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Lufthansa Fleet Planning Update  
User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4137 posts, RR: 90
Posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 14567 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
COMMUNITY MANAGER

LHs CEO has spoken more on their fleet procurement

Fair use excerpt

By Susanna Ray
Oct. 19 (Bloomberg) -- Deutsche Lufthansa AG, Europe's second-biggest airline, will wait until Airbus SAS decides whether to proceed with its planned A350 airplane before choosing between that model and Boeing Co.'s 787. ``We'd like to first see what the A350 looks like and then we'll decide which one to buy,'' Chief Executive Officer Wolfgang Mayrhuber said in an interview

[snip]

A decision about buying Boeing's 747-8 is ``not affected'' by Airbus's plans, Mayrhuber said. ``That's a different ballgame.'' The company's fleet manager, Nico Buchholz, said then that a decision would probably come in December. The carrier is also considering Boeing's 777-300ER model.


[END - Fair use excerpt http://www.bloomberg.net ]

Seems as though we may still get some of the order announced by December and when Airbus provide a final proposal for the A350-XWB we'll see a later decision.

Regards, PanAm_DC10


Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
121 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5744 posts, RR: 47
Reply 1, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 14513 times:

My opinion, take it for what it's worth, is that this order is going all Airbus. A350XWB, A380 maybe even a smattering of A330/A340s. This is a political order given all the trouble Airbus is having there will be some pressure on LH to order Airbus to keep jobs allive in Germany.

it won't matter if Boeing has a better offer or better aircraft. This order will go to Airbus.



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineUSAF336TFS From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1445 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 14400 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 1):
it won't matter if Boeing has a better offer or better aircraft. This order will go to Airbus.

NYC777, I'd agree with you if we were just talking about a pax order, but what I'm hearing, is that the order will include freighters. If that proves true, then at best, it will be a mixed buy. Cargo has all but ruled out the A380F and all but said that their choices are between the 777F and/or 747-8F. Their competitors are ordering and the longer they put off the decision, the farther out their delivery dates. Something that Mayrhuber himself said he wants out of his fleet, is to not be beholden to either manufacturer. I personally take the man at his word.
I'm told that delivery slots are a major factor, as well. Politics aside, LH will buy the aircraft that best suits them. 10 years ago, I would say political pressure was much more of a factor, then today, in LH's case, at least.
I think it's safe to say, that both Boeing and Airbus will pull out all the stops to get this one.



336th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB
User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7062 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 14347 times:

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):
A decision about buying Boeing's 747-8 is ``not affected'' by Airbus's plans, Mayrhuber said. ``That's a different ballgame.'' The company's fleet manager, Nico Buchholz, said then that a decision would probably come in December. The carrier is also considering Boeing's 777-300ER mode

I have said that in various threads before I guess that LH is now only evaluating which one fits their needs better as a 747-400 replacement the 777-300ER and the 747-8I.
Buchholz just recently said that they are not intending to buy more A380 at the moment. I guess in December we will see an order for either the 777-3000ER or the 747-8I.
A350 and 787 is going to be interesting.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5566 posts, RR: 36
Reply 4, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 14347 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 1):
This is a political order given all the trouble Airbus is having there will be some pressure on LH to order Airbus to keep jobs allive in Germany.



Quoting NYC777 (Reply 1):
it won't matter if Boeing has a better offer or better aircraft. This order will go to Airbus.

This is absolute nonsense. LH is a completely private owned airline. They are solely responsible to their share-holders. The management must absolutely not make any political decision. They only must do what is best for the company. If Boeing has better planes for their purposes they have to buy them!

[Edited 2006-10-19 16:29:03]

User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 5, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 14266 times:

Quoting ZRH (Reply 4):
This is absolute nonsense. LH is a completely private owned airline. They are solely responsible to their share-holders. The management must absolutely not make any political decision. They only must do what is best for the company. If Boeing has better planes for their purposes they have to buy them!

Don't worry - while most of us know that, some will always chose to remain living in their "everything in Germany and France is decided by politics"-dreamworld... and even if, god forbid, Airbus actually did offer the plane better suited for Lufthansa or, even worse, actually offered the 'better plane', an order for Airbus aircraft by LH will, by them, always be called a purely political decision - regardless of the facts.

I've given up even trying to convince these members - since, whatever you say, they will not believe you anyhow.



