Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Is BA Is Suffering From 'No-Turnback-Itis?  
User currently offlineBOE773 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 8751 times:

With the continuation of the 3 engined flight from LAX to MAN and the recent 772 flight with 4 injured flt attendants from TPA to LGW; it would appear that BA is suffering from 'No-Turnback-Itis'. Most likely the European regulations with regards to pax rights also plays a major part.

37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSQNo1 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2004, 687 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 8725 times:

Two flights out of the thousands that they operate every single day of the year. It doesn't really matter to be honest.

You seem like someone who puts a lot of attention onto yourself, for all of the wrong reasons, having read your previous posting about the two execs who had resigned and how BA was a failing airline.

Mods: Time for a permaban me thinks.

With Regards,
Alex.B


User currently offlineMainMAN From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 2097 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 8723 times:

Quoting BOE773 (Thread starter):
Most likely the European regulations with regards to pax rights also plays a major part.

A very large part, along with those precious shareholders.


User currently offlineDemoose From Canada, joined Mar 2001, 1952 posts, RR: 23
Reply 3, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 8725 times:

Seems a bit insignificant in the grand scale of BA's operation.


Take a ride...fly across the sky
User currently offlineBHXFAOTIPYYC From Portugal, joined Jun 2005, 1644 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 8691 times:

Quoting BOE773 (Thread starter):
4 injured flt attendants from TPA to LGW

How injured? I never heard this story. Assuming nothing too serious, and also assuming most BA crew are from the UK, if you were already on route far better to be heading home to family and friends than be sitting in hospital 1000's of miles away. That said, if they were that seriously injured the flight would have turned back.



Breakfast in BHX, lunch in FAO, dinner in TIP, baggage in YYC.
User currently offlineBritPilot777 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 1075 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 8690 times:

Quoting SQNo1 (Reply 1):
Mods: Time for a permaban me thinks.

Agreed  thumbsup 



Forever Flight
User currently offlineMandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6858 posts, RR: 75
Reply 6, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 8676 times:

Quoting MainMAN (Reply 2):
A very large part, along with those precious shareholders.

And also the INSURERS!

Mandala499



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineBHXFAOTIPYYC From Portugal, joined Jun 2005, 1644 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 8639 times:

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 7):
And also the INSURERS!

I thought about the medical insurance issue if that's what you're refering to, but I'm pretty sure BA would have a worldwide medical policy for all flight crew/FA's etc, so picking up the tab for a stay in a Florida hospital wouldn't be a problem.



Breakfast in BHX, lunch in FAO, dinner in TIP, baggage in YYC.
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 8590 times:

Quoting BOE773 (Reply 9):
several were badly injured - at least 4 were so bad that they were unable to continue working.

Do you have specifics on the injuries?


User currently offlineBOE773 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 8561 times:

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 10):

Sorry, I do not have any specific information with regards to their injuries.

Here is a link with rgds to the incident:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=247503


User currently offlineVref5 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 8497 times:

I'm certainly intrigued as to what extent their injuries were known to be as the incident unfolded, as well as the severity.

It's also not always apparent at the outset when an injury is serious. (This is one of the issues that first responders to a motor vehicle accident has to deal with. Some MVA victims may initially walk around OK immediately following an accident without obvious trauma but in the end, succumb to serious internal injuries.)

I have a hard time imagining that BA would intentionally fly 7 hours with serious injuries if they knew it was serious and occurred only 15 minutes after takeoff.

Procedures for dealing with serious in-flight injuries would have likely included consulting with a company doctor to assist in making determination for a medical emergency diversion versus continuing to destination.

It is also possible that injuries were initially deemed relatively mild but then became more serious or worsened somewhere past the halfway point during flight. But, this, I do not know because I do not have any real details of that incident.

I'm not a BA apologist by a long stretch, not a customer or employee, nor do I have any interest in suppressing criticism. I'm just a neutral third party observer whom is curious if there is more to the story than is publically known.


