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Airbus Corporate Jetliner Outsells Boeing Business  
User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 22
Posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 8311 times:

http://www.aero-news.net/PlainPage.cfm

a part from the article,

The Airbus Commercial Jetliner (ACJ) is outselling its Boeing Business Jet (BBJ) counterpart two to one in the highly rarified world of business jets that are as big as an airliner. Boeing has sold ten this year but Airbus confirms selling twice that number. Goana hinted that he was hoping to bring that total up to 22 before the end of the NBAA convention.

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I believe the 2 A318 Elite for Jet Alliance are the aircraft Mr. Goana is reffering to.




more from the article,

In what may be the most amazing revelation of all, Goana confirmed that he is in serious talks for an Airbus Corporate Jetliner that is just a little bigger than the A320 family. The often-delayed, giant superjumbo A380 is being considered as bizjet for what he would only say is a head of state. Further questioning only brought a sly smile.


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53 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineWINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2831 posts, RR: 68
Reply 1, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 8294 times:

Quoting Manni (Thread starter):
http://www.aero-news.net/PlainPage.cfm

a part from the article,

The Airbus Commercial Jetliner (ACJ) is outselling its Boeing Business Jet (BBJ) counterpart two to one in the highly rarified world of business jets that are as big as an airliner. Boeing has sold ten this year but Airbus confirms selling twice that number. Goana hinted that he was hoping to bring that total up to 22 before the end of the NBAA convention.

Well Airbus should not be particularly proud at the moment when Boeing has sold 3 B748VIP and the B787VIP.

Airbus may be winning with NB VIP's, but it's a different looking matter with WB market for VIP transport where they are currently being slaughtered by Boeing.

Regards,
Wings



Aviation Is A Passion.
User currently offlineScouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3390 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 8270 times:

Quoting Manni (Thread starter):
The often-delayed, giant superjumbo A380 is being considered as bizjet for what he would only say is a head of state. Further questioning only brought a sly smile

Did Leahey talk about a possible sale of a A380 to a private customer a while back - mentioning by year end (but that was before any delays were announced)


User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4162 posts, RR: 89
Reply 3, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 8203 times:
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Quoting Manni (Thread starter):
The Airbus Commercial Jetliner (ACJ) is outselling its Boeing Business Jet (BBJ) counterpart two to one

No sir I don't believe that to be the case as since launch;

Boeing have sold 116 BBJs/VIPS 111 NBs and 7 WBs of which 16 have been booked in 2006.

Outselling 2 to 1? PR Fluff and blah blah  Yeah sure

http://active.boeing.com/commercial/orders/index.cfm

Quoting Manni (Thread starter):
I believe the 2 A318 Elite for Jet Alliance are the aircraft Mr. Goana is reffering to.

No point in comapring one variant of the family by excluding the rest. Besides they had to to do something with the following frames from HP/ US, Tarom and IB. It was an astute move actually.

Here's how many total variants the Airbus A32X series CJs have been sold;

2006 sales 13 aircraft sold in the first half of 2006 ACJ Family sales Approximately 70 ACJs sold worldwide

http://www.airbus.com/en/aircraftfam...lies/executive_aviation/index.html

Regards, PanAm_DC10



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User currently offlineDAL767400ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 8158 times:

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 3):
Quoting Manni (Thread starter):
The Airbus Commercial Jetliner (ACJ) is outselling its Boeing Business Jet (BBJ) counterpart two to one
No sir I don't believe that to be the case as since launch;

Boeing have sold 116 BBJs/VIPS 111 NBs and 7 WBs of which 16 have been booked in 2006.

Outselling 2 to 1? PR Fluff and blah blah

It works if you only look at the numbers for this single year  Wink .


User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 22
Reply 5, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 8096 times:

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 4):
It works if you only look at the numbers for this single year

Yes indeed, this is clearly written in the article.

Quoting Manni (Thread starter):
Boeing has sold ten this year but Airbus confirms selling twice that number.



Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 3):
2006 sales 13 aircraft sold in the first half of 2006 ACJ Family sales Approximately 70 ACJs sold worldwide

Indeed, add to that 2 A318s yesterday, 4 corporate jetliners last month the corporate jet sold in august and whatever they sold in july (it escapes me for the moment) and a total of 22 Mr. Goana talked about could be correct.



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User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4162 posts, RR: 89
Reply 6, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 8027 times:
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Quoting Manni (Reply 5):
Quoting Manni (Thread starter):
Boeing has sold ten this year but Airbus confirms selling twice that number.

The 4 undisclosed A32X series booked in September may not all be for the CJ program as we both know that Airbus book undisclosed orders for carriers if the carrier so requests.

