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NW's Fleet: Current And Future  
User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 6516 times:

Just looking to discuss/understand all the NW fleet info and fleet development/usage in one place. Especially those things not related to the DC9 replacement or addition of EMB or CRJs.

Active fleet & # of seats: Mainline & regional carriers
Saab-340 (SFA) (30)
Saab-340 (SF3) (33)
Saab-340 (SFC) (34)
CRJ-200 (50)

DC9-30 (100)
DC9-40 (110)
DC9-50 (125)
A319-100 (124)
A320-200 (148)
757-200 (D - 5600) (184)
757-200 (I - 5600) (182) (As listed on NWA.com)
757-200 (5500) (182)
757-300 (224)
A330-200 (243)
A330-300 (298)
747-200Z (353)
747-200G (430)
747-400 (403)

Leaving/left fleet (2006-2007)
RJ 85* (69)
DC10-30* (273)

New to Fleet (2007+)
787-8 (210-250)
CRJ-900* (86)
EMB-175* (78 - 86)



Already being discussed
We have a fleet of regional aircraft that can do a ton of the domestic grunt work at low costs. 36 CRJ-900 and 36 EMB-175s (rolling options up to 100)

People are discussing NW looking at the EMB190/195 for the DC9 replacement. Which Will NW Order The 190, 195, Or Both?

5600 series 757-200s are getting (some have) winglets for International service (where to...well that is another issue)

A new long-haul aircraft that can open up DTW and MSP to more points in Asia. As well as west coast to Europe and deeper into Asia or new East Coast (ex: BOS) to Asia. 18 787 (options for a bunch more - 50?)



Questions

How old are the Saabs and if they are getting up there, what could replace them?

Is it even profitable to use a CRJ-200 on a route currently served by a Saab? (ex: CWA is served by both Saabs and CRJs from MSP and DTW)

What could replace the 747-200s for the beach market or international market?
Would we see downgrades in capacity to A330s or 787s or even more 757s?

NW says they could use a 747-400 for DTW-PVG. Where is this plane coming from?
Are there enough 747-400s in the fleet or are we looking at abusing 747-400s?

Could NW use their 787 options and go for either the 787-9 or even the 787-10 (when offered)? What would be the advantage of doing this? Where/How could they (-9/-10) be used?

Could the 777-300ER be a benefit for NWA? Could it be added without many problems for pilots, F/A or ground? Could it replace older 744s and/or 742s?


Please correct any information in the list above. It came directly from the NW website and memory


Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
17 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 1, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 6503 times:

Quoting Centrair (Thread starter):

People are discussing NW looking at the EMB190/195 for the DC9 replacement. Which Will NW Order The 190, 195, Or Both?

I think the order they did, spliting between the Bombardier and Embraer shows that the DC-9 replacement will be the E190/195. My guess is it will be some combination of the two, to replace the entire line of DC-9s. I don't think you'll see it till they formally emerge from bankruptcy. The DC-9s are still flying just fine, they've taken the ones in the worst shape out as part of a capacity reduction, and the A319s have taken some of their places. We'll see a 190/195 order yet though, i'm awful certain.

Quoting Centrair (Thread starter):
Is it even profitable to use a CRJ-200 on a route currently served by a Saab? (ex: CWA is served by both Saabs and CRJs from MSP and DTW)

Many of them, no. A lot of their upper midwestern routes are really only profitable on a prop, and the SF340 is still doing the job.

Quoting Centrair (Thread starter):
What could replace the 747-200s for the beach market or international market?
Would we see downgrades in capacity to A330s or 787s or even more 757s?

They aren't flying many 742s on the beach market anymore, they have some flying routes in Asia, but once the 787s come on-line, these will be taken out as 787s fill in 747 capacity and 744s become more available.

Quoting Centrair (Thread starter):
NW says they could use a 747-400 for DTW-PVG. Where is this plane coming from?
Are there enough 747-400s in the fleet or are we looking at abusing 747-400s?

Yes, NW isn't really hurting for 744s. The 744s from their JFK-NRT for instance that was stopped. Some airlines are hurting for widebodies. NW isn't one of them.