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineFraport From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 144 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 14171 times:

I don't belong to those who always presume politics in LHs fleet plans but slowly I begin to wonder if their decisions are really that objective as they always claim. I'm just curious why they can wait for such a long time for a plane that may never be built, while they could not wait for Boeing in the early 90s when the A340 was some years ahead of the B777.

User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5566 posts, RR: 36
Reply 7, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 14103 times:

Quoting Fraport (Reply 6):
I'm just curious why they can wait for such a long time for a plane that may never be built, while they could not wait for Boeing in the early 90s when the A340 was some years ahead of the B777.

I think this relatively easy to answer. In the 90s they had old planes to replace soon. Now the 340, which would be replaced by the 787/350 are all relatively new and can be flown easily for 10 more years. In this case it is really reasonable to wait and see which aircraft would better fit to their need. BTW I think when LH ordered the 340 the 777 wasn't even launched (though not sure).


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7062 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 14044 times:

Quoting ZRH (Reply 7):
BTW I think when LH ordered the 340 the 777 wasn't even launched (though not sure).

At least the -200ER was not launched. Also ETOPS was an issue .
The race back then was more MD 11 vs. A340. LH did evaluate the MD 11 in the beginning but did not find it sufficient and went rather quick towards the Airbus TA11 program which later became the A340.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineEatmybologna From France, joined Apr 2005, 412 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 13979 times:

Quoting ZRH (Reply 7):
BTW I think when LH ordered the 340 the 777 wasn't even launched (though not sure).

I doubt this to be true. You're saying that Boeing did not reveal any of their plans to LH during the order of 340's? Come on now.

Quoting Leskova (Reply 5):

I've given up even trying to convince these members - since, whatever you say, they will not believe you anyhow.

Because you are probably biased and closed minded when it comes to a national airline. Why don't you pull off the wool covering your eyes.

Quoting ZRH (Reply 4):
This is absolute nonsense. LH is a completely private owned airline. They are solely responsible to their share-holders.

Considering most of LH's stakeholders are German, they must consider appeasing them with a grass routes decision.

Cheers,

E-M-B



Isn't knowledge more than just the acquisition of information? Shouldn't the acquired information be correct?
User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5566 posts, RR: 36
Reply 10, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 13950 times:

Quoting Columba (Reply 8):
The race back then was more MD 11 vs. A340.

Yes, you are absolutely right. I now remember, in those days Swissair had to make the decision between the MD 11 and the A 340. They chose the MD 11. There was still the ETOPS question and nobody new yet if it will be possible to fly long over-sea legs with only two engines. This was also the reason why Airbus built an four holer and not only the 330.


User currently offlineFraport From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 144 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 13931 times:

Quoting ZRH (Reply 7):
BTW I think when LH ordered the 340 the 777 wasn't even launched (though not sure).

Is the A350XWB officially launched? Enders publicly philosophises about a possible end of the whole program. To say it again, I don't want to imply politics but it seems not very logical to me to wait for a plane that's far away from design freeze while assembly of the prototype of its competitor has already begun.


User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5566 posts, RR: 36
Reply 12, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 13905 times:

Quoting Fraport (Reply 11):
To say it again, I don't want to imply politics but it seems not very logical to me to wait for a plane that's far away from design freeze while assembly of the prototype of its competitor has already begun.

As I already said, it is only a question of time. LH is not in a hurry at all. They have enough time to wait and see which will be the better aircraft. If they had to replace aircrafts very soon they of course should order the 787.


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7062 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 13867 times:

Quoting Eatmybologna (Reply 9):
I doubt this to be true. You're saying that Boeing did not reveal any of their plans to LH during the order of 340's? Come on now.

I imagine reading an old article from the late 80s in which it was stated that LH is evaluating Airbus TA11 program (later A340) and the MD 11 as a replacement for their DC 10s.
Boeing followed Airbus and MD much later with the 777 and the first version the 777-200A was of no interest of LH.
Much later -must have been 1993/1994 LH was already flying the A340- I have read in a German Aviation magazine called Aero International that LH was thinking of ordering 777s.
I remember searching the following issues of Aero International for more news on this but never found anything regarding this matter.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlinePlaneHunter From Germany, joined Mar 2006, 6747 posts, RR: 77
Reply 14, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 13870 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 1):
This is a political order given all the trouble Airbus is having there will be some pressure on LH to order Airbus to keep jobs allive in Germany.