Airbus sold 1 A319CJ in July, as for the 22 Mr Goana refers to, he is including options, if not, he has reverted to last years sales figures and included options. As, IIRC, total A318 Elite commitments total 22. You have also forgotten that Boeing have 78 UFO 737s on the books. I can attest that some of these are BBJs so the numbers are not fully known. Back to fluff and blah blah  Wink

Regards, PanAm_DC10



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User currently offlineWINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2831 posts, RR: 68
Reply 7, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 7999 times:

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 6):
Airbus sold 1 A319CJ in July, as for the 22 Mr Goana refers to, he is including options, if not, he has reverted to last years sales figures and included options. As, IIRC, total A318 Elite commitments total 22.

Hi PanAm_DC10, Well according to my numbers the A318 Elite has following firm orders, excluding options.


A318/A318 Elite Orders

Air France x 18
Comlux x 3 (Elite)
National Air Service x 2 (Elite)
Frontier x 9 (Direct from Airbus)
Gecas x 12 (all delivered and leased to Mexicana x 10 and Frontier x 2)
LAN Airlines x 20 (first with the PW6000)
US Airways x 15 (Interesting to see what happens)
Tarom x 4 (Interesting to see what happens)
Jet Alliance x 3 (Elite)
Private Customes x 6 (Elite)


Total A318 Orders: 92 frames. (Elite = 14 frames)



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User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 22
Reply 8, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 7951 times:

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 6):
The 4 undisclosed A32X series booked in September may not all be for the CJ program as we both know that Airbus book undisclosed orders for carriers if the carrier so requests.

http://www.airbus.com/en/corporate/orders_and_deliveries/

"Airbus logged four new A320 Family orders from private customers in September"



In the article I posted is clearly written that Airbus has sold 20 aircraft of their corporate jet catalog, and might add soon another 2 (happened maybe hours after the article was posted). This is being confirmed by Mr. Goana Airbus' Corporate Jets sales person.

I'm going to go with Mr. Goana's words here, atleast as far as the Airbus part of the article is concerned. He might not be up to date with the BBJ orders, but he should know better than anyone else what the score is for Airbus. Unless... the writer of the article messed up Mr. Goana's words.



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User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4162 posts, RR: 89
Reply 9, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 7877 times:
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Hi Wings

Quoting WINGS (Reply 7):
Comlux x 3 (Elite)

Agree sir, 3 booked December 13, 2005, undisclosed.

Quoting WINGS (Reply 7):
National Air Service x 2 (Elite)

Agree sir, booked May 2, 2006. 5 options remain.

Quoting WINGS (Reply 7):
Jet Alliance x 3 (Elite)

First one booked, June 16, 2006; plus 2 options confirmed today

Quoting WINGS (Reply 7):
Private Customes x 6 (Elite)

Booked as follows;

1 on June 6, 2005, Private Customer (An Austrian Company, IIRC) and;

5 on December, 14, 2005, these were announced at Dubai 2005.

So yes, 20 and that's how we get 22 referred to in the article if we include JetAlliance.

OTOH: Airbus has sold 1 x A330 VIP whilst Boeing have sold 3 x 748i x VVIP and 4 x 787 VVIPs

Regards, PanAm_DC10



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User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4162 posts, RR: 89
Reply 10, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 7825 times:
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Quoting Manni (Reply 8):
In the article I posted is clearly written that Airbus has sold 20 aircraft of their corporate jet catalog, and might add soon another 2 (happened maybe hours after the article was posted). This is being confirmed by Mr. Goana Airbus' Corporate Jets sales person.

You know Manni instead of being combative why don't you try to find a solution instead? I questioned the article and decised to do some reseach to calrify the anomoly in the report. It wasn't too hard. Look at the above post and you will find that every order is listed and brings the total to 22

Quoting Manni (Reply 8):
I'm going to go with Mr. Goana's words here, atleast as far as the Airbus part of the article is concerned.

That's fair, but look at the fluff and blah blah one has to go through to confirm the number.

Regards, PanAm_DC10



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User currently offlineKatekebo From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 704 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 7771 times:

Frankly, this looks like an Airbus-paid PR article to spread some positive spin among the sea of bad news surrounding Airbus lately.

User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4162 posts, RR: 89
Reply 12, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 7698 times:
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Quoting Katekebo (Reply 11):
this looks like an Airbus-paid PR article to spread some positive spin

As this is a thread on CJs, BBJS, VIPs & VVIPs which coincides with the NBAA airshow I have the following question.

