Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
United Fleet Update  
User currently offlineMEACEDAR From Lebanon, joined Oct 2006, 753 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 11577 times:

When is UA going to update there fleet? Everyone is talking about fleet updates for all the rest of the airlines except UA. I know they are climbing at of bankruptcy, but so are half the other ailrines. What do you'll think?

51 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25056 posts, RR: 46
Reply 1, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 11539 times:

Is been discussed here several times.

As part of their Ch11 exit, the carrier has covenants that bar capital expenditures and debt for aircraft. Hence the company has repeatedly said, no new aircraft will be on property until very late in the decade

The airline does hold 40 or so A32x options which were affirmed in the Ch11 process so its quite possible they will get exercised in the next few years and could be used for either expansion, or help replace the 737 fleet further.

It could well be that this path allows UA to luck out and miss the next industry down cycle by not expecting new aircraft which can become very severe financial burden during slow times.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineUnitedNRT From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 284 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 11433 times:

Has not changed much.

64 B737.322
30 B737.522
30 B747.422
97 B757.222
35 B767.322/ER
52 B777.222/ER
55 A319.131
97 A320.232


Note.
23 A319.131 are on order for delivery in 2011 as are 18 A320.232.

Also, 56 A320 are designated A32S which operate as United for Ted.



"...That's a lovely name. My name's Milton; Milton Ettenheim, but my friends call me Bubbles."
User currently offlineSupa7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 11368 times:

Do they really have that many planes? Good grief. That is humbling for, oh, just about everybody.

User currently offlineBmacleod From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 2259 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 11370 times:

Quoting UnitedNRT (Reply 2):
Has not changed much.

64 B737.322
30 B737.522
30 B747.422
97 B757.222
35 B767.322/ER
52 B777.222/ER
55 A319.131
97 A320.232

When did UA retire their 767.222/ERs?



The engine is the heart of an airplane, but the pilot is its soul.
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25056 posts, RR: 46
Reply 5, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 11342 times:

Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 4):
When did UA retire their 767.222/ERs?

Early '05 once they had enough p.s. configured aircraft.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineMEACEDAR From Lebanon, joined Oct 2006, 753 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 11183 times:

No wonder they were in Cha. 11. They have soooo many airplanes with not a lot of people flying them. I think that they should start selling the planes they own, and start to lease instead. This is way to much A/C for an airline. What do you think?

User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 7, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 11133 times:

Quoting UnitedNRT (Reply 2):
23 A319.131 are on order for delivery in 2011 as are 18 A320.232.

When did delivery dates get set?

Quoting MEACEDAR (Reply 6):
They have soooo many airplanes with not a lot of people flying them.

Loads are high, yields are low.

Quoting MEACEDAR (Reply 6):
I think that they should start selling the planes they own, and start to lease instead.

They are nearly all leased.


User currently offlineORD From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 1381 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 11117 times:

Quoting MEACEDAR (Reply 6):
They have soooo many airplanes with not a lot of people flying them.

They had a 79.5% load factor systemwide in September. How can you say not a lot of people are flying United?


User currently offlineMEACEDAR From Lebanon, joined Oct 2006, 753 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 11120 times:

Quoting ORD (Reply 8):

They had a 79.5% load factor systemwide in September. How can you say not a lot of people are flying United?

Why were they in Cha. 11? If they are not making money, people are not flying. Please enlighten me on the facts that you stated above.


User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 10, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 11016 times:

Quoting MEACEDAR (Reply 9):
Why were they in Cha. 11? If they are not making money, people are not flying. Please enlighten me on the facts that you stated above.

They were (and are, to a lesser extent) filling planes with fares so low that they don't cover their costs.


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26414 posts, RR: 75
Reply 11, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 11001 times:

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 1):
The airline does hold 40 or so A32x options which were affirmed in the Ch11 process so its quite possible they will get exercised in the next few years and could be used for either expansion, or help replace the 737 fleet further.

United is currently in a major crunch for mainline domestic capacity, to the point that they have had to use Ted aircraft as part of an interim solution in moving the fleet around and that hasn't helped them with their frequent flyers and higher yield customers. That, and the fact that their 737Classic fleet is among the newest and most advanced flying should combine to mean the 737s are sticking around for quite a while. Further, United has those 735s at a rather low capital cost, giving them a just over 100 seater with a decent CASM, something most of the US majors wish they could have.

Quoting MEACEDAR (Thread starter):
When is UA going to update there fleet? Everyone is talking about fleet updates for all the rest of the airlines except UA

Actually, United has one of the newer fleets out there and probably did the most fleet renewal pre-9/11 of any of the legacies other than CO and US. It just happens they haven't gone for 787s yet.