Yet again the usual "LH orders = political" drivel...  Yeah sure

If there were any political pressure on LH by German politicians, the media would find it out and jump on it. And don't even start to suggest the media are also under pressure...

Fact is LH has been privately owned and professionally run for many years - people who suggest "political influence" should either present a reliable source or stop spreading nonsense.

Btw - Lufthansa has just announced to create more than 700 new jobs at its MUC hub. They don't need save jobs elsewhere, they create them.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 1):
it won't matter if Boeing has a better offer or better aircraft.

Source? Have you talked to Mr. Mayrhuber lately?

Quoting Fraport (Reply 6):
I'm just curious why they can wait for such a long time for a plane that may never be built, while they could not wait for Boeing in the early 90s when the A340 was some years ahead of the B777.

Apart from the fact that they needed a replacement as soon as possible, LH is a totally different company today.

Quoting Eatmybologna (Reply 9):

Because you are probably biased and closed minded when it comes to a national airline. Why don't you pull off the wool covering your eyes.

LH isn't even Frank's national airline...  Smile

Quoting Eatmybologna (Reply 9):
Considering most of LH's stakeholders are German, they must consider appeasing them with a grass routes decision.

The stakeholders are interested in profits and that's what LH's management has been delivering for years.


PH



Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30865 posts, RR: 86
Reply 15, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 13869 times:
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Quoting NYC777 (Reply 1):
My opinion, take it for what it's worth, is that this order is going all Airbus. A350XWB, A380 maybe even a smattering of A330/A340s. This is a political order given all the trouble Airbus is having there will be some pressure on LH to order Airbus to keep jobs alive in Germany.

If the order does go all-Airbus, it will have nothing to do with "preserving German jobs at Airbus" and everything to do with "preserving German jobs at LH" by purchasing the right equipment to keep LH profitable over the next two decades.

Quoting Columba (Reply 3):
I have said that in various threads before I guess that LH is now only evaluating which one fits their needs better as a 747-400 replacement the 777-300ER and the 747-8I. Buchholz just recently said that they are not intending to buy more A380 at the moment. I guess in December we will see an order for either the 777-3000ER or the 747-8I. A350 and 787 is going to be interesting.

I really wish I knew why Boeing decided to go with making the 747-8I the same length as the 747-8F. Is it because that is what airlines want? Or is it to try and leverage more of the 747-8F's development costs and workload to the 747-8I to make it cheaper to launch the model?

I can't see LH buying the 777-300ER. It has nothing to do with the quality of the plane. It's just that LH has a large A346 fleet and they can get more real fast with EK no longer taking theirs. That LH hasn't jumped on them makes me think they don't need additional capacity in that segment.

As such, while I have stated in the past I thought the longer 747-8I would make it unappealing to LH, perhaps LH only wants the A380 for a few core trunk routes to/from FRA and LHR where slots and capacity really are going to be an issue? Could they feel the 744 is "just fine" for everything else and wanted a bigger 747-8I to give them extra space to put in nicer future cabins or a few extra seats? A large 748I and 748F order (two dozen of each?) would offer them commonality and probably get a great deal from Boeing in both price and delivery dates.

LH has nothing to lose to see where the A350XWB and 787-10 programs end up. As noted, their A343s and A346s are hardly ancient so they are not in an immediate need to replace them. The current A3510 is closer to the 787-10 in size then the A346, so I do see the 787-10 as much a viable replacement for the A346 fleet as the A3510 is.

[Edited 2006-10-19 17:45:26]

User currently offlineAA777 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 2544 posts, RR: 28
Reply 16, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 13820 times:
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Oh man. How I would love to see a 77W in LH colors. Same goes with the 787...... and 748i. I'm sure they will order at least ONE of these... but who knows which one(s) they will select.

-AA777


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7062 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 13818 times:

Quoting Fraport (Reply 6):
I don't belong to those who always presume politics in LHs fleet plans but slowly I begin to wonder if their decisions are really that objective as they always claim. I'm just curious why they can wait for such a long time for a plane that may never be built, while they could not wait for Boeing in the early 90s when the A340 was some years ahead of the B777.

