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AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!  
User currently offlineJumbojet From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1159 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 11 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 29223 times:

The flight was AA 937 from MCO to MIA, an Airbus 300.

A little background for this story. My friend was on this flight and has a private pilots license. He enjoys sitting behind the wing and watching the flaps, and other control surfaces do their thing. In addition to being a private pilot, he flies as a passenger a lot on AA.

Today, during taxi to the runway, my friend is sitting behind the wing and watches the wing for the flap extension before take-off. Friend starts to panic because as the plane approaches the runway and turns for take-off, still no flaps. With one of the F/A's sitting in front him, he tells the FA about the flaps not being set and the FA reaches for the phone to the flight deck but then hangs it up w/o saying anything. My friend now is really in a panic as the plane begings its take-off roll. However, the A300 takes-off with plenty of runway to spare and after landing in MIA, my friend asked the pilot during deplaning why no flaps and the pilot said that sometimes we can do no flaps to save gas!!! However, the pilot did say that slats were used.

Flight was relatively full and we are talking a widebody here. I'm also someone who enjoys sitting behind the wing and watching the flaps on take-off and landing. From everything I've read and heard, I though that flaps were a must and I'd probably have panicked a little to.

After all, how many other people on the flight were looking out the window thinking, oh my god, there's something wrong? Is this something airlines are now doing to save gas or has it always been done? Anyone else here would have thought something was wrong? I got a good laugh out of this and thought Id share with you all!!

[Edited 2006-10-17 05:27:05]

154 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (7 years 11 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 29242 times:

If the pilot (or co-pilot) tries to move the throttles to full power, and the flaps are not in the takeoff position, he will get an audible warning horn.

User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 84
Reply 2, posted (7 years 11 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 29218 times:

A300s take off daily with only their slats, well their slats and their Krueger flaps.

edit: in fact, SOP for most A300 takeoffs is zero degrees flaps.

NS

[Edited 2006-10-17 05:37:03]

User currently offlineCarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2954 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (7 years 11 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 29171 times:

MCO has what 12,000 ft of runway. Some Japanese airfield that JL operates into have runways half that. Short flight=light flight, despite what you see in the cabin.

User currently offlineDL Widget Head From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 2093 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (7 years 11 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 29102 times:

Quoting Jumbojet (Thread starter):
Friend starts to panic because as the plane approaches the runway and turns for take-off, still no flaps. With one of the F/A's sitting in front him, he tells the FA about the flaps not being set and the FA reaches for the phone to the flight deck but then hangs it up w/o saying anything. My friend now is really in a panic as the plane begings its take-off roll.

I think your friend very much overreacted and probably caused some of the other passengers sitting nearby undue angst.


User currently offlineType-Rated From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 5029 posts, RR: 19
Reply 5, posted (7 years 11 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 29069 times:

I think the reason the F/A did not say anything on the intercom is that most pilots would be very sensitive about a F/A calling the flight deck and telling them that they have no flaps. This would be tanamount to telling the Captain how to fly the plane. If she had said something, I would not have wanted to be in her shoes at the end of the flight.
If you are not on the flight deck all you can do is go along for the ride knowing that your crew is knowledgable about the operational situation of the aircraft during the various phases of flight, hopefully.



Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
User currently offlineOsiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3192 posts, RR: 25
Reply 6, posted (7 years 11 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 29062 times:

Quoting Jumbojet (Thread starter):
my friend asked the pilot during deplaning why no flaps and the pilot said that sometimes we can do no flaps to save gas!!! However, the pilot did say that slats were used.

I've been on several flights that were flap less. It's not that uncommon. As long as weather and runway are adequate it's low risk and cuts down on drag (thereby saving fuel).



I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
User currently offlineIAHcsr From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 3433 posts, RR: 41
Reply 7, posted (7 years 11 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 29057 times:
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Quoting Gigneil (Reply 2):
SOP for most A300 takeoffs is zero degrees flaps

To reconfirm.. This is normal for A300s. I saw this alot on CO back in the day...  covereyes   eek 



Working very hard to Fly Right....
User currently offlineBoston92 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3390 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (7 years 11 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 29057 times:

Even if I had noticed, my idea of panicing is sitting as close together as I can, eyes closed, and having every single thought I have ever had or ever will have, run through my head.


