1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6234 posts, RR: 2 Reply 2, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 9553 times:
Quoting Dalb777 (Reply 1): The 757s from AA is old news, but thanks for the article, interesting read. This is the first I have heard of some non-ER 763s getting ETOPS rated. And more 764s to international destinations!
While it is nice to have more 767-400ERs on international destinations, I hope that Delta doesn't completely elimnate them from West Coast/SLC-HNL flying. The 767-400ER is a much nicer aircraft than the 767-300, thanks to its Boeing Signature Interior. Even though some of the 767-300s have the newly-refurbished interior, the overhead bins still look outdated. The only Hawaii routes that the non-ER 767-300s cannot fly are ATL-HNL and CVG-HNL. The last time I flew on the 767-400ER was last summer on SLC-ATL. This could perhaps be my last domestic flight on a 767-400ER.
[Edited 2006-10-17 22:10:30]
The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
WorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 9486 times:
DL does have 4 763s that are equipped w/ PW 4060s but are minus a fuel tank that could make them ERs.
It is probably more likely than not that if DL's int'l expansion continues to do well that DL will convert those 4 763s to ER and use them for east-coast to Hawaii flights.
Right now, DL still has 13 764s beyond the initial 8 conversions for next summer to deploy on top of the 757s that are coming. DL still has a huge amount of int'l expansion potential left based on its fleet.
MCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8600 posts, RR: 13 Reply 5, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 9428 times:
HAL aquired 3 ex DL 763 non ER a/c. They use them on destinations to the West coast.
DL could easily convert 6 or 8 763 to ER status and upgrade them to ETOPS standards making them 763ER.
In my opinion, DL will probaly convert all of its 763 a/c to ETOPS standard and convert most to ER status. Thats my guess b/c DL needs more 767's to expand and this is where they're going to get them from.
WorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 9374 times:
There is a difference between ER and ETOPS. ER means it has about 50K more take-off weight and higher engines, meaning they can fly flights out to 12 hrs. DL is not going to do this to its current domestic 763s. ETOPS means the aircraft can fly extended over water flights (or w/o a suitable alternate which doesn't have to mean overwater but usually it does). DL may do that to a number of 763s but there is no need to do that to all of its 763s unless it is a pretty low cost upgrade to facilitate fleet rotation and maintenance. DL will use the majority of its 763 fleet over land within N. America which doesn't require being ETOPS or ER.
DL doesn't need its whole 767 fleet as ERs. They did say in their int'l announcements last week that JFK-SNN next summer would be operated with a 763 ETOPS conversion (not ER).
SvenvdM From Germany, joined Dec 2000, 209 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 9278 times:
Unfortunately I can't provide a source but I once read ages ago that airlines like to do ETOPS maintenance even though it is not required because it increases reliability of the aircraft and thus dispatch rates.
Panamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4713 posts, RR: 26 Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 9249 times:
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 3): Right now, DL still has 13 764s beyond the initial 8 conversions for next summer
The number of 764s being used for international I think has been confusingly reported in multiple places so far. In the above link from the thread starter, it states that by summer 2007, another 7 764s will be moved to international service and by then, Delta would have "moved 20 767-400s to international flying since early 2006". 20 is clearly incorrect as they only have 21 764s.
The following press release from Delta announcing the new OTP/PSA/ICN/DXB/VIE/PRG flights states that by next summer, another 7 764s would be transitioned to international, "bringing to 20 the number of aircraft moved from domestic to international flying since spring 2006".
This means that by summer 2007, there will be 12 764s flying international (since the 20 includes 8 domestic 763ERs already converted this past summer); there were 5 764s flying ATL-LGW/SNN/FCO and JFK-Ireland/MAN this past summer.
What's not clear is whether all 12 will be converted to international configuration by then - I doubt that as DL will probably have a few domestic 764s plying international again next summer (like ATL-LGW and ATL-FCO).
