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Why No US Carriers To TIJ?  
User currently offlineRobertS975 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 937 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 7262 times:
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Why does there not appear to be any trans-border service from Tijuana (TIJ)? Either from US carriers (AA, CO, DL, US) or from Mexican carriers? Yeah, I know SAN is just 20 miles north across the border, but that border crossing can take hours! It would seem that there is a large enough population base south of the border to support direct flights to various US hub airpoprts.

37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5008 posts, RR: 21
Reply 1, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 7204 times:

Maybe a few UAEx flights to LAX for connections would work, but I can't see much else.


Next Up: STL-LGA-RIC-ATL-STL
User currently offlineCoronado990 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 1597 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 7195 times:

I agree!!! And with SAN getting to the point of saturation, TIJ needs to handle it's own O & D.

You would think at least there would be service from TIJ on UA/UAX to LAX and SFO. And, at the very least, you'd think that there would be US service to the PHX and LAS hubs. CO to IAH seems likely as I have heard them throw TIJ around and lastly, I sure would like to see a AA MD-80 in there from DFW!!!



Uncle SAN at your service!
User currently offlineBicoastal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 7005 times:

It would be a more attractive proposition if they could clear US immigration and customs in Mexico as flights to the USA do from Canadian cities.

User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4028 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 6851 times:

Quoting RobertS975 (Thread starter):
Why does there not appear to be any trans-border service from Tijuana (TIJ)? Either from US carriers (AA, CO, DL, US) or from Mexican carriers? Yeah, I know SAN is just 20 miles north across the border, but that border crossing can take hours! It would seem that there is a large enough population base south of the border to support direct flights to various US hub airpoprts.

Even though SEA-TAC is further away from YVR, than SAN is from TIJ, YVR has a HUGE trans-border operation from all main US carriers. Enough so that US Customs has a pre-clearence setup (although Canada should set part of their Customs lines at YVR for From USA Flights Only--not fun to stand in line after a few Asian carriers come in at the same time with a few large wide-bodies--takes forever in line!). TIJ has enough people that it would be nice for those from the US that come in to do business to not have to deal with SAN and then the San Ysidro crossing.

Quoting Coronado990 (Reply 2):
I agree!!! And with SAN getting to the point of saturation, TIJ needs to handle it's own O & D.

You would think at least there would be service from TIJ on UA/UAX to LAX and SFO. And, at the very least, you'd think that there would be US service to the PHX and LAS hubs. CO to IAH seems likely as I have heard them throw TIJ around and lastly, I sure would like to see a AA MD-80 in there from DFW!!!

Throw into that a DL Connection flight form SLC!



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineFewsolarge From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 409 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 6812 times:

I'd say its time is coming. All it takes is one pioneer, then it will become de rigeur for everyone with a western hub.

User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 6797 times:

TIJ airport, while an international facility, handles mostly traffic to the interior of Mexico for people who can afford to fly.

A very large number of southern Californians, especially in San Diego county, will use TIJ as an alternative to SAN with its limited number of flights to Mexico. After crossing the border, it is a $10 cab ride (or at least it used to be - it is a guaranteed fare, however) to the airport.

Traffic in the other direction, however, is non-existent. There is virtually no market for TIJ-LAX or TIJ-other locations. The hassles of the international traffic (especially for a commuter airline) outweigh any potential revenue.



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineCoronado990 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 1597 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 6761 times:

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 6):
A very large number of southern Californians, especially in San Diego county, will use TIJ as an alternative to SAN with its limited number of flights to Mexico

Limited is right! I cannot think of only one common non-stop destination that SAN and TIJ share and that is PVR which is only 2xweek on AM from TIJ and only once a week on US from SAN. Even the SAN-MEX non-stop operates in spurts and only 2xweek when it does. We are kinda of forced into using TIJ as an "alternative" or go up to LAX.

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 6):
There is virtually no market for TIJ-LAX or TIJ-other locations.

Go to the Lindbergh parking lot and count the BC license plates and then we'll talk.