"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
User currently offlineTsaord From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 11 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 28975 times:

Your friend is a backseat Flyer huh?

Next time tell him to let the Flight Deck crew fly the plane.


User currently offlineSpeedBird203 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2006, 295 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (7 years 11 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 28967 times:

Interesting post, I probably would of thought what's going on, As usually you are expected to see flaps activated before departure. But i would of not worried the crew know what there doing and they have all those warnings for different things these days, However i can see why your friend had that reaction, But telling the F/A Whew, If someone done that next to me then i would start the panic lol.


Metro Tower 135.0
User currently offlineCaptaink From Mexico, joined May 2001, 5109 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (7 years 11 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 28975 times:

There was not reason to panic, cause as someone with a PPL, he would be aware that an airplane can take off just fine without flaps, given enough runway. I have been on many many flights that took off with zero degrees flaps. The takeoff speed is a little higher if i am not mistaken.


There is something special about planes....
User currently offlineSpeedBird203 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2006, 295 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (7 years 11 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 28939 times:

Quoting Captaink (Reply 11):
There was not reason to panic, cause as someone with a PPL, he would be aware that an airplane can take off just fine without flaps, given enough runway. I have been on many many flights that took off with zero degrees flaps. The takeoff speed is a little higher if i am not mistaken.

Very true, i totally forgot about the part of him having a PPL, I think you would be suprised daily to how many aircraft takeoff without flaps, Now how often is it an aircraft will LAND with limited flaps? Is it rare?



Metro Tower 135.0
User currently offlineBaron95 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1335 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (7 years 11 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 28900 times:

Quoting Jumbojet (Thread starter):
My friend now is really in a panic as the plane begings its take-off roll.

That just goes to prove that a little knowledge can be worse than no knowledge at all.

Quoting Jumbojet (Thread starter):
After all, how many other people on the flight were looking out the window thinking, oh my god, there's something wrong?

No one. MCO-MIA is a tourist leg offloading all the Disneywolrd tourists from South America to their connection rides in MIA - they may not have much on their minds, but second guessing an AA flight crew on the proper configuration for take-off is not one of them.



Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 14, posted (7 years 11 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 28896 times:

I have seen this a few times at SJO as well, thanks to AA and their A300s, though I didn't know slats only T/Os were as common as already explained in this thread. Regular AB6 takeoffs at SJO only need about half of the entire runway length at most, though it can get a bit tricky when it's hot.

This reminds me of a previous discussion here, where it was mentioned that AA started using flaps on their old Fokker fleet for their takeoffs because of passenger complaints (though unlike the A300, Fokker 100s are perfectly capable of a takeoff in a clean configuration; and note that unlike the AB6, F100s don't even have slats).


User currently offlineWe're Nuts From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5722 posts, RR: 19
Reply 15, posted (7 years 11 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 28872 times:

Quoting Type-Rated (Reply 5):
I think the reason the F/A did not say anything on the intercom is that most pilots would be very sensitive about a F/A calling the flight deck and telling them that they have no flaps. This would be tanamount to telling the Captain how to fly the plane. If she had said something, I would not have wanted to be in her shoes at the end of the flight.

Every captain I've flown with has told me that if I see something that makes me uncomfortable, I should call and tell them about it. If I had one who was "sensitive" about me looking out for my life, I would ask to be removed from the trip.



Dear moderators: No.
User currently offlineAlaska737 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1063 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (7 years 11 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 28826 times:

you know i agree with your friend for asking the pilots and i would have done the same thing. sorry were not all A300 pilots but i do know that pilots are not always right. maybe if someone had said something on the air flordia flight out of DC, that could have been avoided. i have a tremendous respect for pilots but still they are not right 100% of the time. plus the only stupid question is the question not asked.

also i think i remember some plane crash where the flaps were not lowerd, might have been a DC-9/MD-80


User currently offlineRalgha From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 1614 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (7 years 11 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 28794 times:

Quoting SpeedBird203 (Reply 12):
Now how often is it an aircraft will LAND with limited flaps?

Constantly.

Quoting SpeedBird203 (Reply 12):
Is it rare?

Not at all. There is, in fact, a regulation stating that turbojet aircraft must use the minimum flap setting required for the conditions.