User currently offlineCrosswind From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 2598 posts, RR: 58
Reply 11, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 8420 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Injuries to cabin crew members due to turbulence etc do happen from time to time - an injury doesn't have to be serious or life-threatening to prevent a crew member from continuing with their duties.

In these circumstances, once the Captain is satisfied that the injuries to the crewmembers concerned are non-critical, he will normally ask those concerned what they want to do. In my experience, crewmembers suffering minor injuries will always elect to continue to destination rather then divert the aircraft...

This is especially true when inbound to home base...

In no way a negative reflection on BA, but more likely a positive reflection on it's staff members on the flight concerned who elected to allow the flight to continue. Had passengers been injured then it's a far more complex situation, and the decisions made by the aircraft commander and the company may well have been different.

The notion that the aircraft continued on a Trans Atlantic crossing with crewmembers lying injured in agony on the galley floor is laughable.

Best Regards
CROSSWIND


User currently offlineMandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6858 posts, RR: 75
Reply 12, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 8365 times:

BHXFAO,
No, non-medical insurance... For medical insurance I'm sure BA would have had that covered.

BOE773,
There was a paramedic on board to assess the situation, and the injured crew were consulted in the decision made by the captain... which takes into account safety consideration. The paramedic said it was OK to continue, so they continued. The flight also followed the US coast anyways, so, if the injuries got worse, they had plenty of places to land for a medical emergency (Greenland exempted from the "plenty" category though).

The paramedics in LGW of course assisted on arrival.

So, the BA 777 was carrying 11 crew, 4 injured, still got... 7? They'd still comply with the 1 F/A per 50 pax and the "mythical" 1 F/A per pair of doors (1 F/A per door on rear door) policy... (even with a second F/O covering the door). So, I see no problems... and this accident is definitely NOT a "No-Turnback-Itis".

Since you mentioned the topic in PPruNe, I suggest you read the replies there about the BA SOP on handling medical problems while on board (Satphones & Medlink), and the examples mentioned there too.

So, your suggestion of BA suffering from No-Turnback-itis in this case is utterly baseless and unqualified.

Mandala499



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineBOE773 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 8285 times:

The European passenger rights regulations that were implemented will have an impact on the decision making for flight continuation for European carriers.

User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4445 posts, RR: 76
Reply 14, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 8181 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I still find it amazing how easily people could jump onto conclusions with just about a journo title to back them up.
And I find it distressing that some posters are actively proving they have an agenda and that some so-called "aviation fans" chose to ignore that SAFETY is the first parameter any aircrew would consider.
I haven't heard anything about that incident but I could well imagine the sequence of events :
- A TCAS RA, a descent resolution and some FAs are injured.
- Now comes the time for response to the incident and evaluation of the situation :
1/-How badly were they injured : get a doctor or a paramedic and establish a SatCom link with base and Medlink/Samu for a conference..... Can the injured people be treated on the aircraft ? They are also my colleagues and I care about their comfort. Would they be better in a hospital and can I ask their opinion ?
2/-Then assess how the incapacitations affect the flight : enough FAs for an emergency or not ? -->Get the book on minimum crewing requirements... Get the purser to the flight deck and ask about his opinion on the service.
3/- Back to SatCom with base. Inform them of the decision and what will be required on arrival : medics, Transport, family...maybe a psychological help in attendance.
That's what happened on that flight. I'd bet my bottom euro on it.



Contrail designer
User currently offlineTrekster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 8095 times:

Here we go again banghead 

I have read the pprune report and it clearly states what happened in there, i take it you did not fully read before you posted this information

Signed
Annoyed a.netter


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7531 posts, RR: 17
Reply 16, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 7695 times:

Quoting Vref5 (Reply 13):
It's also not always apparent at the outset when an injury is serious.