Also keep in mind that they critised both airplanes the A350 and the 787.
The 787 would be too small for their needs -the -9 being the minimum they would need and the A350 (VS 1.0  Wink ) having not enough range.
Airbus has done some re-work now and could live up to LH expectations while we still not now what Boeing is planning with the 787-10.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5566 posts, RR: 36
Reply 18, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 13791 times:

Quoting Eatmybologna (Reply 9):
Considering most of LH's stakeholders are German, they must consider appeasing them with a grass routes decision.

Do you really believe what you say? When I am a stakeholder then it is my money and I only want a good decision for the company and my shares and for sure no nationalistic decisions.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30865 posts, RR: 86
Reply 19, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 13762 times:
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Quoting Eatmybologna (Reply 9):
Considering most of LH's stakeholders are German, they must consider appeasing them with a grass routes decision.



Quoting ZRH (Reply 18):
Do you really believe what you say? When I am a stakeholder then it is my money and I only want a good decision for the company and my shares and for sure no nationalistic decisions.

 checkmark 

And to add to that, consider the actions Boeing and the US airlines have taken to outsource and offshore much of their workforce, none of which are "grass root" decisions.

Or is your assertion that only German shareholders care about keeping jobs local?


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7062 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 13742 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 15):
I really wish I knew why Boeing decided to go with making the 747-8I the same length as the 747-8F. Is it because that is what airlines want? Or is it to try and leverage more of the 747-8F's development costs and workload to the 747-8I to make it cheaper to launch the model?

There are rumors floating around that LH was one of the airlines pushing Boeing to make the 747-8I the same length as the 747-8F.
LH was looking for an aircraft that is filling the gap between the A346 and A380. A longer 747-8I would make indeed sense:

LH flies its 747-400s now with 330 seats (16F+80C+234Y) before 390.
The A340-600 has 306 seats and the A380 will have around 500-550 seats. The stretched 747-8 would now have around 400 seats and would now fill this gap between the A380 and A346 perfectly.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineEatmybologna From France, joined Apr 2005, 412 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 13668 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 19):

Or is your assertion that only German shareholders care about keeping jobs local?

No.

Stakeholders/shareholders wish for many things. Profit, of course, is one. Keeping jobs local is another. It comes down to a reaching a balance, and the executive board keeps this in mind when making decisions.

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 14):
LH isn't even Frank's national airline... Smile

I'm sorry if I made a mistake, but the last time I checked, I thought the black, gold, and red flag next to his name was Deutsch.

Cheers,

E-M-B



Isn't knowledge more than just the acquisition of information? Shouldn't the acquired information be correct?
User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7062 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 13669 times:

Well I had to hold my breath for a second as I have read the following headline:
"Lufthansa Technik shows luxury cabin of Boeing 787"
It was refering to the 787 business jet which LH will convert

Source in German:
http://www.welt.de/data/2006/10/19/1076805.html



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineAirSpare From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 589 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 13669 times:

The only "politik" that I have heard with my own ears, was from a Lufthansa pilot, we spent a few days BSing at SVX (ex Luftwaffe F-4, GIB as they say in the USAF for Guy in Back, or WSO, call sign Jumbo).

We're both married to Brasilians, had the Cold War in common so we had some good conversations about Brasil, the Soviet threat, F-4s, etc. He said most Lufthansa pilots preferred the B product, but that was changing as the average pilot age was getting younger.

Whatever LH chooses, I hope they make you a ton of money!



Get someone else for your hero worship fetish
User currently offlinePlaneHunter From Germany, joined Mar 2006, 6747 posts, RR: 77
Reply 24, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 13645 times:

Quoting Eatmybologna (Reply 21):
Stakeholders/shareholders wish for many things. Profit, of course, is one. Keeping jobs local is another. It comes down to a reaching a balance, and the executive board keeps this in mind when making decisions.

That's all fine - but is there any piece of evidence in LH's case?

Quoting Eatmybologna (Reply 21):
I'm sorry if I made a mistake, but the last time I checked, I thought the black, gold, and red flag next to his name was Deutsch.

Yes, the flag is German...and?