§ 91.126
(c) Flap settings. Except when necessary for training or certification, the pilot in command of a civil turbojet-powered aircraft must use, as a final flap setting, the minimum certificated landing flap setting set forth in the approved performance information in the Airplane Flight Manual for the applicable conditions. However, each pilot in command has the final authority and responsibility for the safe operation of the pilot's airplane, and may use a different flap setting for that airplane if the pilot determines that it is necessary in the interest of safety.



09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
User currently offlineBaron95 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1335 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (7 years 11 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 28720 times:

Quoting Alaska737 (Reply 16):
you know i agree with your friend for asking the pilots and i would have done the same thing.



Quoting Alaska737 (Reply 16):
respect for pilots but still they are not right 100% of the time. plus the only stupid question is the question not asked.

Really? So the flight is taking the active runway for take-off and you want the FA to call in with a question? What next? You think the flight is too fast on approach and you ask the FA to call about Vref? You don't see the harm of interupting the sterile cockpit in the most critical moment of the flight (take-off) as a safety hazzard?

Do me a favor will you? Unless you see flames shooting out of the engines or large pieces of metal departing the wing, just stay off the intercom.



Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
User currently offlineAlaska737 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1063 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (7 years 11 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 28609 times:

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 18):
Really? So the flight is taking the active runway for take-off and you want the FA to call in with a question? What next? You think the flight is too fast on approach and you ask the FA to call about Vref? You don't see the harm of interupting the sterile cockpit in the most critical moment of the flight (take-off) as a safety hazzard?

Do me a favor will you? Unless you see flames shooting out of the engines or large pieces of metal departing the wing, just stay off the intercom.

im sorry where in my post did i mention the flight attendent calling the flight deck. i said that i might be a little nurvous and that i would ask the captain on landing.

secondly i have no way of knowing if a plane is overspeed or underspeed on approach, considering i dont have an altimiter in my lap.

Thirdly maybe if passengers were a little more vocal about possible "issues" with the aircraft we could lower passenger fears and accidents. or would you like passengers to just sit back and relax when there is an inch of ice on the wing or terrorists attempting to hijack another plane? remember what they tell you during the saftey briefing, passengers are responsible for their saftey.

fourthly im sorry for asking pilots ''stupid" questions. i suppose its out of the question for a young aviation enthusiast to even attempt to be knowlegeable in his/her field of study.

Reguards

Alaska737


User currently offlineDIA From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3273 posts, RR: 27
Reply 20, posted (7 years 11 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 28595 times:

Just so you know all this flapless t/o talk isn't all hot air...


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Photo © Je89 W.




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User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11153 posts, RR: 58
Reply 21, posted (7 years 11 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 28518 times:

Quoting Ralgha (Reply 17):
Not at all. There is, in fact, a regulation stating that turbojet aircraft must use the minimum flap setting required for the conditions.

§ 91.126
(c) Flap settings. Except when necessary for training or certification, the pilot in command of a civil turbojet-powered aircraft must use, as a final flap setting, the minimum certificated landing flap setting set forth in the approved performance information in the Airplane Flight Manual for the applicable conditions. However, each pilot in command has the final authority and responsibility for the safe operation of the pilot's airplane, and may use a different flap setting for that airplane if the pilot determines that it is necessary in the interest of safety.

This is interesting...

I'm wondering, why exactly are turbojet aircraft supposed to use a limited flap setting?

Quoting Alaska737 (Reply 19):
secondly i have no way of knowing if a plane is overspeed or underspeed on approach, considering i dont have an altimiter in my lap.

You mean speedometer. An altimeter tells your altitude.



"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlineAlaska737 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1063 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (7 years 11 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 28496 times:

Quoting BA (Reply 21):

You mean speedometer. An altimeter tells your altitude.

thank you, i type faster than i can think


User currently offlineLawnDart From United States of America, joined May 2005, 970 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (7 years 11 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 28452 times:

Quoting 474218 (Reply 1):
If the pilot (or co-pilot) tries to move the throttles to full power, and the flaps are not in the takeoff position, he will get an audible warning horn.

A major carrier recently had a 737NG take off from an airport in the northeast, without flaps...accidentally. The warning horn never sounded (malfunction), but the flight lifted off because the runway was long enough, and the aircraft had gained enough speed. The captain filed a "NASA" report.

Quoting Tsaord (Reply 9):
Next time tell him to let the Flight Deck crew fly the plane.