Quoting Centrair (Thread starter):
Could the 777-300ER be a benefit for NWA? Could it be added without many problems for pilots, F/A or ground? Could it replace older 744s and/or 742s?

The 742s are soon to be gone. The 744s will get their interiors revamped at some point in the next couple of years i'm pretty convinced, and will fly another 7-10 years before NW is likely to replace them with the 773ER (or a competitor)

Quoting Centrair (Thread starter):
Could NW use their 787 options and go for either the 787-9 or even the 787-10 (when offered)? What would be the advantage of doing this? Where/How could they (-9/-10) be used?

I have money that says their 787-8 orders stay for 787-8. They are for thin routes, things like SEA-HKG, PDX-NRT, etc.



"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineSlovacek747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 6345 times:

they really need to streamline their mainline fleet.. I believe they could do it with the 748 or 773ER, 787, and 737NG (or whatever comes along next at that size from Boeing-737RS).

Slovacek747


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22865 posts, RR: 20
Reply 3, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 6302 times:

Quoting Centrair (Thread starter):
How old are the Saabs and if they are getting up there, what could replace them?

XJ has most of the newest 340 B+s off the line. Those are only about 10 years old.

Quoting Centrair (Thread starter):
Is it even profitable to use a CRJ-200 on a route currently served by a Saab? (ex: CWA is served by both Saabs and CRJs from MSP and DTW)

That's probably a yes and no. Yields to some markets (minor Canada markets come to mind) are stellar, but to a place like CWA, maybe not so much.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7551 posts, RR: 28
Reply 4, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 6242 times:

A couple corrections to your fleet list:
The SFA & SF3 no longer exist, the only model of Saab that remains in the SFC (the B+ model) that seats 34 (has 34 seats, but weight restrictions effectively make this a 29-30 seat aircraft)

2 models of the CRJ: CRJ-200 (seats 50) CRJ-440 (seats 44). In the future, most -440's will have seats added to become 50 seaters.

Avro RJ-85, last flight on December 18, 2006
DC-10-30, last flight January 6, 2007

Quoting Centrair (Thread starter):
How old are the Saabs and if they are getting up there, what could replace them?

The current fleet of 49 Saab-340 B+'s were all delivered new to Mesaba between 1996-1998. They were the last Saabs off of the production line. NW maintains the leases on the aircraft and subleases them to XJ, which run through 2012. The Saabs have plenty of life left in them, other than needed a paint job (other than 407), and new interiors (other than 414). XJ returned the last of the older A models in April, and returned the B models they subleased from Express I (Pinnacle). No replacement on the horizon.

Quoting Centrair (Thread starter):
Is it even profitable to use a CRJ-200 on a route currently served by a Saab? (ex: CWA is served by both Saabs and CRJs from MSP and DTW)

As said, on many routes, no. The economics do not justify the additional seats, added fuel burn/operating costs, higher landing fees, without any significant reduction in flying time. In many markets NW is the only game in town, and while they do command a higher yield, the Saabs significantly help since the operating costs are far less. The Saab gives NW flexibility to add/maintain additional frequency in specific markets. Take PLN for example, a high yield, yet highly seasonal leisure/golf/vacation/retirement area in Northern Michigan. In the summer, NW flys up 6x daily flights a mix of ARJ, CRJ, and Saabs to DTW. In the winter, this market reduces to 3 daily Saabs due to the huge drop in seasonal demand. NW will match seasonal capacity with demand using the mix of Saab/CRJ aircraft.

Quoting Centrair (Thread starter):
What could replace the 747-200s for the beach market or international market?
Would we see downgrades in capacity to A330s or 787s or even more 757s?

All thats left is NRT-GUM, NRT-SPN. The 742's are almost gone from scheduled passenger service, but are still used for a lot of military charter work, and of course the 742F fleet utilizes the same crews/maintenance. Once the 787's come online, the resulting shuffle of Trans-Pacific aircraft will remove the 742 from pax service. NW will use to flexibility of the A322/787/744 to cover existing routes and open new ones. These routes will not be downgraded to 752's though.