Uncle SAN at your service!
User currently offlineSJCRRPAX From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 6739 times:

Quoting RobertS975 (Thread starter):
Why does there not appear to be any trans-border service from Tijuana (TIJ)? Either from US carriers (AA, CO, DL, US) or from Mexican carriers? Yeah, I know SAN is just 20 miles north across the border, but that border crossing can take hours! It would seem that there is a large enough population base south of the border to support direct flights to various US hub airpoprts.

I suspect there is not much demand. Americans want to go to the resort cities, so why would they stop at TIJ when non-stop flights to Cancun are available? I have never done a survey, but of the Mexicans I have met living in the U.S., most of them came from Mexico City, Guadalara, or smaller cities much further south. TIJ may have grown to a large city now due in part to the new manufacturing plants there but in the past it was my impression that it was a border town that Americans drove through, and Mexicans stayed there until they could cross the border --- nobody really wanted to stay there. But times change and maybe my impression is out of date.


User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 6731 times:

Quote:
Go to the Lindbergh parking lot and count the BC license plates and then we'll talk.

Very true. But for Mexicans who can afford to fly in the U.S. domestically, it just makes better sense to cross the border and park at SAN (TIJ doesn't have much parking anyway!!) and fly domestically rather than do an international flight from TIJ.

Domestically speaking, SAN offers more choices to more places than TIJ could ever hope to capture with an international flight to a U.S. hub.

SAN handles American hub flights, and TIJ handles Mexico flights.



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineRobertS975 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 937 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 6666 times:
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Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 8):
I suspect there is not much demand. Americans want to go to the resort cities, so why would they stop at TIJ when non-stop flights to Cancun are available? I have never done a survey, but of the Mexicans I have met living in the U.S., most of them came from Mexico City, Guadalara, or smaller cities much further south. TIJ may have grown to a large city now due in part to the new manufacturing plants there but in the past it was my impression that it was a border town that Americans drove through, and Mexicans stayed there until they could cross the border --- nobody really wanted to stay there. But times change and maybe my impression is out of date.

There are many flights to non-resort destinations from DL out of ATL, AA out of DFW and CO out of IAH. One would think that service to TIJ, even if a CRJ or ERJ, would find traffic to support itself.

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 9):
Very true. But for Mexicans who can afford to fly in the U.S. domestically, it just makes better sense to cross the border and park at SAN (TIJ doesn't have much parking anyway!!) and fly domestically rather than do an international flight from TIJ.

Domestically speaking, SAN offers more choices to more places than TIJ could ever hope to capture with an international flight to a U.S. hub.

First of all, it can take hours to cross the boredr to get to SAN. SAN is not exactly close to the border anyway, a good 20+ miles north. Traffic THROUGH the city of San Diego can be terrible as well. Flights from TIJ to major hubs like SLC, DFW, PHX or IAH could easily get that TIJ originating passenger to any point in the US or even the rest of the world with good connections. If you have ever tried to cross the border into the USA at San Ysidro, the vehicle wait is a minimum of an hour and can be much worse.

The point of my original post is that there is a big hole here, the fact that there is no trans-border service whatsoever from TIJ.


User currently offlineSJCRRPAX From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 6635 times:

RobertS975,

I will admit up front that it has been years since I have been to TJ, so this maybe incorrect now (Maybe Coronado990 hangs out at the bars in TJ, but its been years since I was in the Navy, so maybe he can correct me)

If the Purpose is to go to TJ without a car (which you would be doing if you fly), than you can either take a bus or the TJ trolley to San Ysidero and walk across the border no problemo --- much faster than going through the airport. If the purpose is not to go to TJ but somewhere else than there are much better connections at other Mexican cities.

Has TJ gotten wealthier? When I lived in San Diego, the residents of TJ weren't exactly air travelers. I remember going there in my younger days with stacks of pennies I no longer wanted and causing a near riot as I would throw them about to literally hundreds of kids that looked like that got like one meal a day. I also remember hundreds of homes made out of Cardboard, and bars --- well I don't really remember the bars for some reason....


