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Why Did DL Have To Pay UA To Start LGW-JFK Route?  
User currently offlineGilesdavies From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2987 posts, RR: 2
Posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 6561 times:

I have tried to search for this answer and cannot find it anywhere...

But why did Delta have to pay United for the rights to fly between London and New York?

Both airlines operate the route out of different London airports, and as Delta will operate the route out of LGW they will not be effected by the Bermuda Agreement rules, which are in place at LHR, where only two UK and two US airlines can operate flights to the US.

Maybe there is some further rules which I am not aware of... (Please tell me if this is the case.)

As long as a route gets local government and slot approval (as is the case with nearly all Non-EU routes), I thought there was nothing stopping a British or US airline flying from LGW to a US destination.

Also JFK maybe busy and slot restrained at times, but it I can't see that DL paid for UA's slots there. As slots do seem plentiful.

13 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26196 posts, RR: 76
Reply 1, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 6552 times:

Quoting Gilesdavies (Thread starter):
Also JFK maybe busy and slot restrained at times, but it I can't see that DL paid for UA's slots there. As slots do seem plentiful.

There are no slot controls at JFK, and even if there were, DL would have loads more than UA.

The reason DL paid UA to fly to London is because route authorities are set out by city for most places by the DOT, not by airport. This means that even if DL wanted to fly to Stansted, they would have had to buy a route authority off someone.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineN174UA From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 994 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 6537 times:

UA owns the slot for JFK-LHR. UA decided to sell the slot, so they and DL agreed. Under Bermuda II, DL has to operate the flight to LGW instead.

$21 million I think it was? Maybe that's too high.


User currently offlineOsiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3186 posts, RR: 26
Reply 3, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 6537 times:

Quoting N174UA (Reply 2):
UA owns the slot for JFK-LHR. UA decided to sell the slot, so they and DL agreed. Under Bermuda II, DL has to operate the flight to LGW instead.

Didn't UA get it off Pan-Am for a song in when Pan-Am went bye bye?



I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32211 posts, RR: 72
Reply 4, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 6519 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 1):
This means that even if DL wanted to fly to Stansted, they would have had to buy a route authority off someone.

US-UK is Open Skies for every airport except Gatwick and Heathrow.



a.
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26196 posts, RR: 76
Reply 5, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 6519 times:

Quoting N174UA (Reply 2):
UA owns the slot for JFK-LHR. UA decided to sell the slot, so they and DL agreed. Under Bermuda II, DL has to operate the flight to LGW instead.

Wrong. United sold their NYC-LON authority to DL, who have to operate to LGW (or STN if they want). United leased their LHR slots used for the flight to VS.

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 3):
Didn't UA get it off Pan-Am for a song in when Pan-Am went bye bye?

United got PanAm's Pacific Network for a relative song several years before they folded and then got their Heathrow rights after that.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineN174UA From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 994 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 6519 times:

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 3):
Didn't UA get it off Pan-Am for a song in when Pan-Am went bye bye?

 checkmark  UA bought from PA in 1991, and AA bought from TW. UA paid...I think...around $900 million in 1991. Someone will have the exact $ figure.


User currently offlineSpyderz From Canada, joined Apr 2001, 651 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 6481 times:

Under the Bermuda II agreement, only two airlines from each country are allowed to operate a London - US city flight, assuming the route carries over 600,000 passengers per year. Since Newark is considered a seperate US destination, only two carriers are allowed to fly from JFK to London. This was the authority that United sold to Delta, but in actuality Delta was really the only US airline in a position to use the route authority. As mentioned, since Delta are not allowed to fly into Heathrow, they were relegated to operating the flight out of Gatwick.

User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8094 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6409 times:
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PAN AM got from UA $750,000,000 in 1985 for the Asian routes, a princely sum for 6 L-1011-500 and 10 747SP plus the routes. In 1991 UA paid $400,000,000 for the LHR routes, a rich sum but PA sold too cheaply some have argued.

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32211 posts, RR: 72
Reply 9, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6400 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 5):
authority to DL, who have to operate to LGW (or STN if they want).

They could operate to STN regardless of buying UA's authority. STN is Open Skies. That is one reason why Eos and Maxjet fly to STN, because they can easily (in addition, to obviously, other reasons, like lower operating costs).



a.
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 6312 times:

well said spyderz.....................

User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26196 posts, RR: 76
Reply 11, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 6202 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 9):
They could operate to STN regardless of buying UA's authority. STN is Open Skies. That is one reason why Eos and Maxjet fly to STN, because they can easily (in addition, to obviously, other reasons, like lower operating costs).

Ah, interesting.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineOsiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3186 posts, RR: 26
Reply 12, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 6197 times:

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 8):
PAN AM got from UA $750,000,000 in 1985 for the Asian routes, a princely sum for 6 L-1011-500 and 10 747SP plus the routes. In 1991 UA paid $400,000,000 for the LHR routes, a rich sum but PA sold too cheaply some have argued.

Wow that Asian pricing sure looks cheap all things considered. As for the LHR price it seems more reasonable.



I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
User currently offlineDaron4000 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 712 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 6057 times:

I was actually reading about his in Hard Landing today and I thought the figure for Pan Am's LHR routes was 400,000 dollars.

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