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KL/NW New Early Morning Transatlantic Departures  
User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4503 posts, RR: 72
Posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 6212 times:

Effective the 2007 northern summer schedules, KLM and Northwest are introducing an interesting new development in transatlantic air travel: the early morning transatlantic departure bank.

Apparently anticipating an expected drop off in the amount of connecting traffic through the AMS hub from various longhaul destinations in Africa, the Middle East and the Indian Subcontinent because of an increasing number of nonstop flights to the US from these areas, KLM and Northwest are trying to facilitate connections and lure connecting passengers by offering a sharply decreased transit time.

So far, KL/NW had been operating just one early morning interhub flight on the busy AMS DTW route, yet from the summer of 2007 onward, that number will at least quadruple with the introduction of early morning departures to Boston, Newark and Los Angeles. Here are the proposed schedules of this transtatlantic mini departure bank:

NW039/KL6039 AMS DTW 0800 1040 (A333)
NW059/KL6059 AMS BOS 0810 1005 (B752)
KL603/NW8603 AMS LAX 0810 1020 (B772)
NW063/KL6063 AMS EWR 0815 1040 (B752)

The introduction of these additional flights so early in the morning can only be explained by a combined effort of the airlines involved to counterattack an increasing number of nonstop flights to the US from destations in India, the Middle East and Africa by airlines like American, Continental, Delta, Emirates, Qatar and SAA, making the one stop option less competitive.

Indeed, there is virtually no European feed from the KLM regional network, so these flights can only be sustained by either local boardings or connecting traffic from KLM's early morning longhaul arrivals bank, which carries flights from the likes of Lagos, Accra, Kano, Abuja, Nairobi, Entebbe, Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Bahrain, Khartoum, Addis Abeba, Dammam, Doha, Mumbai (NW) and Delhi.

It will be interesting to see whether this new strategy will enable KLM and Northwest to sustain yields on increasinly competitive routes between the Indian subcontinent, the Middle East and Africa and the US.

36 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAirScoot From United States of America, joined May 2005, 688 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 6090 times:

Is there any word what the inbound flights will be for this or are they expecting a quick turn on the overnight eastbound transatlantics?

User currently offlineSR 103 From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1740 posts, RR: 39
Reply 2, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 6076 times:

Well this is certainly an interesting tactic. I for one welcome the change. I have taken the 8am to DTW before and I have to say, reaching Orlando by 1pm was amazing after a long night of travel from India or the Middle East.

I however doubt many people are willing to pay much more for a shorter transit time, but only time will tell. I on the other hand opted to fly back via the Pacific this January rather than take the traditional stop in Europe. It was cheaper!

SR 103


User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9780 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 5753 times:

As always, thanks for the interesting thread HB-IWC. It seems that NW will be using the 752 to AMS starting the summer 2007 season? The use of this smaller aircraft has to do with the increased competition from Africa, the Middle East and the Indian Subcontinent? Interesring.

A388


User currently offlineDZ09 From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 491 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 5736 times:

I do not mind flying with KLM from EWR to the middle east or the far east, I actually fly a lot with them from AMS, but they need to check their pricing scheme. It is so damn expensive to fly with them from the US.

User currently offlineFlyguy1 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1738 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 5698 times:

What time is the new JFK flight scheduled to depart?


727, L1011, MD80, A300, 777-200, 737-300, 737-700, 747-400, 757-200, 737-800, A320. E190, E135, 767-200, CRJ9
User currently offlineAlitaliaMD11 From Spain, joined Dec 2003, 4068 posts, RR: 13
Reply 6, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 5639 times:

Quoting Flyguy1 (Reply 5):
What time is the new JFK flight scheduled to depart?

I don't believe there will be a change with KL641/642 and KL643/644

The EWR flight is the one changing, KL657/658 is being taken over by Northwest as NW63/64 and will depart EWR at 16:45.

HB-IWC,

I thought that Northwest was only going to operate NW63/64 from November to March, has that been extended into the summer? I remeber reading that KL657/658 would be an MD-11 over the summer.