User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 6605 times:

Quote:
First of all, it can take hours to cross the border to get to SAN. SAN is not exactly close to the border anyway, a good 20+ miles north. Traffic THROUGH the city of San Diego can be terrible as well. Flights from TIJ to major hubs like SLC, DFW, PHX or IAH could easily get that TIJ originating passenger to any point in the US or even the rest of the world with good connections. If you have ever tried to cross the border into the USA at San Ysidro, the vehicle wait is a minimum of an hour and can be much worse.

Yes, I know from a great deal of personal experience that crossing the San Ysidro Port of Entry or Otay Mesa Port of Entry can be difficult and frustrating. San Diego traffic is also bad, although the 5 north is usually only bad in the mornings as commuters head inbound, or when a game lets out at Petco Park.

I would ask you this question: What are the passengers from TIJ that you seek? Tourists? Non-existent. They are headed to the Mexican Riviera at Mazatlan, Puerta Vallarta, Cancun, or Los Cabos. Business travellers? Not really. Monterrey is the business city. Tijuana residents? Not really. The few that can afford to fly within the U.S. will take the time and effort to cross the border and use SAN.

Also remember, there are international taxes that add up quickly - a TIJ flight might end up costing more than a SAN flight, and might not be worth the extra cost.



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineRobertS975 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 937 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 6581 times:
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Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 11):
RobertS975,

I will admit up front that it has been years since I have been to TJ, so this maybe incorrect now (Maybe Coronado990 hangs out at the bars in TJ, but its been years since I was in the Navy, so maybe he can correct me)

If the Purpose is to go to TJ without a car (which you would be doing if you fly), than you can either take a bus or the TJ trolley to San Ysidero and walk across the border no problemo --- much faster than going through the airport. If the purpose is not to go to TJ but somewhere else than there are much better connections at other Mexican cities.

Has TJ gotten wealthier? When I lived in San Diego, the residents of TJ weren't exactly air travelers. I remember going there in my younger days with stacks of pennies I no longer wanted and causing a near riot as I would throw them about to literally hundreds of kids that looked like that got like one meal a day. I also remember hundreds of homes made out of Cardboard, and bars --- well I don't really remember the bars for some reason....

Sure it is easy to cross into Tijuana, but it is very time consuming to cross back into the US. TIJ obviously has its share of poverty, but if there was air service to the US from TIJ, there presumably would be value to those who live further south in Baja California in places like Ensenada, Rosarito and even places like Mexicali. Poverty in Mexico is obviously not unique to Tijuana.

So far, I have not heard any real good reasons why TIJ is not served (nor has it EVER been served, to my knowledge) by one or more US carriers. If one argues that the need to clear US inspection and customs at the US destination is a problem, that cannot possibly be any more of a difficulty than travelling across the border to use the air service out of SAN.

The poverty of parts of downtown Tijuana is no different in many other cities in Mexico which support service from multiple US carriers. And there are so fairly well-off areas along the Pacific coast down to Ensenada.

Flights to LAX, SFO, OAK, and PHX would most likely be quite busy, and I suspect that flights on CO to IAH would work as well.


User currently offlineRobertS975 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 937 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 6574 times:
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BTW, just checked, and the population of Tijuana in 2005 is listed as 1.4 million people. Even if that figure is not particularly accurate, there is obviously a huge population center from which to pull passengers for any direct US service.

User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 6551 times:

Quote:
So far, I have not heard any real good reasons why TIJ is not served (nor has it EVER been served, to my knowledge) by one or more US carriers.

I am therefore going to respectfully suggest that you contact the airlines directly and ask them for their insights into TIJ airport.



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineTWA902fly From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 3122 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 6536 times:

Am i wrong in remembering MX A320 service TIJ-LAX that flew in the middle of the night?

'902



life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
User currently offlineMexicana757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 3031 posts, RR: 29
Reply 17, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 6522 times:

Quoting TWA902fly (Reply 16):

I too remember MX having TIJ-LAX service, but with the Fokker 100.


User currently offlineFATFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 5791 posts, RR: 15
Reply 18, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 6510 times:

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 13):
If one argues that the need to clear US inspection and customs at the US destination is a problem, that cannot possibly be any more of a difficulty than travelling across the border to use the air service out of SAN.

