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Delta And The Winglet  
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9081 posts, RR: 12
Posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 6341 times:

will DL put winglets on there 737s and 757s? If so when? What do you guys (and girls ) think that they should do?


yep.
31 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDeltaGator From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 6341 posts, RR: 13
Reply 1, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 6315 times:

Let them get out of bankruptcy and then you might see them on the 757s first and then perhaps the 738 planes. The 757 is the transcon plane of cchoice going forward it seems so they could benefit the most from the winglets.


"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
User currently offlineRamerinianAir From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1486 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 6253 times:

I think they might add the winglets to the 738s after bankruptcy - the 738s will be around for a LOOOONG time. Some of their 757s are getting older now, it may be a waste to put them on now.
I don't think that the 757 is the aircraft of choic for transcons. It seems that DL is putting the 738 on a few transcons too!
SR



W N = my Worst Nightmare!!!!!
User currently offlineDeltaGator From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 6341 posts, RR: 13
Reply 3, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 6235 times:

Quoting RamerinianAir (Reply 2):
I don't think that the 757 is the aircraft of choic for transcons. It seems that DL is putting the 738 on a few transcons too!

You're correct about the 738 on the transcon flights but they are rolling out the Song improvements with PTVs and such to the 757 fleet as their heavy load transcon equipment first.

I'm sure we'll see those improvements rolled out to the 738 fleet soon enough along with the international fleet.



"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4731 posts, RR: 45
Reply 4, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 6206 times:

DL's 738s will be getting winglets.

DL's oldest 757s will start retiring next year (purple tails anyone?)

DL's 757s coming from AA will have winglets and will feature the new design.



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineDeltaGator From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 6341 posts, RR: 13
Reply 5, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 6153 times:

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 4):
DL's oldest 757s will start retiring next year (purple tails anyone?)

You've lost me on this one. Who has purple tails? I'm sure as soon as you tell me it will be obvious but right now the brain isn't functioning fully.



"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
User currently offlineAirTranTUS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6095 times:

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 5):
You've lost me on this one. Who has purple tails? I'm sure as soon as you tell me it will be obvious but right now the brain isn't functioning fully.

FedEx. The beginning of the ~90 they want.


User currently offlineDAL767400ER From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 5721 posts, RR: 46
Reply 7, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5986 times:

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 6):
FedEx. The beginning of the ~90 they want.

Wouldn't be a surprise, seeing as how FX already feasted on DL retiring their MD-11s and 727s.


User currently offlineDeltaGator From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 6341 posts, RR: 13
Reply 8, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 5926 times:

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 6):
FedEx. The beginning of the ~90 they want.

Ah, ok. I was thinking passenger and the only thing coming to mind was Eos.



"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
User currently offlineDl757md From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1562 posts, RR: 16
Reply 9, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5887 times:

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 4):
DL's oldest 757s will start retiring next year (purple tails anyone?)

Not sure of your rationale behind this. They're not that old and they're in great shape. They are WAAAAAYYY more reliable than the much newer POS MD-90s everyone on these boards seems to love. I know this because I work on both of them every night. The oldest 57 is coming up on 22 years and the first 50 or so are all 16+. If they do start retiring them what does your crystal ball say that they'll be replaced with?

Quoting RamerinianAir (Reply 2):
Some of their 757s are getting older now, it may be a waste to put them on now.

If Alitalia744 is right and they start retiring them soon then maybe they won't put them on them or if they could recoup part of the cost in a resale to FedEx.

DL757Md



757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
User currently offlineDAL767400ER From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 5721 posts, RR: 46
Reply 10, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5850 times:

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 9):
Not sure of your rationale behind this.

He's referring to this newspiece in the thread about DL buying the ex-TWA planes:
http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/new...omm_story.jsp?id=news/DAL10176.xml
The last sentence in that article is
"Delta currently has a fleet of 121 757s, but some of the older 757s will be retired in the coming years, Hauenstein said."


User currently offlineRandyWaldron From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 324 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5723 times:

I am so surprised, with the a.net geeks on here, that NO ONE remembers Delta's winglet program with the 727 in the 90's.

I guess I'll be the geek that posts it.

RW



"Flaps 20, gear down, landing checklist please..."
User currently offlineN160LH From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 280 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5690 times:

Quoting RandyWaldron (Reply 11):
I am so surprised, with the a.net geeks on here, that NO ONE remembers Delta's winglet program with the 727 in the 90's.

I totally remember that... If I remember correctly the company that was making them went out of business, so the program was scraped...

On another note... For some reason I remember hearing that DL had purchased 20 or 30 sets of winglets for the 737-800... I might be wrong... but I am pretty sure I remember hearing something to that affect...

On yet another note... I also heard that a company is doing R & D on winglets for the 767-300... and this would make all kinds of sense for DL...

-160



"I do alright up in the air, its down on the ground that I tend to mess up..."
User currently offlineDAL767400ER From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 5721 posts, RR: 46
Reply 13, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5625 times:

Quoting RandyWaldron (Reply 11):
I guess I'll be the geek that posts it.

N510DA

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © JetPix


and N511DA

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Scott Brandenburg


IIRC, they were produced by Valsan, however DL was not satisfied with the test results and dropped the program.


User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7321 posts, RR: 24
Reply 14, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5589 times:

Please excuse this nieve question, but what exactly are the benifits of Winglets?


Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineAeroWeanie From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 1606 posts, RR: 52
Reply 15, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5557 times:
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Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 14):
Please excuse this nieve question, but what exactly are the benifits of Winglets?

5% drag reduction in cruise.

