand $$ on lawyers if by doing so you can del
41 Luv2fly : Right now it is just AA/CO wait in time the others will join the fight and further delay the start up. If you ask me the other airlines are waiting a
42 Kappel : Please don't misquote me, I never said that. I also disagreed with that post...
43 Travellin'man : All of this, I think, goes back to something called the Jones Transportation Act, which governs ALL domestic commercial transportation, ie, anything o
44 LawnDart : Independance Air trashed yields by offering fares at below cost, and their weapon of choice was the lowly CRJ... I guarantee Virgin America will not
45 UALmMflyer : I saw two Virgina America A320 at YUL two weeks ago.
46 Post contains links and images Gabypn1992 : Yes, you're right, there's two Virgin stored at Montreal-Trudeau since a long time ago. View Large View Medium Photo © Eric Fortin - AirTeamImages[E
47 Pilotfox : Is there any particualr reason their aircraft are scattered all across North America?
48 EA CO AS : Not the airline's fault, but it IS the airline's problem. And please tell me how you can grow airspace.
49 Post contains images JetBlueAUS : Well, so much for free market competition?
50 LawnDart : RVSM (Reduced Vertical Separation Minimums) for starters...the efficiency of airspace use can be improved...atmosphere can not be "grown"...
51 Boeing7E7 : This is all that matters here. Complete over simplification.
52 N908AW : Yes, but that's not the law. Free enterprise. It has to do with the government. And Richard Branson is not the government. Again, see above. It's not
53 Tootallsd : You must try to understand my poor countrymen. We all say we are capitalists but in fact many of us hate the impact of capitalism on society. As soon
54 EA CO AS : Already available. Tell me of any new ways, because so far it hasn't done much to relieve congestion.
55 BA747400 : You know what, i dont give a flying SHI*, and you know why? Because its bringing American jobs and giving people a decent amount of service for a dece
56 Post contains images Lightsaber : Good in theory. The issue is the EU wants an open skies with the US sans restrictions but wishes to impose them on the US; e.g., LHR slots, the US wa
57 Lono : Jefferson Airplane.... hmmmm wonder what demographic they are looking at.... this is getting interesting.... go Jefferson Airplane!!!!! Go see Alice..
58 Post contains links YULspotter : Over the summer there were a total of 4 Virgin America A320's parked at YUL. Two of them in full Virgin America livery parked at the de-icing bay. I
59 EA CO AS : While potentially placing an equal (if not greater) number of American jobs at other carriers (and those businesses who support them) in jeopardy at
60 DILF : how come?
61 Post contains images Comorin : Well, "Fly Jefferson Airplane, gets you there on time..""
62 Ha763 : The Jones Act only applies to maritime cargo and nothing else. Passenger ships are covered under the Passenger Vessel Services Act. As for other surf
63 Steeler83 : And if you go chasing white airbuses and you know you're going to fall, tell them Mr. Richard Branson has given you the call!!! Don't you need someon
64 Post contains images WesternA318 : Then wouldnt the airline be called Panda Express? I know for a fact, ANY pic I have would get rejected.
65 Travellin'man : Thanks for this, although I am not so sure that it doesn't cover all forms of cabotage. As for DHL, it is a full blown US based company owned by the
66 Post contains links and images BigGSFO : http://www.nameourplanes.com/ Alrighty, save some clever wit from a sassy post here and name a Virgin America plane. Could the options under "What wou
67 Cornish : Of course mentioning Bermuda II in this case is an interesting one. Open up LHR to ALL American carriers would bring competition that would be detrime
68 Post contains images Scbriml : The key word there is loan. Or have the likes of CO, AA, DL, UA, etc. never taken a loan or government hand-out?
69 SeeTheWorld : First of all, the number of aircraft is not relevant, control is the issue. Second of all, regardless of the relevancy, 30 airplanes would have a sig
70 MaverickM11 : Open up LHR to all US carriers, with a reasonable amount of slots in desirable hours ready for use, and the whole "foreign ownership" thing would sud
71 Post contains images BigGSFO : Yes, Surely.
72 Post contains images Steeler83 : mmmmmm... Peking Duck anyone? I guess we'd have to wait and see what routes they'd start up if that was to even happen
73 LAXdude1023 : Is this even doable? The last several times i've landed at LHR, we end up circleing the airport waiting for some open time to land. LHR airspace seem
74 Ha763 : Again it doesn't. The Merchant Marine Act of 1920, or more commonly known as the Jones Act, is only concerned with maritime cargo. Passenger ship ser
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