Except the aircraft, cargo, and crew would also have to deal with customs and immigration, not just the passengers. That slows the aircraft turn.

In terms of what might be coming, well a quick look at the DOT database turned up approval for AM to serve TIJ-LAS.
http://dms.dot.gov/search/document.c...m?documentid=376933&docketid=22916



"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
User currently offlineCoronado990 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 1597 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 6506 times:

Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 11):
Maybe Coronado990 hangs out at the bars in TJ, but its been years since I was in the Navy, so maybe he can correct me)

I assure you I Coronado990 does not hang out in bars on any side of the border.

 whiteflag  Okay, I went there a few times before I was 21. See what everyone is missing out there in SLC, DEN or MCI! Seriously, going to TIJ in my youth made me ready for the just about anything. Perfect for the world traveller!!! And where else are there two cities of such vast cultural differences so close together? (ELP/CJS is about it and it is only half the size of SAN/TIJ with no beaches).

Everyone asks what does TIJ offer? The same thing SAN does....weather. We do share the same near perfect climate.

I have studied past airlines in San Diego and the L.A.-S.D.-TJ route was a very popular Ford Tri-Motor route with both Pickwick and Maddux Airways. Both airlines operated in the late 1920's and early 1930's from the Ryan Airport near Dutch Flats north of MCRD in San Diego. Flights in Tijuana (or Tia Juana as they spelled it then) landed near the Agua Caliente Race Track before the TIJ airport was built. I believe the old control tower is still there somewhere.

I really can't believe there is no coach service connecting Lindbergh with TIJ at least on an hourly headway. I always thought AM would be smart and schedule a bus from TIJ to SAN as part of the airline ticket and then add flights from TIJ to resorts such as LTO, SJD, MZT, PVR and CUN. It could also feed the new service to Japan and make GDL, MEX and other business centers a little easier to get to from SAN.

It could very well work in reverse too allowing TIJ originating pax to board at the Rodriguez airport and simply board a bus to get to Lindbergh Field. The best idea I have heard, however, is putting a long term parking lot on the U.S. side of the border with customs and a footbridge to the TIJ terminals across the road. Couldn't be easier. A big plus would be a trolley route from this facility all the way to the Lindbergh terminals.



Uncle SAN at your service!
User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 6482 times:

Quote:
A big plus would be a trolley route from this facility all the way to the Lindbergh terminals.

Except that the trolley won't go into Lindbergh Field until a final decision is made on whether the airport is staying or going.

But that is a WHOLE other can of worms...

I know in 1986, AM flew MEX-GDL-PVR-LOR-TIJ-LAX on a single flight. This was the routing of the DC-9 that collided with a light plane over Cerritos.



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineSJCRRPAX From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 6456 times:

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 14):
BTW, just checked, and the population of Tijuana in 2005 is listed as 1.4 million people. Even if that figure is not particularly accurate, there is obviously a huge population center from which to pull passengers for any direct US service.

1.4 million sounds like a lot but we are talking Mexico not Canada.

You do know that Mexicans need a Visa to enter the U.S., and to get that Visa they need to prove they will return to Mexico, which normally means they must prove they have a job in Mexico that earns far greater that the U.S. minimum wage?

Do you know that the Minimum wage in Mexico is $3.50 /day, and the crowds of people that have flooded the border towns to work in the Japanese factories are payed about $10.00/day?

Also about 1% of Population of Tijuana have AIDS, and at least 50,000 people at any one time are there to try to figure out how to sneak into the U.S.

For comparison purposes, there is one flight a day from SJC to Mexico city, and Mexico City has around 20 Million population.

My conclusion is the market is just not there. So I will need to agree with PANAM747, maybe the airlines themselfs can give you a better explanation.


User currently offlineFATFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 5791 posts, RR: 15
Reply 22, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 6376 times:

Of course lets not forget there are roughly 250,000 Americans currently living in Baja California with many more buying second and/or retirement homes there.