The vast majority of accidents are caused by the flight crew.

Quoting We're Nuts (Reply 15):
Every captain I've flown with has told me that if I see something that makes me uncomfortable, I should call and tell them about it.

Same here...I was at the end of the runway once, and the flaps had not been set. I told the flight attendant, who did call the flight deck, and the flaps were set after that call.

Turns out the flight deck had forgotten to set them, because they had been given a complicated taxi clearance during that part of their checklist. Yes, the warning horn would've let them know, but they would've had to abort take-off and get back in line.

Quoting Alaska737 (Reply 16):
also i think i remember some plane crash where the flaps were not lowerd, might have been a DC-9/MD-80

727-200...MD80...just two I can remember off the top of my head...people died in both.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 18):
Do me a favor will you? Unless you see flames shooting out of the engines or large pieces of metal departing the wing, just stay off the intercom.

Any airline professional worth his or her salt will respect that some people have real fears about flying...and appreciate input from a set of eyes that can possibly see something their eyes can't. Does a copilot keep quiet when he detects something other than large pieces of metal "departing" the wing? How about a flight attendant?

In an earlier thread, I spoke about an individual I had met who had been a flight attendant on board the DL that crashed at DFW while attempting take-off without it's flaps set. He said he now has no issue checking that flaps are set, and if they are not, going to the flight deck and reminding them.


User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets87 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 11 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 28452 times:

Quoting Tsaord (Reply 9):
Your friend is a backseat Flyer huh?

Next time tell him to let the Flight Deck crew fly the plane.

Not necessarily. The flight crew can make a mistake regardless of what you think.
This was not a mistake by the flight crew but rather the ground personnel, but one of my friends was on a Dash 8, and noticed the underwing gas cap had not been pushed in (The wing was not leaking fuel, as the cap was on, but the outside door had not been closed). My friend pointed it out to the F/A, who notified the Captain, and they returned to the terminal to have it closed. The Captain even came on the intercom later to thank "the passenge" that pointed this out.

Quoting Alaska737 (Reply 16):
you know i agree with your friend for asking the pilots and i would have done the same thing. sorry were not all A300 pilots but i do know that pilots are not always right. maybe if someone had said something on the air flordia flight out of DC, that could have been avoided. i have a tremendous respect for pilots but still they are not right 100% of the time. plus the only stupid question is the question not asked.

also i think i remember some plane crash where the flaps were not lowerd, might have been a DC-9/MD-80

Thank You. Regardless of what some people on here want to think, pilots do make mistakes.
What if one of the passengers on the Comair flight at LEX, being familar with the LEX airport had noticed they were on a wrong runway, one that was too short to be used and wanted to point this out to the flight crew? Would these same people who are saying "let the flight crew fly the plane" be whining then? I would like to think not.
One of the passengers on the Aloha flight that had the roof sucked off noticed cracks in the fuselage when boarding, but chose not to say anything as she figured the aircrew knew about it and knew what was going on. Would you have told her "not to worry about it?"

Now I'm not going to suggesting passengers have the F/A call up the flight deck for every little creak and squeak, but sometimes it's best to ask about something and find it's okay rather than ignore it and it lead to a disaster. If I see something overly suspicious, I am going to point it out, or at least ask about it.