No Vueling No Party
User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5925 posts, RR: 40
Reply 7, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 5617 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Thread starter):
Indeed, there is virtually no European feed from the KLM regional network, so these flights can only be sustained by either local boardings or connecting traffic from KLM's early morning longhaul arrivals bank, which carries flights from the likes of Lagos, Accra, Kano, Abuja, Nairobi, Entebbe, Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Bahrain, Khartoum, Addis Abeba, Dammam, Doha, Mumbai (NW) and Delhi.

I think the early morning depatures get a healty feeder with the mentioned citys, + the local passengers (adding passengers from Belgium, part of germany, that are travelling to AMS via train or car) the flights should be work.



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4503 posts, RR: 72
Reply 8, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 5606 times:

Quoting AirScoot (Reply 1):
Is there any word what the inbound flights will be for this or are they expecting a quick turn on the overnight eastbound transatlantics?

That is an interesting question. So far, it looks like the 757 departures will be fed by early morning arrivals from EWR (NW064 at 06.10) and BDL (NW098 at 06.45) which would make for two short turnarounds, whereas the A333 departure to DTW is likely to originate in DTW as NW040 with an arrival time is AMS of 05.55. KLM can choose from a number of incoming B772s for its KL603 LAX departure.

Quoting Flyguy1 (Reply 5):
What time is the new JFK flight scheduled to depart?

That is so far unclear. The two airlines are currently pondering over EWR: this summer's capacity of one daily A332 and two additional weekly B772s would be replaced by just one daily B752 next summer. That is obviously far from sufficient, so extra capacity might be added to EWR by either KLM with an evening departure or NW with another B752 rotation. A potential third JFK roundtrip by KLM is likely to depart in the 10am longhaul departure bank with a return from JFK around 4pm and an arrival back in AMS around 6am.


User currently offlineFlyguy1 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1738 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 5607 times:

Quoting AlitaliaMD11 (Reply 6):
I don't believe there will be a change with KL641/642 and KL643/644

IIRC, the press release did indicate a new third daily AMS-JFK flight. This was to be made possible by NW taking over the EWR route from KLM.



727, L1011, MD80, A300, 777-200, 737-300, 737-700, 747-400, 757-200, 737-800, A320. E190, E135, 767-200, CRJ9
User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4503 posts, RR: 72
Reply 10, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 5585 times:

Quoting AlitaliaMD11 (Reply 6):
I thought that Northwest was only going to operate NW63/64 from November to March, has that been extended into the summer? I remeber reading that KL657/658 would be an MD-11 over the summer.

You are right. NW will take over AMS EWR on November 26 until the end of March. Right now, KLM is scheduled to take over the flight at the beginning of the summer schedule with MD11 for a month or two after which the NW B752 will fly the route. It is highly unlikely, though, that this NW B752 will be the only flight on the route for the remainder of the summer and it is not impossible that KLM will anyway stay on the route.

Quoting AlitaliaMD11 (Reply 6):
I don't believe there will be a change with KL641/642 and KL643/644

KL641/642 and KL643/644 will likely remain unchanged but current plans call for a third AMS JFK roundtrip by KLM once NW takes over the EWR route. This flight is likely to depart in the 10am departure bank. Nevertheless, as I said before, I do not believe that the AMS EWR route will be left with just one daily B752.


User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5925 posts, RR: 40
Reply 11, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 5585 times:

Quoting Flyguy1 (Reply 9):
IIRC, the press release did indicate a new third daily AMS-JFK flight. This was to be made possible by NW taking over the EWR route from KLM.

wow much capacity maybe to much, as I understand KL has not much conections ex JFK to offer...??



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4503 posts, RR: 72
Reply 12, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5403 times:

Quoting Flyguy1 (Reply 5):
What time is the new JFK flight scheduled to depart?



Quoting Flyguy1 (Reply 9):
the press release did indicate a new third daily AMS-JFK flight

The third daily AMS JFK flight has now been scheduled:

KL645 AMS JFK 1015 1230
KL646 JFK AMS 1610 0600

The existing flights KL641/642 and KL643/644 remain unchanged.