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 3):
Do they really have that many planes? Good grief. That is humbling for, oh, just about everybody.

Not really. Take a look at the fleets at American, Southwest or Delta sometime

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 7):
When did delivery dates get set?

As part of Ch. 11 emergence

Quoting MEACEDAR (Reply 6):
No wonder they were in Cha. 11. They have soooo many airplanes with not a lot of people flying them.

Actually, plenty of people have been flying, United's revenue management and overreliance on regional flying is what has hurt them. They don't have soooo many airplanes compared to their competition

Quoting MEACEDAR (Reply 6):
This is way to much A/C for an airline. What do you think?

No. And here is why

AMERICAN AIRLINES INC

AIRBUS A-300 34
BOEING B-737 77
BOEING B-757 143
BOEING B-767 78
BOEING B-777 46
DOUG DC-9 353 (All MD80s)

DELTA AIR LINES INC

BOEING B-737 95
BOEING B-757 121
BOEING B-767 107
BOEING B-777 8
DOUG MD-88 120
DOUG MD-90 16

NORTHWEST AIRLINES INC

AIRBUS A-319 66
AIRBUS A-320 75
AIRBUS A-330 21
BOEING B-747 43
BOEING B-757 71
DOUG DC-10 12
DOUG DC-9 152

SOUTHWEST AIRLINES CO

BOEING B-737 475

CONTINENTAL AIRLINES INC

BOEING B-737 254
BOEING B-757 58
BOEING B-767 26
BOEING B-777 18

Quoting MEACEDAR (Reply 6):
I think that they should start selling the planes they own, and start to lease instead.

United has sold or returned more than 20 744s, which has actually hurt them very baddly in their ability to expand, particularly since the ownership costs were so much lower than those of the 772ERs.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 7):
They are nearly all leased.

Actually, that isn't true, particularly for the widebody fleet.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineUnitedNRT From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 284 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 10958 times:

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 7):
When did delivery dates get set?

Dates were originally set for 2006 delivery but United pushed them back in 2005.

United had around 560 operational aircraft upon entering into bankruptcy and either lessors took aircraft back and United didn't bother pleading for the aircraft back a new rates or United decided they didn't need them.

United was thinking about the future by keeping options open in terms of its fleet, yet at the time of bankruptcy, United needed to take hold of its mounting losses and decrease capacity. So why pay leases for under-to-not utilized aircraft?

Imagine if United hadn't reduced capacity,its DIP loan providers would've seriously doubted United's plan as well as had a proverbial shitfit.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 7):
They are nearly all leased.

No. As it stands now, the fleet is half owned and half leased, with very nice lease rates for most aircraft.

Quoting MEACEDAR (Reply 9):

Why were they in Cha. 11? If they are not making money, people are not flying. Please enlighten me on the facts that you stated above.

Yields..yields...and how should i say...yields. Airlines had very low revenue premium to cover their massive costs. Around 2001 United was flying 75million passengers a year on mainline frames. It wasn't people not flying UA.

Quoting MEACEDAR (Reply 6):
This is way to much A/C for an airline.

American has over 700 aircraft, and had more to boot during 2001-2002, including Fokkers, B717, B767PW, DC9, etc.

Quoting MEACEDAR (Reply 6):
I think that they should start selling the planes they own, and start to lease instead.

One of the reasons bankruptcy was chosen was to lower leases on most of the aircraft. Leases were not competive at the time. United will not sell more aircraft to only lease them back as it brings them to stage 1 yet again.



"...That's a lovely name. My name's Milton; Milton Ettenheim, but my friends call me Bubbles."
User currently offlineUnitedNRT From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 284 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 10940 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 11):
particularly since the ownership costs were so much lower than those of the 772ERs.

the reason they got rid of those said B747-422 was the fact that lessors weren't willing to budge on the lease rates as they new certain carriers were interested in getting 300-400 seat haul rather quickly, ie Corsair.



"...That's a lovely name. My name's Milton; Milton Ettenheim, but my friends call me Bubbles."
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26414 posts, RR: 75
Reply 14, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 10895 times:

Quoting UnitedNRT (Reply 13):
the reason they got rid of those said B747-422 was the fact that lessors weren't willing to budge on the lease rates as they new certain carriers were interested in getting 300-400 seat haul rather quickly, ie Corsair.