25 FiveMileFinal : Hey, whenever I fly and am sitting window, I always watch to see the flaps drop and the spoilers flip up. I probably would have done the same thing (c
26 Post contains links ULMFlyer : Interesting post indeed. I have mixed feelings about your friend's reaction. Obviously, although he's got a PPL, he's not A300 rated and I'd assume t
27 Ilikeyyc : I'm sure the passengers and crew of DL1141 and of NW255 would disagree with that statement.
28 Post contains images FXramper : Prior to push-back, take off power settings are set. The flaps shouldn't have been an issue. Hearsay...
29 Baron95 : My apologies if that is what you meant - by all means, after landing ask any questions you want - it will not affect safety. I'm sorry, but you are a
30 N754PR : Yay... another Aviation expert that has no idea what they are doing or saying. This guy could have delayed this flight IF he made a big thing about th
31 Post contains images FXramper : It's highly likely the flight attendant was even 'picking up a phone' to discuss an a/c setting with the pilot. An FA isn't gonna know what's right a
32 Baron95 : Oh and one more thing for your flap watchers out there... Most misconfiguration on flap setting, would be an issue IF the plane also lost an engine du
33 FlyDeltaJets87 : Let's see here. Passenger notices flaps aren't set for takeoff following pushback (when the flaps are usually set, at least on the flights I've been
34 CRFLY : Nothing to be ashamed of, it has happend to me several times on the AB6 taking off from SJO in the morning flight especially, but I've seen several vi
35 VEEREF : Advice to all nervous flyers- Instead of sitting behind the wing, sit in front of it. I am not aware of any large airline transport aircraft that are
36 Post contains images Gunsontheroof : Nobody. You could probably takeoff on the taxiway with no flaps and reverse thrust without hearing a peep out of your average passengers.
37 Post contains images AJ : The good old 767-200 could also be certified for a slats only takeoff, the -300 couldn't due to tail clearance issues. Regarding flapless landings the
38 Brenintw : Why would they be doing a no-flaps landing? Mechanical issues?
39 PeachAir : Or in the case of the 767-400, the throttles "snap" back to idle position as well as an audible warning.
40 GatwickA320 : I used to work on an A300 as an F/A and I too had a similar experience. Sat in my crewseat by the window I noticed the flaps hadn't been deployed for
41 UAL777UK : Exactly true, any FA that is concerned about anything, whether it be flaps through to an unusual noise, should report it to the Captain, prior to, du
42 GatwickA320 : From Alaska 737: I quite agree. Remember the Aloha flight where the roof came off? A passenger noticed a crack and thought best not to report it. Dryd
43 777236ER : Everyone suggesting that the passenger should shut up and let the crew fly the aircraft, G-OBME would still be flying today and 47 people would be ali
44 Ksonderling : What exactly are "slats"? Does anyone have a picture and/or definition?
45 FlyinTLow : The pilot is very much correct about saving fuel: When flaps at the trailing edge are extended, besides increasing the wing camber to increase lift th
46 ReverseThrust : A300's have an incredibly good performance and climb rate. Last week I flew on a Monarch A300 to and from Gatwick to Luxor Egypt (MON1942 and MON 1943
47 Post contains images MiCorazonAzul : There is nothing wrong with someone questioning what the pilots are doing. I always look for the flaps to be set for take-off. Had I been on this plan
48 Fanoftristars : Long ago I was on a SLC-LAS flight and noticed that there was a small panel missing from the engine. You could see wires and tubes inside. I debated w
49 Post contains images Flyingbronco05 : I wonder if he thought they were turning at the outer marker and I also wonder if he has logged the same amount of hours as a passenger as a licensed
50 Aaron747 : Are you sure your friend is a private pilot? Maybe it's time to head back to ground school if he's getting scared in situations like these...
51 Jerald01 : Years ago on a B-707 going from Chicago to Paris I noticed, of all things, a glove sticking out of a panel on the top of the wing just after we take t
52 Type-Rated : Right here you did.... She had phone in hand, so this shows intent to call, but she probably decided that this would not have been a great idea and a
53 SK909 : the only stupid thing, is that statement!!! Or the opposite!!! Well if you're an aviation enthusiast, do you consider yourself knowledgeable? I don't
54 We're Nuts : Patently false. Crew resource management is taught to FA's and pilots. We work together as a team in the sky.
55 757drvr : Type-Rated, As a captain, during the crew briefing, I encourage ALL crew members to speak up if they think they see something that doesn't look right.
56 AzoresLover : I'm not a pilot, so sorry if this is a dumb question. But I know there is a maximum tire speed, and since a no-flap take-off can be done but does req