Expatriate Americans find `gringolandia' in Baja California

Quote:
the Americans in Baja, who number about 250,000 according to one unofficial estimate...

As an indicator of Baja activity, more than 16,000 condos, houses and lots are for sale in present or planned projects, representing $4.1 billion, in the 75 miles between Tijuana and Ensenada, said Gustavo Torres of RE/MAX Baja Realty.

http://www.sanluisobispo.com/mld/sanluisobispo/news/world/15760567.htm

Gringos turn tide crossing border; Boomer retirees invading Mexico

Quote:
Over the past decade, the State Department estimates that the number of Americans living in Mexico has soared from 200,000 to 1 million (or one-quarter of all U.S. expatriates).

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...3LLOUG1.DTL&hw=baja&sn=003&sc=1000



"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
User currently offlineRobertS975 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 937 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 6323 times:
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Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 21):
For comparison purposes, there is one flight a day from SJC to Mexico city, and Mexico City has around 20 Million population.

But there are also flights from OAK and SFO as well.

Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 21):
1.4 million sounds like a lot but we are talking Mexico not Canada.

I do not know what that means... that population plus the surrounding region should be able to support a few CRJs to various hubs at a minimum. Look at what CO does from IAH in terms of service to non-resort destinations: Toluca, Monterrey, Aguacalientes, Tampico, Chihuahua, Durango, San Luis Potosi, Monclava...


User currently offlineSR117 From Mexico, joined Jun 2000, 793 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 6300 times:

The market, despite what some may think, is most certainly here. If much much smaller mexican cities with less business activity have flights to various US hubs, there is no logical reason why a bigger city like Tijuana, despite it's problems, could not. However, the problem is not the market itself, but that providing the market with a competitive alternative to driving to SAN could prove difficult.

The costs associated with opening a station so close to SAN would probably demand a revenue premium on fares. If fares are not competitively priced, most people would probably opt to just cross the border and fly out of SAN or LAX (yes, lots of Tijuana people drive to LAX for flights as well).

Airlines are most probably unwilling to go through the trouble of opening another station when SAN can effectively absorb demand from Tijuana. Unless they could do it at a low enough cost to be competitive with flights ex-SAN.


25 Fewsolarge : Well maybe that's the market that they need to target: business travelers, who would absorb the extra price in order to avoid the driving shenanigans.
26 SJCRRPAX : My experience with TJ is really dated so I hate to say these things about it, since things may have changed. Have you been to TJ recently, or are you
27 Kanebear : Go to MFE and count the number of NL plates... for whatever reason MANY people drive from MTY to use MFE. SAN is FAR more convenient to TIJ than that
28 Milesrich : Ciudad Juarez is a similar situation to Tijuana, and there, ELP does not have near the choice of flights that SAN does, and Juarez is much larger and
29 RobertS975 : I actually have been to Tijuana, and of course, my eyes turned skyward and I saw numerous domestic Mexican flights take off and that is when the disc
30 N1120A : Even that would be WAY more hassle than it is worth. People just drive or take the bus or train to Los Angeles. Tijuana and Vancouver are MUCH differ
31 RobertS975 : I can tell that most of the posters here have not tried to cross the border here. The pedestrian line can be over 60 minutes at times of the day, and
32 SJCRRPAX : Yes, it has been a few years. In the past if you were blond blue eyed you just waved at them, 5 minutes max. If you want to try this, from the San DI
33 Post contains images Bicoastal : Yes, your view of Tijuana is a bit dated. Yes, there is poverty but as in most developing countries there are many, many wealthy people, too. However
34 SR117 : Yeah, I grew up in a cardboard box and was taught by wild donkeys. We get it, you visited Tijuana and don't like it. But please, do not pass off thes
35 Ghost77 : It is said Avolar will go international, perhaps lets wait to see what they have in mind, they could surprise us!! g77 APM
36 Post contains links and images SJCRRPAX : It's nice you have a sense of humor, and I can appreciate the sense of pride you have for your home city. I'm almost tempted to visit TJ again, but t
37 Rojo : I don't think they will surprise us... I talked to some people involved in the project and there is no clear definition of what they want. They just
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