PH



Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
25 Eatmybologna : Yes. Past behavior has set a precedent. His profile lists his country as German. Is there something that you want to tell that's different, because h
26 BoeingBus : These statements by LH is only to push Airbus to invest in a new twin so that there is no monopoly in long range twin jets. Smart if you ask me... For
27 Post contains images Johnny : @ Columba "Also keep in mind that they critised both airplanes the A350 and the 787. The 787 would be too small for their needs -the -9 being the mini
28 PlaneHunter : Interesting - which one? And even if - is that a piece of evidence for today's strategy? Flags can also inform about users' current locations, not ju
29 Ken777 : Sort of an odd phrase - it seems to imply that LH has finalized its review of the 787 and is ready to buy it if Airbus doesn't impress them more than
30 Post contains images Eatmybologna : Why don't you read and consider the aforementioned and unbiased replies from this thread? As far as whether past set precedence is evidence on how th
31 Post contains images Leskova : Oh well... what can I say... or what can I say that PlaneHunter hasn't already said... Sorry if it seems strange to you, but though I live in Germany
32 KrisYYZ : Airbus is in a horrible position at the moment. The A380 delay causing Airbus to delay the A350, right when BA and LH start looking to replace a large
33 Johnny : I still believe LHs biggest problem to order the B787 is the lack of crew commonality with the rest of the medium sized widebodies. We have to see tha
34 AirbusA6 : But then selling relatively new aircraft at a significant loss isn't good business either... The way people talk about the A346, you'd have thought i
35 PlaneHunter : Which one exactly? Where's the evidence? Which status quo - "political orders"? PH
36 MEACEDAR : I would love to see LH in a B764. And maybe a B787.
37 ZRH : I absolutely agree. The 777-300ER does not make sense because it is the same generation of aircraft as the 340. Why replace an aircraft which is rela
38 Eatmybologna : No, it doesn't seem strange to me. I've also lived in other parts of the world, Marburg, Germany and Flekkefjord, Norway to name a few. When living i
39 Scaledesigns : Lets just say LH seems to have a softspot for Airbus,no matter what they offer.As said before,they have every major non military type produced by Airb
40 Columba : Well the 777-300ER is a bit newer than the A340-300 and many impovements have been made since the early 90s. I see the possibility of LH choosing the
41 Post contains images Stitch : Yes, crew re-training costs going to the A350 will be cheaper then going to the 787, but I imagine LH's pilots are skilled enough to cross-train on t
42 ZRH : You are right, they are not outdated when you need new aircrafts in the next few years, but when you only need them in 8 to 10 years then I see no se
43 N328KF : Yeah, right. On a large carrier like LH, I have serious reservations about the notion that they would ditch the 787 just because it had a new cockpit
44 BR076 : And they are a very profitable airline , so they must be do something right.
45 Eatmybologna : You know Udo, for an editor, you certainly have difficulties make sense of others’ writing. But I’ll make it easier for you. I wrote the following
46 Scaledesigns : BRO76,your right...But they could be doing even better with 777s on the A340 routes!!!Maybe they will have them soon!
47 Post contains links Columba : http://in.news.yahoo.com/061019/137/68my9.html
48 Post contains images PlaneHunter : You are free to have an opinion, but I have requested facts. Where's a reliable source that backs your view? Where's the ultimate evidence that LH or
49 Post contains images Leskova : They certainly must consider appeasing their shareholders, but last time they published the respective quotas, 40% were non-German. Add to that the f
50 ZRH : And I can recapitulate: as a stakeholder I am ONLY interested in profit and nothing else, otherwise I would not invest my money in this company. Nati
51 Post contains images LTU932 : While I still maintain that LH will never go all Airbus, just as Mayrhuber said himself, your point does make lots of sense. Ain't gonna happen. The
52 Eatmybologna : PH, You asked for evidence, not facts. There’s a difference as evidence is that which tends to prove or disprove something as grounds for belief. I
53 M27 : Exactly! Can't believe you really believe that with all that's been going on. Do you think no nationalistic decision (going with Boeing) would be goo
54 PlaneHunter : It seems you talk about "indication" while I talk about "proof" - both terms can be referred to as "evidence". PH
55 Dairy : Absolutely right. "Lufthansa is not the caritas" as we german say....