Is Mr Goana really pleased? I mean look at what Boeing have announced at the same NBAA Show;

October 17 , 2006 – Boeing Business Jets announced it has won a total of 19 new airplane orders within the last 11 months. The announcement was made during the 2006 National Business Aviation Association (NBAA) Convention & Exhibition in Orlando. The orders, which are valued at $2.25 billion at list prices, include 10 BBJs, two BBJ 3s and a total of seven widebody airplanes. The widebody orders include one 787-8, three 787-9 and three 747-8 airplanes specifically designated for the VIP market. The VIP configured airplanes offer between 2,404 and 4,786 square feet of cabin space for private owners

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/bbj/html/index_html.html

Regards, PanAm_DC10



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User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 22
Reply 13, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 7632 times:

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 10):
You know Manni instead of being combative

Not being combative at all. Just showing you that Airbus talked about private custmers in refference to last months sales.

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 10):
why don't you try to find a solution instead?

I picked up halfway trough the year, the Airbus pressrelease that sales totalled 13 at that time, added one in august, 4 in september and 2 in october. That's 20.
Forgot about july but looked it up and you confirmed, one sold in june. That's 21. One short of 22, perhaps this one hasn't been made public yet.



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User currently offlineAMSSFO From Netherlands, joined Feb 2005, 952 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 7573 times:

Quoting WINGS (Reply 7):
(Elite = 14 frames)



Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 10):
why don't you try to find a solution instead?



Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 10):
look at the fluff and blah blah one has to go through to confirm the number.



Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 9):
So yes, 20 and that's how we get 22 referred to in the article if we include JetAlliance.

Wings number of 14 (not 20) refer to TOTAL sales of the A318E ONLY, while the article Manni linked to talks about the whole Corporate family sales in 2006 only.
Airbus has indeed sold 20 ACJ this year, but that's including the recent Jet Alliance order: The sales break down as follows
Czech Republic 9-mrt 2 A319CJ
Jet Alliance 16-mrt 1 A319CJ
JetAlliance 16-jun 1 A318E
JetAlliance 18-okt 2 A318E
National Air Services* 2-mei 2 A318E
Private Customer 14-apr 1 A319CJ
Private Customer 31-aug 1 A320P
Private Customer* 27-jan 1 A319CJ
Private Customer* 1-apr 1 A319CJ
Private Customer* 22-mei 1 A319CJ
Private Customer* 6-jun 1 A318E
Private Customer* 17-jul 1 A319CJ
Private Customer* 14-sep 1 A319CJ
Private Customer* 25-sep 1 A320P
Private Customer* 29-sep 2 A319CJ
Stumpf Group* 31-mei 1 A319CJ

That makes 6 A318E, 12 A319CJ and 2 A320P, and a 2006 up-to-date Total of 20. Has Airbus sold another two that haven't appeared on their monthly update yet? Or was Goana not talking about Jet Alliance?
Boeing has sold 9 BBJ this year (at least), so indeed THIS YEAR Airbus outsells Boeing 2:1.

[Edited 2006-10-18 16:25:24]

User currently offlineAMSSFO From Netherlands, joined Feb 2005, 952 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 7518 times:

Quoting Manni (Reply 13):
that sales totalled 13 at that time

includes 1 A330 Prestige


User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9633 posts, RR: 68
Reply 16, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 7502 times:
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well, I guess Airbus is desperate from some positive press.

User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 22
Reply 17, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 7471 times:

Quoting AMSSFO (Reply 15):
includes 1 A330 Prestige

Indeed. Thanks for the extensive and detailed list in reply 14. Meanwhile the 2 'missing' ACJ's have been identified today as orders for Monaco based Boutsen Aviation (who has ordered them for customers who are not identified).



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User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6485 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 7457 times:

Why the hell are we counting the A318-derived models here? While in theory, any BCA airframe is on offer through BBJ, it appears likely that the A318 Elite et. al. compete against smaller airframes (G550, etc...). Those sales really should be split out.


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User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9633 posts, RR: 68
Reply 19, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 7445 times:
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Boutsen Aviation - wow, owned by Thierry Boutsen. SWEET! I remember when he helled Senna off in Hungary, what was that, 1989 or 1990, what a race.

User currently offlineGlideslope From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1617 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5851 times:

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 11):
Frankly, this looks like an Airbus-paid PR article to spread some positive spin among the sea of bad news surrounding Airbus lately.

I see this as Boeing conceding the VIP Market to Airbus. They need to sell something to someone until the 350 comes on board in 2015, 16, 17 , 18 , 19, or 20.  duck 



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User currently offlineFlyusairways From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 178 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5786 times:

Quoting WINGS (Reply 7):
US Airways x 15 (Interesting to see what happens)

A bit off topic, but weren't the US A318 orders (formerly America West orders) converted to a319s or similar?

Thanks!



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User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8675 posts, RR: 15
Reply 22, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5744 times:

Quoting Flyusairways (Reply 21):
A bit off topic, but weren't the US A318 orders (formerly America West orders) converted to a319s or similar?

I believe so. Its either that or converted A321 orders.

MCOflyer



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User currently offlineSocal From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 473 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5693 times:

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 11):
Frankly, this looks like an Airbus-paid PR article to spread some positive spin among the sea of bad news surrounding Airbus lately.