The only suggestion anywhere that the injuries suffered by the FAs were 'serious' is by two people with no medical qualifications. Another passenger with medical qualifications disagreed and after examining and attending to the injured said that the FA's injuries were not serious enough to require that the aircraft turned back. The pilot then consulted with the FAs before making what obviously is an appropriate decision.

As for the attendance of paramedics once the aircraft landed in the UK this would be standard practice. It is a requirement in your own interests, for example, that if you are working in an office and prick your finger with the sharp end of a paperclip that you report it to the individual nominated as being responsible for health and safety in your work area. That individual if not medically qualified should then arrange for you to see an appropriate medically qualified individual as soon as possible. In this case this would be as soon as the aircraft landed.


User currently offlineBMED From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2004, 860 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 7695 times:

I have read the report and it didn't say that any flight attendents couldn't perform their duties. I'm sure that if they couldn't then the flight would have returned to its departure airport.

It might be true but unless you was there you never know for sure the full story I'm afraid.



Living the jetset life! No better way to be
User currently offlineFlyguy595 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 54 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 7558 times:

Quoting BOE773 (Thread starter):
BA is suffering from 'No-Turnback-Itis'

 no Im certainly glad you werent the crew on the flight becuase I know you would throw a tantrum until the plane was diverted becuase you might have a minor injury. cry  hissyfit 

I think BA should commend the crew becuase they contiued the flight. Obviously they werent paralized or knocked out bleeding from the neck becuase Im sure anyone would have diverted the plane imeadiatly. Maybe they spilt coffee on them burning their hand. While this could be uncomfortable Im sure they would have iced it and continued on. Sometimes they can treat the injury just the same onboard as on the ground.
 praise 

As for the Engine out scenario three engines seem fine to me Honestly I like three holers better (DC-10, 727 Fan cloudnine  ) still very safe the plane didnt crash, it didnt get damaged, it didnt cost BA a significant amount of money. The 747 can fly on one engine I think your chances are good.

Dumb topic Should be deleted  tombstone 


User currently offlineMandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6858 posts, RR: 75
Reply 19, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 6957 times:

LOL...
1. I don't care about BA
2. My experiences with BA are not exactly a perfect record
3. I don't join the "let's bash BA" bandwagon nor do I "jump on the Bash (insert Airline here) bandwagon" without a reason/data.

If you give me a blatant JAR violation, I'd bash BA with no hesitation! *LOL*

*grin*

Mandala499



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9097 posts, RR: 75
Reply 20, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5907 times:

Quoting BOE773 (Reply 16):
The European passenger rights regulations that were implemented will have an impact on the decision making for flight continuation for European carriers.

This is a false statement. Airlines do not pay compensation if the reason for delays or cancellations was due to "extraordinary circumstances". This is obviously not an ordinary occurrence.

Refer para 14 from http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/...erv.do?uri=CELEX:32004R0261:EN:NOT

Your 'No-Turnback-Itis' allegation is baseless, this flight and the LAX-MAN flight no compensation would be paid. In both cases they are "extraordinary circumstances".

Quoting Pihero (Reply 17):
That's what happened on that flight. I'd bet my bottom euro on it.

From what I hear, the pilots not being medical experts did obtain the best medical advice they could have received both from people onboard and from the company back home.

I agree safety would come first, economy last.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineMandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6858 posts, RR: 75
Reply 21, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5728 times:

Zeke,
Don't you mean Safety FIRST and economics SECOND? (Economy class is probably last anyways! LOL)

Mandala499



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineCadet57 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 9085 posts, RR: 30
Reply 22, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4921 times:

You know... Its rather funny that he starts yet ANOTHER BA/UK bash fest and he has yet to come back and defend his rather dumbass motives....


Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
User currently offlineBA777ER236 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2006, 278 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4721 times:

Quoting BOE773 (Reply 15):
The European passenger rights regulations that were implemented will have an impact on the decision making for flight continuation for European carriers.

Absolute RUBBISH!