User currently offlineAF022 From France, joined Dec 2003, 2159 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5344 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 12):
KL645 AMS JFK 1015 1230
KL646 JFK AMS 1610 0600

That schedule dramatically improves connections from Africa and Middle East to JFK. KLM was completely noncompetitive before.


User currently offlineMEACEDAR From Lebanon, joined Oct 2006, 753 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5331 times:

KLM has dropped some Middle East routes like BEY, DAM, and AMM. I think these are 3 very important routes. What do you think?

User currently offlineFlyingfool From Netherlands, joined May 2005, 438 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5262 times:

Quoting MEACEDAR (Reply 14):
KLM has dropped some Middle East routes like BEY, DAM, and AMM. I think these are 3 very important routes

This routes are discontinued due low yields, so not really imported for KL, at least not that important as adding flights to North America...

Regards, Flyingfool


User currently offlineNWBOS From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 157 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5242 times:

It'll be interesting to see what happens with the BOS 757. Right now, it is scheduled to sit in BOS for 12 hours before going back to AMS. You'd think it'd make more sense to at least use that time for a DTW turn. That would add another 1-stop frequency between AMS-DTW. I just don't see the plane sitting for 12 hours. Massport will want to charge an arm and a leg for a parking spot.

User currently offlineBHMNONREV From Australia, joined Aug 2003, 1373 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5242 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Thread starter):
Indeed, there is virtually no European feed from the KLM regional network, so these flights can only be sustained by either local boardings or connecting traffic from KLM's early morning longhaul arrivals bank, which carries flights from the likes of Lagos, Accra, Kano, Abuja, Nairobi, Entebbe, Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Bahrain, Khartoum, Addis Abeba, Dammam, Doha, Mumbai (NW) and Delhi.

I certainly welcome this, as I use this routing quite often now from KWI-AMS-USA (usually the ATL n/s or BHM via DTW) and that short transit time is a welcome sight for travelling between the MidEast and the USA. The first NW flight arrives DTW around 10am so you can be connected and on your way by noon in most cases.

And from the Middle East KL/NW consistently has the lowest fares from the region so for me it makes way too much sense...


User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7565 posts, RR: 28
Reply 18, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5119 times:

AMS-EWR plans:
Nov-March '07: NW A330-300
April-July '07: KLM MD-11
July '07 - Beyond: KLM A330-200 & NW 757-200


User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4503 posts, RR: 72
Reply 19, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 5007 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 18):
July '07 - Beyond: KLM A330-200 & NW 757-200

That's right, and the KLM A332 service will likely move from the morning to the afternoon or evening, because the current schedule with a 09.30 departure would be too close to the new NW B752 departure at 08.10. The problem, however, seems to be the availability of slots and gates at EWR for a rescheduled KL657/658 AMS EWR AMS service.


User currently offlineFlyguy1 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1738 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4256 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 12):
The third daily AMS JFK flight has now been scheduled:

KL645 AMS JFK 1015 1230
KL646 JFK AMS 1610 0600

Thanks for that, what tye A/C will this utilize?



727, L1011, MD80, A300, 777-200, 737-300, 737-700, 747-400, 757-200, 737-800, A320. E190, E135, 767-200, CRJ9
User currently offlineAlitaliaMD11 From Spain, joined Dec 2003, 4068 posts, RR: 13
Reply 21, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4106 times:

Quoting Flyguy1 (Reply 20):
Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 12):
The third daily AMS JFK flight has now been scheduled:

KL645 AMS JFK 1015 1230
KL646 JFK AMS 1610 0600

Thanks for that, what tye A/C will this utilize?

Any chance we will see the 777-300ER or an MD-11 operating KL645/646?



No Vueling No Party
User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4503 posts, RR: 72
Reply 22, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3974 times:

Quoting Flyguy1 (Reply 20):
Thanks for that, what tye A/C will this utilize?



Quoting AlitaliaMD11 (Reply 21):
Any chance we will see the 777-300ER or an MD-11 operating KL645/646?