Quoting N160LH (Reply 12):
On yet another note... I also heard that a company is doing R & D on winglets for the 767-300...

Aviation Partners Boeing announced this long ago...

APB just announced at NBAA that all the US government C-32s (757s) will be getting winglets.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 13):
IIRC, they were produced by Valsan, however DL was not satisfied with the test results and dropped the program.

Delta was pleased, but Boeing wasn't. They said that they would withdraw their warranty on the airframes if Delta kept the Valsan winglets on.


User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7321 posts, RR: 24
Reply 16, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5485 times:

Quoting AeroWeanie (Reply 15):
5% drag reduction in cruise.

Will this make the aircrafts more fuel effecient? Handle turbulence better? I have to admit my knowledge of the functions of the aircrafts themselves is limited.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlinePhollingsworth From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 825 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5474 times:

Quoting AeroWeanie (Reply 15):
Delta was pleased, but Boeing wasn't. They said that they would withdraw their warranty on the airframes if Delta kept the Valsan winglets on.

This doesn't make a whole lot of sense. The airframes would have been out of Warranty by that point. Boeing could have threatened to not support the aircraft. However, they do have legal obligations to that effect because they hold the TC. The STC holder, Valsan, would have had obligations WRT the winglets and any design/stress changes to the wings.


User currently offlineB6WNQX From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 243 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5451 times:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 16):
Will this make the aircrafts more fuel effecient? Handle turbulence better? I have to admit my knowledge of the functions of the aircrafts themselves is limited.

From what I have read it will reduce the overal fuel burn, although it has been argued whether or not the benefits exist on shorter flights. The winglets are also supposed to improve takeoff field performance.

These are just two things that I have heard of.


User currently offlineAirTranTUS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5390 times:

Quoting B6WNQX (Reply 18):
From what I have read it will reduce the overal fuel burn, although it has been argued whether or not the benefits exist on shorter flights. The winglets are also supposed to improve takeoff field performance.

I wrote a research paper about winglets two years ago and this is whta I found out. The winglets reduce drag which means that the power setting is less for the same True Airspeed (TAS). With the reduced power setting, fuel burn is less and more fuel is available later in the flight, increasing range. If the pilot does not reduce power, however, there will be no major benefit. It will require more down trim because of the increased lift, so any good pilot will realize he should pull the power back instead.


User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4731 posts, RR: 45
Reply 20, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5098 times:

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 10):
He's referring to this newspiece in the thread about DL buying the ex-TWA planes:

thanks ol'german friend  Smile



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineDZ09 From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 491 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 4959 times:

Improved performance or not, the 727 looks great with them winglets. Big fan of the B727. Only wish Boeing will come up with a new plane that resembles the B727, although I don't expect to see a new trijet ever.

User currently offlineGunsontheroof From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3493 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 4911 times:

Delta could be trouble out of JFK across the pond with a fleet full of winglet-equipped 757s...


Next Flight: 9/17 BFI-BFI
User currently offlineDl757md From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1562 posts, RR: 16
Reply 23, posted (7 years 6 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 4691 times:

Quoting RandyWaldron (Reply 11):
I am so surprised, with the a.net geeks on here, that NO ONE remembers Delta's winglet program with the 727 in the 90's.

I helped install the left winglet on N511DA.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 10):
The last sentence in that article is
"Delta currently has a fleet of 121 757s, but some of the older 757s will be retired in the coming years, Hauenstein said."

Thanks. Hadn't heard that yet but sometimes we on the front lines are the last to know. I still think they have plenty of passenger life left in them.....aging aircraft or not.

DL757Md



757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
User currently offlineBrettdespain From United States of America, joined May 2005, 178 posts, RR: 11
Reply 24, posted (7 years 6 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4167 times:

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 4):
DL's 738s will be getting winglets

Not for sure.

The first dozen or so 738's we got do not have the necessary hard points installed in the wings necessary for the winglet kit. The remaining 738's do.

Here are the reasons we're hearing we may not get winglets on the 738:

1. The older 738's would have to be modified in order to attach winglets, thus it is more expensive to do that.

2. If we added the winglets to the late model 738's we have with the attachments points, it would result in an "uncommon fleet". Meaning some 738's with winglets some without. Why management is concerned about this escapes me, yet it is one of the reasons we've been told.

3. No money set aside for this right now. Winglets are still being actively studied, as is everything else right now that may save dollars, but Delta is still unsure if the large expense of buying and installing the winglets would be recouped by the fuel savings in the short term.

As for 738's flying transcon, you need to check our schedule more closely: They are flying many, many long haul transcon flights. Just flew this morning from IAD to SLC, about 04+38 flying time.

Brett



V1...Rotate.
25 Baron52ta : just a note The drag is lessened by the tip verticle causing a reduction in pressure bleed off the wing tip which in turn reduces wingtip vortecies,
26 AirTranTUS : I knew that but I did not feel like going into specifics that deep. It's been a long day.
27 N1120A : Given how fast the winglets pay for themselves, they would be wise to get them asap.
28 Alitalia744 : Everyone's hearing different things, your points make sense tho... Never said they weren't flying transcons, flew a 738 a couple of weeks ago in Firs
29 Post contains images DAL767400ER : Very true. As long as the planes are properly maintained, I don't see a problem with the 757s staying until they push 30 years. After all, it's not l
30 Wjcandee : There's a profound difference between the poster saying that they would be retired "starting next year", which I'll bet money is totally wrong, and "
31 Litz : Considering every one of those 757s is getting a complete new interior (well, at least seats) there's not much point in forcibly pushing them out the
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