56 Leskova : If I recall correctly, LH's pilots had placed provisions in their contracts during negotiations at that time that LH was prohibited from operating tw
57 Post contains images Eatmybologna : I agree, but you have to agree that it does exist. Just look at your European neighbors at Eads/Airbus when it comes to protecting jobs. I'm not sure
58 LTU932 : Yes, but I still think they're not nationally motivated. After all, Germany isn't a nationalistic nation and LH is much less a nationalistic airline.
59 Columba : I beg to differ here but you did not provid any evidence you were just assuming. As I said before as LH was evaluating a Dc 10 replacement it was a d
60 Eatmybologna : And I appreciate your opinion. You are also correct that my stance is based on assumptions. I'm asserting a claim on the aforementioned evidence (not
61 Post contains images Columba : Indication or signs so to speak
62 Dampfnudel : I always wondered why LH never ordered the B777 during the 90s. Mistakenly, I thought the decision to purchase the A340 was political. On a side note
63 Ken777 : If you only need them in 8 - 10 years then there should be no reason to waste time looking at placing an order this year! Why not wait a few years un
64 Leskova : The whole thing is a thing of the past one way or the other - B777 or not: LH's pilots don't have that provision in their contracts any longer. But b
65 Post contains images USAF336TFS : Other then the hearsay that you read here on A.Net, there is no evidence whatsoever that the pilots in LH's union prefer one control system, either s
66 Stitch : Yes, because I also believe that LH's fleet decisions are made at D-60546 Frankfurt/Main and not at the Kanzleramt. What does LH care? Did the French
67 Shenzhen : Depends where in China, as they are a joint venture with AMACO in Beijing, I believe, and have people there. Cheers
68 PanHAM : There is hardly any other Germnan company that is as international as Lufthansa. Just look at the most visible, check in and cabin crew. Just about a
69 Revelation : So, PH, is it true you are from Bolivia? I read it a bit different: they've reviewed the 787 and it wasn't compelling enough with regard to their req
70 PanHAM : If LH decides for the 787 they will get the slots they need. I don't think that LH is under that much pressure that they will go for the 787 now whil
71 Shenzhen : I'm not quite sure what a "common" type rating means. Either they are the same or they aren't. If they aren't, then you must maintain a type rating o
72 Johnny : @ Shenzhen Airbus is offering common type-ratings for all actual Fly-By-Wire-Airplanes.It is called CCQ - Cross Crew Qualification. The main Airbus ad
73 Jfk777 : Lufthansa will have 3 airbus families in its fleet for years to come. The A320, A330/340, and the A380. The 744 fits nicely in between the A346 and th
74 Post contains images Osiris30 : 787 and 748 are common cockpit (pretty much). We are quickly approching the point where there is little value in ordering 77xs. Especially if your fl
75 Post contains images Columba : They used A300s and A310s in the early 90s as well. A300s were used to flights to BOS and I know that for a little while LH was using A310s on the ro
76 Rheinbote : Maybe because Airbus was willing to fulfill LH's questionable requirement to have 20,4t of freight in addition to the A340 standard passenger payload
77 Columba : I believe they still are.
78 ZRH : As I know the 330 and 340 have the same type rating. The only difference are the numbers of the engines. At Swiss there are pilots who fly all Airbus
79 N328KF : Strange, then, that LH was one of the few carriers to put their lavs down below.
80 DAYflyer : If you seriously think no politics will enter into this, you are sadly mistaken.
81 PlaneHunter : Politicians will probably try, but I doubt the LH management would be impressed. PH
82 Jacobin777 : My guess (I don't believe there are any politics involved in LH's decision)... pax ---- A350's (if launched)/A380 options taken...possibly some 748I's
83 Johnnybgoode : in order to back up Eatmybologna, here's a politically-motivated decision by LH from the past: LH was the launching customer of the Do 728 (60+60 ord
84 Columba : LH was about to order some 777-300s to help Boeing but decided against it. This is were the infamous "we are not the caritas quote comes from"
85 PlaneHunter : I don't see a ultimate proof that the order was politically motivated - or in other words - that there was any pressure on LH. When the project was a
86 Post contains images Stitch :
87 11bravo : Lufthansa will be under enormous societal and political pressure to purchase Airbus aircraft. Will it be a purely political decision,... No. Will it
88 Stitch : How? I don't see folks with pitchforks and torches marching to LH HQ at FRA and storming the board room. I also haven't seen anyone quote any German