57 Jahmike : The first time I saw this was on a CO Airbus back in the day. It did freak me out for a minute. I asked some of the mechanics a couple days later and
58 MCOflyer : People do take that flight for other connections. Not just for South America Connections. Wrong. Some are. As I am not a F/A but am very familiar wit
59 Jumbojet : My friend is not a nervous flyer, just a contientious one. He ony has a PPL and has probably not read the A300 manual so to his credit, give him a br
60 A342 : A question related to your story: Was the glove stuck between the actual wing and a spoiler ? I mean, when that one would be extended on landing, the
61 Pope : So in your mind, if the FA on the Comair flight noticed that the plane was lined up on the wrong runway, she should have kept her mouth shut?
62 Aviopic : It was you who said: In which case he should not be flying or even near an aircraft.
63 MD88Captain : Tell your friend to shut up and die like a man. (Insert smiley face thingy here.)
64 Aero0729 : Your freind is idiotic. Short flight, low amount of fuel on board, the aircraft was fairly light. Tell your freind to let the pilots do the work.
65 Aero0729 : Agreed.
66 Post contains images YYZYYT : I say good for the friend who raised it with the FA. For those who think it is not appropriate for FA to call in a question re. flaps, or any other fl
67 Post contains images Revelation : Wrong! In the Kegworth crash, the pilots had an engine failure, but shut down the wrong engine. They were limping along on the bad engine, and it was
68 Jumbojet : I see, so your a man of steel? If you reasonably suspect a series of events to transpire before a flight for a safe take-off and they dont happen, th
69 Jumbojet : you know what? a lot of you airline industry people really disgust me. Guess what, W/O the flying public, you'd be out of a job. God forbid an outside
70 Jumbojet : OK, I just got off the phone with Homeland security, the FAA and AA and have suggested my friend be placed on the no fly list. Hopefully this takes ef
71 Aogdesk : Quite a pompous statement from someone who probably has zero experience in anything related to aviation, with the exception of telling someone they c
72 YYZYYT : It just proves the saying: a little tough glove won't hurt.
73 Dairy : This is not the first time I´ve read (on a.net) from those panicing passengers in AB6 while flaps were not extended....I very often fly LH on their d
74 IFEMaster : I am simply amazed at the arrogance in your statement, SK909. I've been alive long enough now to know that Alaska737's assessment of what constitutes
75 Post contains images Larspl : alright people! just to make sure you don't get scared the next time we make a flaps-1 (only slats come out) take off on the A330.. It can be done!
76 Aogdesk : YYZYYT, Am I the only one acknowledging your pun????
77 Jerald01 : Reference "the glove": Yes, I think it WAS sticking out from under a spoiler. I remember it was bright yellow (very little blood coming out of it, as
78 BA787 : I might be wrong but I think you have your wirs crossed. There was an MD-80 crash caused by no spoilers (not no flaps) at Little Rock. Might be wrong
79 Aogdesk : Look in the yellow pages under "Anger Management Therapists". I suspect the tics are getting worse too huh??
80 BA787 : To be fair, he posted a question and told you about his friends experience. Whether his friend was right or wrong, its worth checking something. Aloh
81 GusNYC : A LAPA 737-200 crashed in Buenos Aires a few years ago, killing 69 people and taking the company to extinction because the pilot "forgot" to set up t
82 BA787 : I stand corrected. Didn't know about that one!
83 EXMEMWIDGET : I have been on a few F100 flights were the flaps were not used for takeoff. The Captain would give a P/A before takeoff explaining what was happening.
84 MD88Captain : Truthfully, the calls that come from the back about passengers "seeing" something are pretty rare and always addressed (in my experience). Most of the
85 747LUVR : SK909: You're one arogant SOB. You're a real piece of work on your cutdowns on Alaska737's post. I see that since you're an IT dork, you're also some
86 Jim650 : Has anyone been on a 767 with a no-flap take-off? Several people have posted here that this is also possible with a 767-200. I was on an AA 767 flight
87 BA787 : Agreed Patronising or whaT!
88 N314as : It was standard to see Air Jamaica, Balair, and Carnival A300/A310s to take off flapless in Miami (although leading edge slats were used). The A300/31
89 Post contains links Wukka : You haven't? I might also be wrong of course, but I think you may have your "wirs" crossed. There are plenty of "no flaps" crashes on the books. I'm
90 Post contains links GusNYC : Correction to my previous post. Sixty five people perished in that accident. LAPA 3142 (Buenos Aires, Aug 31st 1999. Interesting reading (the cockpit
91 Post contains images BA787 : See reply 82 old'un Eyesight catching up I see