So by early 2008, the international-capable fleet will look like this:
FLALEFTY From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 395 posts, RR: 3 Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 9217 times:
Checking the production list for the non-ER 763s for DL, they range in age from 18 to 20 years. Those are pretty old frames for ER upgrades, since they will probably be nearing retirement age in the next 5 to 7 years.
Simply getting ETOPS certs (which is largely procedural, training and maintenance-oriented) for the existing fleet would make them good to go from most of DL's Western European routes out of JFK, as well as from SLC to HNL.
Keep in mind Delta still has four 757s that came from ATA, which were also for ER aircraft. They still have the HMG, though it has been deactivated. I see no reason Delta could not convert these back to ETOPs configuration.
NikonDFW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 13, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 9166 times:
Quoting FLALEFTY (Reply 11): Simply getting ETOPS certs (which is largely procedural, training and maintenance-oriented) for the existing fleet would make them good to go from most of DL's Western European routes out of JFK, as well as from SLC to HNL
One thing to keep in mind is that DL's nonER 767-332's all have the smaller front cargo door, which limits the size of cargo that can be loaded onto these planes. Not being able to carry large cargo pallets may prove difficult on long thin passanger routes where freight can offset lower passanger yields.
1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6234 posts, RR: 2 Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 8873 times:
Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 14): I dont mean to change the subject but are there any 767's with PTV's in economy or are they too old to have had from the begining?
On the domestic 767-300s, Delta is installing the Song IFE. Delta is also installing PTVs on the international 767-400ERs, but not on the international 767-300ERs.
BTW, most of the non-ER 767-300 fleet is powered by GE CF6-80A engines, which means that a conversion to a 767-300ER would require new engines, and I don't think Delta would spend the money on new engines.
The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
WorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 17, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 8740 times:
DL is converting 8 764s to Business Elite configs for summer 2007. I presume they are saying 7 because 1 will be held for maintenance and a spare.
DL used approx 5 764s in domestic first/coach config on transatlantic routes in 2006 and have said they will use another 4-5 for 2007. I do not consider those as int'l aircraft because they spend the majority of the year on the domestic system. There are still 13 764s that could be converted after the first batch of 8.
The 763s are not intended to become heavily used on transatlantic use. At best, they would be used for JFK to Ireland and the UK and only to provide add'l capacity during the summer... just like the 764s do for continental Europe. The non-ER 763s don't have the range to do much of Europe and probably are not useable from ATL or CVG.
They do have smaller cargo doors but the intention is for them to provide SUPPLEMENTAL capacity during the summer when loads are high. Other flights already have ER aircraft with large cargo doors.
The nonER 763s also have early model CF6 engines so they are not ideal for heavy flights... again they will provide extra lift during the summer. I would guess no more than 2-3 of these aircraft will be used on the transatlantic system.
The 757s will provide a significant amount of add'l capacity in 2008, some of which could replace some 763ERs, freeing them up for longer haul use. So, yes, DL has only deployed about half of its deployable int'l fleet and will likely have a large int'l expansion in 2008. (like 2006 and 7 have not been LARGE). It remains to be seen how many 764s DL will convert for 08 but the success of the 07 expansion probably will dictate how many more 764s will be converted. Personally, I think DL's 07 summer expansion has less risk than the 06 expansion did so I fully expect to keep seeing the 767s move from domestic to int'l.
DL has also made it known that some of these 752s will go to revive SLC-KOA as well as perhaps LAX or SFO-KOA and SLC-OGG. While the majority of them will go to NYC-JFK to lesser yield yet profitable European stops, getting the most efficient service to the Hawaiian Islands from SLC and the west coast is a priority for these aircraft as well for DL.
Quoting FLALEFTY (Reply 11): Simply getting ETOPS certs (which is largely procedural, training and maintenance-oriented) for the existing fleet would make them good to go from most of DL's Western European routes out of JFK, as well as from SLC to HNL.
I think SLC-HNL will stay on a 763 or 764 unless they get more 752s which would mean a frequency increase if they did use any 752s on SLC-HNL.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
ChrisNH From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 3914 posts, RR: 2 Reply 23, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 7099 times:
Quoting FXramper (Reply 8): Yesir. Very good pick up. We are talking to AA about getting 757s. Here's to hoping.