89 11Bravo : I can indeed. I think you're being very absolutist about this. I'm not suggesting, as your sarcasm suggests, that the only consideration will be "nat
90 Stitch : I agree it's in LH's interests to have two healthy manufacturers, but I don't buy the view of many here who seem to believe that Airbus is teetering
91 NoUFO : DAX-listed companies have transfered so many jobs to outside Germany, this argument doesn't hold much water. EADS/Airbus directly recieves money from
92 N328KF : To be fair, EADS' credit rating has been slashed one or two notches (depending upon which ratings agency) as a result of recent events.
93 Post contains images PlaneHunter : No - there are other companies which are under pressure. Companies like Deutsche Telekom, Siemens or Deutsche Bank have been and will be attacked for
94 Leelaw : IMO, what's mostly at stake here is Mr. Mayrhuber's continued ability to pontificate about the critical need for two viable OEMs. If all the impending
95 Johnny : Guys, I think it is more than enough said from you, that LH will only buy Airbus,because... Because of what...? They are still one of the biggest Boei
96 Post contains images LTU932 : I thought DE already got rid of all their 757-200s.
97 Post contains images USAF336TFS : If LH Cargo decides on the 777F, I'll remind you of this little diddy...
98 TVNWZ : Correct. I think it is the other way around. The Lufthansa board is likely to tell the Bundestag what to do, or at least many members of the board pr
99 Post contains images Johnny : @ LTU932 As far as i know they still have one B757-200 remaining. Johnny
100 Stitch : If they're not fools when choosing an airliner and are there to represent LH stakeholders, then why would they settle on an all-Airbus mainline fleet
101 Columba : It is too small for their needs. The most likely option is the 747-8F because of the nose door ability that they are now missing with the MD 11F.
102 Johnny : I sometimes have to think about LHs statement about the B787 and the A350. The B787 is too small and lacks a little range. The A350XWB seems to be alr
103 TVNWZ : Assuming all things being equal. They are not. Again, the clout on the LH board will get a good price from Airbus for anything they want to buy, comp
104 Post contains images LTU932 : Wait a minute. Since when is the Lufthansa Board of Directors the German government?   Lufthansa's responsibility is to its shareholders, investors,
105 Jacobin777 : What range would LH need that the 787 couldn't achieve which the A350 would be able to?
106 DAYflyer : Sigh...this is going to be an Airbus order..... too many German jobs at stake......
107 PlaneHunter : How simplistic and ignorant - LH is not the German government's job saver. The airline wouldn't belong to the world's most successful and profitable
108 Post contains images Stitch : I imagine they'd order A340-500s, first. Seriously, they like the A350 because it is more efficient then their A340s and is expected to be more effic
109 TVNWZ : I believe you are naive if you think decisions are not made in your federal and state governments without the input of powerful businessmen. I also b
110 Stitch : So, in other words, LH and Airbus are a German keiretsu / chaebol?
111 N328KF : No, but you could say this about DaimlerChrysler, EADS/Airbus/Eurocopter/Astrium, Lagardere, Thales, Dassault-Breguet, Dassault Systemes, MBDA, ATR,
112 TVNWZ : I would not go that far, but maybe. Look at the board: who they are, what they do and you tell me what you think.
113 USAF336TFS : LH Technik has a very close working relationship with both Airbus and Boeing. Talking with one of their people a few years ago, the word was they wer
114 Columba : I was just told that in the "Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung" was an article today that the A350 has fallen through LH´evaluation against the 787. Air
115 PanHAM : The board is responsible to the shareholders and when you attend an LH AGM you will find that these shareholders are very critical and will not toler
116 Columba : But only for the 787/A350. The 747 replacement is still due for December:
117 PanHAM : Let's look forward to that, was not mentioned in the article although. I wonder if LH has reserved slots for the 787.
118 Stitch : Well if LH is happy to wait until Spring for the small and mid-size widebodies, I don't see why they won't wait till then for the large. So I imagine
119 USAF336TFS : I agree, but if they did that they may: Order X amount of 747-8is, insist to be put on the "UFO" customer list until; Spring 2007, complete evaluatio
120 Stitch : Well if LH does indeed want the 748, I imagine they can negotiate two separate purchase prices. Discount "X" with the 787 and discount "Y" without. At
121 Columba : You beat me to it. If I understand the above quote from Mr. Buchholz correctly they consider either the 777-300ER or the 747-8I as their 747-400 repl
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