For now, the flight is planned to be operated with MD11, but a lot will depend on what is going to happen to the current KL657/658 AMS EWR flight, which might be rescheduled to an evening departure from AMS. If that is the case, the new JFK flight might even by operated with A332. The schedule is still under review, so changes are likely to happen.


User currently offlineAlitaliaMD11 From Spain, joined Dec 2003, 4068 posts, RR: 13
Reply 23, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3743 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 19):
That's right, and the KLM A332 service will likely move from the morning to the afternoon or evening, because the current schedule with a 09.30 departure would be too close to the new NW B752 departure at 08.10. The problem, however, seems to be the availability of slots and gates at EWR for a rescheduled KL657/658 AMS EWR AMS service.

I was pretty sure that Northwest was taking over the EWR-AMS route on November 26th, right? I'm looking at flying KLM to MAD via AMS and returning on the 25th it shows Northwest 63 on an A330-300.



No Vueling No Party
User currently offlinePA110 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2002 posts, RR: 23
Reply 24, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3699 times:
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Quoting DZ09 (Reply 4):
I do not mind flying with KLM from EWR to the middle east or the far east, I actually fly a lot with them from AMS, but they need to check their pricing scheme. It is so damn expensive to fly with them from the US.

Don't blame KLM. Its the twats at NW's yield management department that set tariffs ex-USA. They have continuously set their fares higher than the rest of the pack in naive hopes that somehow people will pay more, only to be forced to dump seats at fire sale fares at the last minute when the pesky public decides there are plenty of lower priced alternatives. No wonder NW is in the shape its in. Can't really find pity for KLM. They made their bed with NW, they gave up control of trans-atlantic pricing to NW. (slightly off topic, sorry)

The addition of the earlier AMS westbound departures will definitely be fed from early AMS arrivals. It would seem that NW/KL are finally responding to the criticism of lousy schedules on top of expensive fares. Now we have better schedules, and hopes that perhaps with the increased capacity, NW will adjust their tariffs. They might actually sell more seats at a lower target yield, but higher than the fire sales that plague their current pricing scheme.

[Edited 2006-10-15 17:58:06]


It's been swell, but the swelling has gone down.
25 HB-IWC : That's right. From November 26 until the end of March, AMS EWR AMS will be operated by Northwest with A333. After that, KLM will take over the flight
26 Bobnwa : Other than the fact that the NWA pricing people control the fares ex US, not one other thing you wrote is true. Please back it up with numbers.
27 AlitaliaMD11 : So I'm guessing on the 25th it will still be a KLM A330-200 and not a Northwest A330-300 as it says on the site?
28 HB-IWC : November 25 should still see the KLM A332 on the route. I see it in my reservation system as well, and the NW A333 only appears from Sunday, November
29 AlitaliaMD11 : I just realized that I would actually be flying AMS-EWR on the 26th, not the 25th. The MAD-AMS part of my flight would happen on the 25th. So I guess
30 Post contains images Lamedianaranja : For me personally that will mean a lot more early morning shifts when we start our new summer work schedule. On the other hand, for me and my fellow
31 HB-IWC : I think you are right, for sure for KL603. KL645, with a 10.15 departure should already benefit from European feed and will therefore likely fill up
32 Humberside : So the press release stating that NW was taking over EWR was inaccurate? So is BDL in the new early departure bank from AMS with few European connect
33 Joost : Just entering data into nwa.com (the flight is already bookable) and it gives me: NW 98 BDL-AMS 17:45 - 06:45 NW 97 AMS-BDL 13:30 - 15:30 For the BOS
34 HB-IWC : Actually, there are a couple of additional turn around patterns possible for the aircraft, as there will be 4 daily NW B752 arrivals and departures a
35 Dutchjet : The turn times are tight, but very should not be a problem.....CO turns its 757s (and some 767s) in about 1.5 hours at many European stations. The ea
36 HB-IWC : Actually, the AMS DTW early morning flight is operating right now with A333 and the flight seems to be doing just fine with very little support in te
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