Quoting Centrair (Thread starter):
NW says they could use a 747-400 for DTW-PVG. Where is this plane coming from?
Are there enough 747-400s in the fleet or are we looking at abusing 747-400s?

NW has the ability to shuffle aircraft as necessary. Such as placing a 742 on one of the NRT-HNL or HNL-KIX routes, or downgrading LAX-NRT back to the 742 in order to free up 744's for this more lucrative route.

Quoting Centrair (Thread starter):
Could the 777-300ER be a benefit for NWA? Could it be added without many problems for pilots, F/A or ground? Could it replace older 744s and/or 742s?

Not going to happen anytime soon regardless. There is a lot of life left in the 744's. Long haul aircraft have extremly low number of cycles. The mix of A330/787 aircraft will replace the 742's, so no new fleet type will be used to replace their capacity. As said, now that new WBC has been installed on the 744's, expect coach to get overhauled up the A330 standards in the near future, including all new interiors and seats including the AVOD system. The 773ER is not a problem on the ground, at least in DTW, but it just adds another fleet type, that is not needed now.

NW has their hands full for the next several years including:
1) Receiving the balance of the A330 order (still 12 more to be delivered)
2) Receiving the EMB-175's & CRJ-900's
3) Receiving the 787's
4) Pending order for EMB-190/195's & additional A319's to replace remaining DC-9 capacity

Anything beyond that, is just not in the plan for now.

Quoting Slovacek747 (Reply 2):
they really need to streamline their mainline fleet.. I believe they could do it with the 748 or 773ER, 787, and 737NG (or whatever comes along next at that size from Boeing-737RS).

Huh???? Mainline is becoming very streamlined, it all takes time, and there is zero need for 737 NG's

Short-term (2007)
Regional:
Saab 340 (Mesaba)
CRJ-200 (Pinnacle)
CRJ-900 (likely Mesaba)
EMB-175 (Compass)

Mainline:
DC-9
A319/A320
752/753
A330 (-200/-300)
744 (with a few 742's)

Long-term:
Regional:
Saab 340 (Mesaba)
CRJ-200 (Pinnacle)
CRJ-900 (likely Mesaba)
EMB-175 (Compass)

Mainline:
EMB 190/195
A319/A320
752/753
A330 (-200/-300)
787
744


User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7537 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 6032 times:

Quoting Centrair (Thread starter):
CRJ-900* (86)
EMB-175* (78 - 86)

Each will have 76 seats.

Quoting Centrair (Thread starter):
Where is this plane coming from?

There are plenty of 747-400's in the Desert, including some that were originally built for Northwest.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 4):
The SFA & SF3 no longer exist, the only model of Saab that remains in the SFC (the B+ model) that seats 34 (has 34 seats, but weight restrictions effectively make this a 29-30 seat aircraft)

Right, but the booking on NWA.com and PARS still list all Saab flights as SF3.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 6, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5765 times:

Quoting DTW.SCE" class=quote target=_blank>PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 4):
expect coach to get overhauled up the A330 standards in the near future, including all new interiors and seats including the AVOD system.

That will be the day. Hopefully they can upgrade Y with something like CX's Y. That would be sweet.

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 5):
There are plenty of 747-400's in the Desert, including some that were originally built for Northwest.

How many 744s and 742 are active?
How many 744s are in the desert?

Then why isn't NW expanded even more to Asia? HKG and ICN non-stop from DTW could be done anytime.

Why did NW get rid of First class? They used to have it. I think it was called Imperial class or something.



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineFuturecaptain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 5719 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 4):
Mainline:



Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 4):
787

When the last 787 is retired the crew will be ferried back to base on a DC-9.

Sorry, couldn't resist a chance like this to make a comment.

The future fleet for NW seems to be a good fit and very well suited for them. It just takes alot of time and cash to get it to that point.


User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 8, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 5699 times:

Quoting Centrair (Reply 6):

Then why isn't NW expanded even more to Asia? HKG and ICN non-stop from DTW could be done anytime.

The 744 is just too big to do it profitably. They just wouldn't be filling jets from DTW-ICN and HKG. Plus, DTW-HKG is just like 7,900 miles, which is pushing the 744's range. When the 787s come online, I'll bet you'll see both of these routes, but they just couldn't fill a 744. Heck, they weren't filling 744s on JFK-NRT....