I was thinking the same thing. Why help a competitor when you can do the 'safe' thing and sell them to a cargo carrier? Perhaps the deal between AA/DL was consumated before FedEx expressed an interest in the 757?
DeltaDAWG From United States of America, joined May 2006, 716 posts, RR: 1 Reply 24, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 6557 times:
Does anyone think that Boeing is foaming at the mouth waiting for DL to exit bankruptcy? I mean DL typicallydoes a great job of upkeep on the a/c but the 763's are starting to get a bit long in the tooth and a very significant 787 order can't be more than 1-1/2 to 2 years away. By the tie DL places an order their slots would have to be somewhere around 2012-2014 i would think. That would put most of the 767 fleet at 20+ years in age. The 757's are far behind either.
GO Dawgs, Sic' em, woof woof woof
25 Okie73: I am assuming you are talking about the 757s DL is getting that are currently flown by AA. That deal is not between AA and DL. The deal is between th
26 WorldTraveler: DL's 757s and 767s are far younger than 20 years. The average age of DL’s 763 (nonER) flet is 15 years. The 763ERs are on average 10 years old. And
27 SLCUT2777: That could be said during the dark ages of the reign of terror of Leo (Mullin), but nowadays, Grinstien, Whitehurst and Bastian have all made sure th
28 Okie73: no stoning. You are right. The last 88/90 will be gone long before the 757.
29 SLCUT2777: Aside from getting a 787 order in place that GRADUALLY replaces some older 763s, the MD-88/90 replacement will be DL's next critical fleet acquisitio
30 DAL767400ER: $50 on the 737RS as an MD and 757/738 replacement.
31 SLCUT2777: According to their website DL still has options/rolling options for 150 more 738s, which could be converted to the 737RS, but the MDs WILL BE the fir
32 ScottB: That's not shocking at all; the MD-90's are now the least numerous type in the fleet (aside from the indispensable 777-200ER's) while the MD-88 fleet
33 SLCUT2777: Not just in capacity or range, but also keep in mind the MD-88 has limits in higher altitude locations out west like SLC. Only on occasion will you s
34 RobertS975: I don't know about a paradigm shift since DL has been a heavy Boeing user since the 727 and that continued with the 757,767 and 737 (some inherited,
35 Okie73: Delta did take delivery of some new A-310s that were orders Pan Am had made. But Delta never ordered an Airbus airplane.
36 WorldTraveler: DL did in fact order replacement A310s for some of the crappiest A310s inherited from Pan Am. Airbus built I believe 7 of them for DL and they were mu
37 SLCUT2777: Keep in mind DL ordered the DC-8 and DC-9 instead of the Boeing 707 or 727 during the 1960s. They didn't get into the 727 until 1972 when they inheri
38 Okie73: I was told that Delta converted some options left over from Pan Am, but never ordered any more. But I won't argue, cause my source is certainly no ex
39 WorldTraveler: The point is that DL did take new delivery of A310s from Airbus and they did in fact negotiate the terms of acquiring them. Airbus certainly didn't of
40 SLCUT2777: Both DL and AA knew the 777 was in development over at Boeing. In the case of both carriers it would have been better to wait it out and in the insta
41 BOE773: It's great that Delta are adding more Pratt powered 57s to their existing fleet. LOVE THOSE PRATTS.
42 WorldTraveler: But the 777 and every other twin engine aircraft was not accepted as a viable option for flying over the Pacific. It's easy for you to say today that
43 Alitalia744: Not a huge pratt fan but they do look darn sexy on the 757!!!!
44 N328KF: To be fair, that was a point in time where no one manufacturer had a complete product line. In order to go all the way up and down the spectrum, you
45 SLCUT2777: I really do like the appearance of the DL P&W 752 vs. the RR powered birds both AA and your Canadian charter carrier Skyservice both use. Not long ag
46 Okie73: There is no way Delta will be able to replace over 130 airframes by 2010.