On the money....Katekebo...this is typical Airbus "BU@#S!&T"....



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User currently offlineRiddlePilot215 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 318 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5665 times:
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A bit off topic....for anybody that was at the NBAA Convention....


Did anybody see those Airbus brochures advertising the A380 ACJ/ Executive Transport?

Yeesh is that ridiculous....



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25 Ikramerica : I am confused now. Too many varying figures. But the popularity of the A318E should show Boeing they might want to consider the BBJ Lite or some such
26 DEVILFISH : Hello friend. What model is Boeing referring to as BBJ3? Boeing had a business version (at least on plan) of the 736. Lack of customer interest led t
27 Post contains links and images Brendows : It's based on the 739ER News article on the launch from Boeing here: http://www.boeing.com/commercial/news/2006/q4/061016a_nr.html
28 Thebry : Thanks for finding some positive news about Airbus, Manni. It's a refreshing change from what's been posted lately. If you find any more, please post.
29 Post contains images PanAm_DC10 : Respectfully, in that conversation, the context was that Airbus did not book "undisclosed" orders. A point which was in fact not the truth in the con
30 Osiris30 : Can I ask a silly question. Who the f*ck cares? Really 10 or 20 frames won't make either company. I mean has the A vs. B pissing match sunk this low.
31 Post contains images Ikramerica : I'd buy one if I had the money. I don't need a plane as big as the BBJ, but the A318E is just big enough. Plus it's so damn cute! Although, honestly,
32 N328KF : Usually it's not that big of a deal, but I believe Airbus fanatics are looking for any small order to make themselves feel better. Solnabo and Manni
33 Post contains images PanAm_DC10 : [Quote N328KF] To be fair, during their low point, Boeing fans did the exact same thing. [END QUOTE] sir @ Orisis30, there are plenty who care about a
34 Post contains images Osiris30 : I wasn't here at the time or would have said the same thing then. I'm an equal opportunity a**   I don't mind discussing the orders (hell I was temp
35 Post contains images DEVILFISH : Thanks Brendows and PanAm_DC10. Makes two of us finding it so. Neither. It's based on the E190. Although the E170 could be another "cute" private jet.
36 EMBQA : ...REALLY...? Boeing's TOTAL numbers are nearly 10x that of Airbus. The Airbus web site shows only 9 ACJ's in service and Boeing shows 93 BBJ's in se
37 Skyexramper : BBJ 8 pax: range- 6200nm max runway use- 5790 ft **reliable airplane for over 30yrs.** ACJ 8 pax: range- 6000nm max runway use- 6171 ft Buy the origin
38 PanAm_DC10 : Nor do I sir; Nor am I sir; I didn't post the thread, I merely responded with facts available from the respective OEMs websites, amongst others. CJs
39 Manni : I don't have to do the math again if you reread my post. Who urinated in your breakfast this morning? This forum is THE place to post this kind of ne
40 N1120A : I believe those are no longer on order, havng been replaced by larger models or cancelled because of default on the PW6000.
41 Osiris30 : PanAm_DC10: I'll send you a private on this so I don't drag the thread further OT. Apologies to all for the tone and wording of my post, it *was* out
42 Post contains images Osiris30 : LOL no, but someone did pee in my cornflakes. Apologies Manni, carry on
43 Post contains links PanAm_DC10 : IIRC N1120A is correct, the delay PW6000 was one of the reasons as to why HP (at the time) could cancel if they so chose to do so. the Company also s
44 AMSSFO : My point is that you two are talking about two different issues. Wings gives the correct number of 14 of TOTAL sales of the A318E, i.e. since A start
45 Kappel : I was wondering if it was him. Man, those F1 people sure like aviation (Lauda, Stoddard to name a few)
46 Manni : Thank you Osiris. Very much appriciated and accepted.
47 Post contains links PanAm_DC10 : Thank you AMSSFO you could well be right, however; I was referring to that too which was why I listed the number as 22 because that is the correct nu
48 AMSSFO : So that makes 14 firm orders and apparently 8 commitments. We can expect more firm orders in the next months
49 EMBQA : I know you are talking about current 2006 sales. So what....? Boeing is still crushing the ACJ program with total sales.
50 Asturias : Well done Airbus! Congratulations on a successful business jet series! Asturias
51 Post contains images PanAm_DC10 : Thanks for the clarification AMSSFO a true gentleman! But one has already been firmed up as the Petters Group have ordered 1. To add, again, I feel t
52 Manni : In that case there was certainly no need to try to counter my post. Could be. But the difference in amount of private aircraft sold between both manu
53 EMBQA : The Airbus web site groups these as 'private' customers...so my guess would be not all are ACJ's, but most are. It also gives a list of all private ai
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