92 VC-10 : Not these days. It is called crew resource management. All crews are trained to report anything they are unsure about to the Flt Dk. In the UK this w
93 Post contains images Jumbojet : Anyway, I want to thank all the people that responded to my post in a courteous, professional and respectful manner. Have a nice day!
94 Andz : I didn't read every reply but I recall the same mild discomfort one day on an SAA A300 departing JNB, I thought "no flaps, odd" then "the crew know wh
95 Bphendri : I allmost the same reaction flying VTBD - VVTS on an Airbus 320, though I did not ring the flight attendant. I too was a bit concerned that I did not
96 Peteg913 : Just a huge overreaction.
97 FedExMEM : It's all about noise abatement. They are trying to keep the people on the ground from complaining about "all the noise those big planes are making."
98 N757ST : And most of those are on older aircraft such as DC-9s... modern aircraft have config warnings that would alert the crew to any misconfig on the takeo
99 Post contains links LuckyEddie : The DC-9 does have a config warning, as did the Delta 727 that crashed at DFW. In both cases it did not work. I hope you are not an airline pilot bec
100 Rolfen : Would be nice of the flight crew to announce on PA that they will be executing a "flapless takeoff" to avoid similar panic situations.
101 Thomson735 : He was just making an observation, u know there are many times crashes may have been averted if ppl looked out of the window and spotted something, Y
102 Post contains links and images DeC : I agree. Give the man a break, many people (me included) are nervously looking out the window for the flaps while on ground and ready for take-off ro
103 Macnamara532 : Did your friend mention if the lavatory was working ok?
104 Post contains images Scramjetter : If I see something wrong I'll just say so, I don't care who is sensitive. If I don't like their flying I'll say so too: "Dude your landing sucked." I'
105 Macnamara532 : Wow! this subject sure has caused a big flap!
106 N757ST : I fully understand and use CRM, as it is the basis of our corportate safety culture, but passengers for the most part are ignorant. I see your point,
107 N757ST : You must be a pleasure to have on board...
108 MiCorazonAzul : are you kidding me? The man merely expressed a safety concern. How on earth is that a "huge overreaction". There is nothing wrong with what he did. A
109 Ckfred : I have been on AA F100s, 727s, and MD-80s that did take-offs with no flaps. It's a common procedure and does save both gas and wear and tear on the en
110 FlyMeToTheMoon : Last Thu I was on two OS flights (F70 and F100) that took off out of VIE w/o flaps despite the flight being full. But then again, we only went to FRA.
111 Pdxtriple7 : Weird... I had a dream about this happening last night. We were taking off and I realized the flaps weren't set and knew we weren't going to make it.
112 Post contains images FlyDeltaJets87 : I'm sure the passengers on Comair 5191 had confidence in the flight crew to use a runway that was long enough, but that wasn't the case. I wonder wha
113 Access-Air : Back in 1989 a friend and I were sitting at the end of the old B Concourse at Midway Airport and in front of us sat a Midway Commuter Dornier 228-200.
114 Post contains images FiveMileFinal : Hear, hear. I was gonna say "Holy judgment call there, Batman!" But you beat me to it. No, he wouldn't have. There's nothing wrong with asking a pilo
115 Fll2993 : what would an american a-300 be doing on a short route. I thought their only used to to latin america and carribean routes.
116 Jerald01 : When I'm flying the plane I want EVERYONE to speak up if they see something wrong... even if it isn't. I actually caused a -737 to abort a take-off wh
117 BatonOps : Amen!!! I hope I never have to sit next to your friend.
118 Continental : That's cool it tookoff with no flaps. I remember a few years ago when I took off from ORD in an AA F-100 with no flaps. I later read that it was quite
119 DualQual : Tell that to the pilots of NW255. That aside, less flap can mean better climb performance as well. I know of at least one airline that does flap 1 ta
120 Post contains images Awthompson : I am glad that this topic has been posted at last. I had intended to start a similar one as soon as I got the time. Actually I am surprised that this
121 Socalfive : Tell that to everybody that died in Detroit on the NW MD80 that day in 87. No, you're as idiotic as it gets. Exactly right, in spades.
122 AT777 : I was on a flight from MCO-CLT on a USAirways 757 that took off without any flaps. We took off from south to north with plenty of runway left and it w
123 Macnamara532 : I think I might be concerned if the flaps were up, but the pilot was missing.
124 Post contains images Awthompson : Search the A300 on this site and you will find that the NON use of trailing edge flaps for take off is just as comon an occurence as using them. Here