For the moment, they are just running that traffic through NRT. DTW-PVG would fill the 744 though. US-mainland china is huge.



"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7062 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 5690 times:

Quoting Slovacek747 (Reply 2):
737NG (or whatever comes along next at that size from Boeing-737RS).

Maybe 737RS when they are replacing their A32x fleet but 737NGs makes no sense when you are having a fleet of around 150 A32x.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 10, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 5677 times:

Quoting Columba (Reply 9):

Maybe 737RS when they are replacing their A32x fleet but 737NGs makes no sense when you are having a fleet of around 150 A32x.

No. Here's the NW fleet 5 years from now, bottom to top.

S340
CRJ
CRJ9
EMB175
EMB195
A319/A320
752/753
787
A332/A333
744

Not bad, huh? My guess is 10 years out they'll look to start replacing the A319/A320 as well as the 744s.

It's well on its way to being a very modern fleet.



"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7062 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5585 times:

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 10):
No. Here's the NW fleet 5 years from now, bottom to top.

S340
CRJ
CRJ9
EMB175
EMB195
A319/A320
752/753
787
A332/A333
744

And why would that contradict with my above statement that you have quoted ?
I just said that NW won´t order the 737NG as it was suggested and that I could only see the 737 successor as an A32x replacement in a few years rather than replacing the A32x with 737NGs.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7537 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 5522 times:

Quoting Centrair (Reply 6):
How many 744s and 742 are active?

16 747-400's active and 3 747-200's.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 6):
How many 744s are in the desert?

Of NW's, none, but UA has a few parked of which picked up some birds built for NW but I don't know how many are sitting in the desert.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 6):
Why did NW get rid of First class? They used to have it. I think it was called Imperial class or something.

Because there really isn't a market for First Class, most First Class would be upgrades, very few people actually pay for a full first class.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7551 posts, RR: 28
Reply 13, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 5441 times:

United returned some of those 744's to service. However, what aircraft are there have been there for several years and are not in good shape. They would require a significant amount of upgrades and maintenance to get them up to shape. They are not a viable option.

NW got rid of first and instead now offers World Business Class which is actually somewhat of a hybrid between traditional business class and first class. As said, very few people pay for first class, especially on NW route structure, and corporate travel policies won't pay for first, but will allow for business.


User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3178 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 5441 times:

Why do people think that the CRJ-900 will go to Mesaba? I thought there was a scope clause for Mesaba to not have planes more than 70 seats, the reason that the ARJ-85 had only 69. Are they only going to put 69 seats on the CRJ-900? I would love to fly that then, nice and roomy.

Did they rework a scope clause that allows Mesaba to have more than 70 seats now?

I guess I would have thought that the CRJ-900s would go to Compass, but then again it wouldn't make sense for E-175s to come to Compass, unless they are really going to configure the CRJ-900s to carry 90 pax and the E-175s to have 70.


User currently offlineAlexPorter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 5406 times:

Quoting Centrair (Thread starter):
5600 series 757-200s are getting (some have) winglets for International service (where to...well that is another issue)

It's my understanding that the 5600 series 752s are the ones that are registered N55xNW, the ones delivered in recent years. However, the one with winglets is N536US, a 5500 series 752, so I don't think NW is distinguishing between the 5500 and 5600 for the purpose of installing winglets. Perhaps the international 757 routes use both the 5500 and 5600, but the 5600 is the only one of the two to be configured differently from the domestic version, while the 5500 is configured the same for both international and domestic flights. Can someone clarify/confirm/correct this?


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22865 posts, RR: 20
Reply 16, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5367 times:

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 10):
Not bad, huh? My guess is 10 years out they'll look to start replacing the A319/A320 as well as the 744s.

The 319s should last that long, but I'm not sure the older 320s will.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineKingAir200 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1611 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5339 times:

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 14):
Did they rework a scope clause that allows Mesaba to have more than 70 seats now?

I believe that the new contract that NW has with the pilots allows Airlink operators up to 76 seats.



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