Neither I nor my colleagues would ever make a decision based on this. Safety of the passengers, crew and a/c are always paramount.

But why believe me, I only do the job!



Flying would be easy if it wasn't for the ground
User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8372 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4673 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

BA has its policies but flying from LAX to LHR with an unscheduled stop in MAN on 3 engines was unfortunate. How much negative PR has this gotten BA ? TOO MUCH. BA has gotten panned in the press and should have stopped at JFK where another 747 could have been flown in from LHR to meet the 3 engined 744. That would ahve sounded much more favorable in the press and only gotten the passenger a few hours late to LHR. Being dumped in Manchester would have royally pissed me off, a nice smooth JFK to LHR subsititute plane would have defused me, FAST.

Would a Qantas Captain fly his 744 fully fueled from LAX to Sydney on 3 egines, I doubt it. He/SHE would dump and return, too much Pacific ocean to worry about on 3 engines.


25 Zeke : Funny you should mention that, as just a few weeks after the BA incident happened, a QF 747 did end up flying to SYD on 3 engines from the USA. No ch
26 BA777ER236 : You are not comparing like with like here. Setting out straight across the Pacific on 3, is completely different to setting out towards Newfoundland
27 LTBEWR : I have taken several flights between the NYC area and the UK on BA and have no concern of my safety with them then or in the future. Still, while thes
28 Jfk777 : BA777ER236, The raeson I sompared to Qantas is the obvious difference between flying over water(Pacific) and land(US east coast). Zeke, from Canada: T
29 Zeke : Not long after takeoff.
30 Post contains links BOE773 : Here is a link to another example of questionable no-turnback-itis. http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/cms_resou...aaib%20airbus%20a319%20budapest%22
31 Vref5 : Ah, a slight clarification: What you refer to as 'para 14' is only a 25 item summary of the scope and intent of the regulations. The actual regulatio
32 Mandala499 : BOE773, I'm sorry, I am not familiar with the accident details, but so far in that bulleting you linked, I see no "No-Turnback-Itis"... It only goes a
33 Ejazz : BOE773 I, too, have to wonder if you have an agenda here. When I am in the Tech/Ops forum your topics appear to always relate to RR and in this forum
34 Zeke : Clarification for yourself, a flight that departs on time and direvts is not delayed. A delay is "when an operating air carrier reasonably expects a
35 Post contains links Wrighbrothers : [quoteBOE773,reply=48]Here is a link to another example of questionable no-turnback-itis. http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/cms_resou...irbus%20a319%20budape
36 Trekster : We can all give it a rest when a certain member shuts the hell up and gives it a rest him-self.
37 David L : OK, second attempt... Too much bad publicity? Hardly anyone I know had heard of the incident. Those who had wanted to know what "the authorities" thou
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Upgrade From B763 To B777- What Is It Like From A posted Wed Jun 21 2006 21:29:33 by Brucek
Is EI Suffering On DUB-NYC? posted Wed Jun 14 2006 21:08:09 by EIRules
Is MagicBlue Flying From The Netherlands? posted Wed Dec 21 2005 23:11:28 by VV701
Steenland Has/is To Resign From Mesaba Bd posted Wed Sep 28 2005 16:34:09 by Isitsafenow
Why Is 5G 862 From YYZ So Late Into BEG Today? posted Tue Jul 19 2005 16:56:44 by UN_B732
Is Richard Aboulafia From Teal Group Objective? posted Sun May 15 2005 23:17:28 by Keesje
Is EasyJet Changing From LCC To A Mid Cost Carrier posted Fri Oct 15 2004 15:08:02 by BCAL
How Is Independence Air From IAD To ROC? posted Tue Aug 3 2004 22:49:07 by Collegestud
Is That Reduce From LAS-FLL 5 Weekly? posted Thu May 27 2004 03:41:21 by ScottysAir
Why Is Austrian Flying From Bratislava (BTS)? posted Tue Feb 10 2004 17:26:42 by Alespesl