125 ANNOYEDFA : Actually to everyone who said he should mind his business. That plane IS our business and thats the reason we have crew resource management training.
126 Post contains images Utapao : Not to be critical, but I couldn't help but laugh at the fact that the thread subject line sounded just like some of the media headlines or reporter s
127 MD88Captain : "Plane takes off wings freeze half the people die" ??? "insidents" ??? You are annoying me. Spell check would have helped with "insidents". I guess it
128 Post contains images MiCorazonAzul : and this is suppose to be common knowledge? I knew about the DC9's taking off without flaps but not A300s. Too bad this guy didn't have a laptop hand
129 Post contains links IFEMaster : You have no idea what you're talking about...try the MD-82 that crashed in Venezuela because of ice build up. http://www.globalaviationlaw.com/accide
130 Post contains links DeC : Why would someone do that? Here, because most people are too busy shouting to each other but to answer a simple question and actually help someone le
131 Aviopic : You don't have to worry about my nerves indeed although they are not made of steel. However the most essential part of pilot training is to avoid pan
132 Jumbojet : friend has a PPL not a commercial license. as for you, your an insensitive pri** why dont you just avoid the topic if you dont have anything USEFUL t
133 MD88Captain : The wings are always "freezing". It is like -42C at altitude. It is lack of lift due to ice build-up that causes mishaps. And the incident in Venezuel
134 Braniff1960 : I have been flying for 30 years and have NEVER taken off without flaps. I would have gotten out of my seat and ran up to the cockpit door and started
135 Alaska737 : Since this is "civil" aviation and since other people have already said what I was about to say I will not be articulating my severe and ruthless fee
136 N757ST : If you were ever on my flight and did that I would have you arrested. Thats just about the most immature idiotic thing I have ever read...[Edited 200
137 Post contains images IFEMaster : No! You don't say? Well, bugger me, I thought it was always a balmy 20C up there at 36,000ft. Pal, you're arguing semantics. You know full well that
138 Post contains images PEK18R36L : Since after all of this debate we cannot seem to come to an agreement on principle, I'm going to make this a matter of preference. For any of you pro
139 Post contains images GatwickA320 : From JumboJet: In a word, no! I found out for myself after take off. To be honest it's probably enthusiasts like me that would have noticed it anyway.
140 Post contains links DeC : Indeed. http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19880831-2 Busy talking to the chick F/A instead of actually flying the plane. Listen yours
141 Miamiair : If I remember correctly, the minimum flap setting for takeoff on the 727 is 5 degrees. There is no 0 flap but leading edge devices setting. The flap
142 Post contains links and images Aviopic : My addition is very usefull as a well meant advice, harsh maybe but still well meant. Being a close formation Air to Air photographer my existence is
143 FiveMileFinal : Congratulations on your experience, training and photos. You're still not infallible. That's why an extra pair of eyes is never a bad thing. Somebody
144 Post contains images EWS : I flew with Onur last year on their A300's and departed flapless.. Quite a experience to the knowledagable person.. but to some regular traveller, suc
145 XXXX10 : Forgive me if it's already been mentioned but the Fokker 100 can take off without flaps and it has no slats. I don't undersand why the pilots don't in
146 Access-Air : I have also watched DC9-30s depart with Zero flaps from OHare.... Also I too have experienced a No Flap takeoff on an American Fokker F-100.... Access
147 Qslinger : Whats a slat and krueger flaps?
148 Post contains links YYZYYT : Um, I assume that was sarcasm. RE: Zero Flaps T/o And/or Landing (See Picture!) (by Ambasaid Jun 28 2001 in Civil Aviation)?searchid=507914&s=zero+fl
149 Post contains links DeC : Read the full page at: http://www.b737.org.uk/flightcontrols.htm
150 Cschleic : One was a Northwest MD-80 leaving MSP for Vegas. They tried to take off without the leading edge slats lowered; don't know about the flap configurati
151 L1011Lover : Well that´s nonsense. In fact FA´s are trained, expected and required to call the flight deck during any phase of the flight if they notice somethi
152 Mandala499 : Good Cabin & Cockpit Crew coordination and teamwork is VITAL to a safe flight. Failures of which are: -> Kegworth -> Dryden -> Saudi Tristar Fire Othe
153 Shamrock_747 : I absolutely agree with what's being said about CRM and think it extends to passengers too. On my flights passengers often make comments about things
154 Lewis : Its very usual for the A300 to take off with no flaps. Even without them it climbs like a rocket. On all my A300 flights with OA I have never experien
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