Some of them were direct sales as I recall. All the 747s left in their fleet are owned AFAIK.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25056 posts, RR: 46
Reply 15, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 10887 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 11):
That, and the fact that their 737Classic fleet is among the newest and most advanced flying should combine to mean the 737s are sticking around for quite a while. Further, United has those 735s at a rather low capital cost, giving them a just over 100 seater with a decent CASM, something most of the US majors wish they could have.

UA's 735/733 CASM are higher than their A319/A320 fleet. This has been the achilles heal to the 737 fleet. Check out the DOT stats.

The airline on several occasions has said, they would like to sunset the 737 fleet sooner rather than later, and thus was quite aggresive with lease returns opportunities during its Ch11 filling.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25056 posts, RR: 46
Reply 16, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 10871 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 14):
All the 747s left in their fleet are owned AFAIK.

Several were leased from Bristol Associates, same party to some the 777s that were returned. Bristol was unwilling to play ball with lease rates to the extent of some of the other companies.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 17, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 10844 times:

Quoting UnitedNRT (Reply 12):
No. As it stands now, the fleet is half owned and half leased, with very nice lease rates for most aircraft.

By, units, about half. By value, not so. The aircraft that UA own are predominantly older and less valuable. The newer, more valuable aircraft tend to be leased. Yes, the lease rates are nice.


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26414 posts, RR: 75
Reply 18, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 10807 times:

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 17):
The aircraft that UA own are predominantly older and less valuable.

Value is relative. United has stated that their fully owned 744s are actually cheaper by trip cost as well as CASM than their 772ERs based on CASM.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26414 posts, RR: 75
Reply 19, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 10793 times:

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 16):
same party to some the 777s that were returned. Bristol was unwilling to play ball with lease rates to the extent of some of the other companies.

The interesting thing is, United was able to keep most of their 777 fleet intact and was able to rid themselves of some of their unnecessary 772As.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 15):
UA's 735/733 CASM are higher than their A319/A320 fleet. This has been the achilles heal to the 737 fleet. Check out the DOT stats

Naturally the CASM is higher as they are smaller aircraft.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 15):
The airline on several occasions has said, they would like to sunset the 737 fleet sooner rather than later, and thus was quite aggresive with lease returns opportunities during its Ch11 filling.

They did, however, return quite few of them and were able to move the rates down simply by threatening to RTL



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5495 posts, RR: 29
Reply 20, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 10750 times:

This has been a rather informative thread. It was particularly interesting to see the fleet comparisons - thanks N1120A.

So when exactly are they "allowed" to place a new aircraft order? I was assuming that after exiting bk they could do whatever they chose in that regard. Are there existing restrictions (beyond the obvious financial requirements) to ordering new aircraft?

Thanks for the interesting thread,

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlineAA777223 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1244 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 10690 times:

As for all the leasing talk, if I had to guess, and I am just guessing now, but I would bet that UA has some pretty smart and well paid analysts who have looked over their fleet plan and know exactly what aircraft should be leased, which should be owned and why. I bet they know what they are doing, and probably have a little more information than we are able to access.

Owning the aircraft certainly increases the equity of the company by increasing the assets, because as we all know equipment leases are liabilities on balance sheets. Now as to whether this proves to be beneficial to UA in their current financial situation is up to investors.



Sic 'em bears
User currently offlineUnitedNRT From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 284 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 10674 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 14):
All the 747s left in their fleet are owned AFAIK.

you may very well be correct. I recall leased B747 frames being disgarded first as I could not find financial data relating to the sale of B747 equipment from work as its rather limited.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 15):
UA's 735/733 CASM are higher than their A319/A320 fleet.

in terms of CASM yes, but on certain routes its been proven that the B733/735 are more cost effective than the A32X subtypes..such as ORD-MSP/PIT..routes within 500 miles.



"...That's a lovely name. My name's Milton; Milton Ettenheim, but my friends call me Bubbles."
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9585 posts, RR: 52
Reply 23, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 10643 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 11):
That, and the fact that their 737Classic fleet is among the newest and most advanced flying should combine to mean the 737s are sticking around for quite a while. Further, United has those 735s at a rather low capital cost, giving them a just over 100 seater with a decent CASM, something most of the US majors wish they could have.

The Embraer 170s and CRJ-700s are effectively replacing 737s on many many routes. The 70 seat Ex Plus regional jets have basically the same offerings as the 737s, but are newer and have subsidiaries operating them. Many routes from ORD to the Midwest are now served with E170s instead of 737s.

The 737s aren't bad, but people often forget that United does have tons of planes entering their fleet under the United Express banner. These jets are flying routes that use to be flown by mainline jets. Yes competitors like Continental has a newer fleet, but you also get many ERJ-145s where United operates more comfortable larger regional jets.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineOURBOEING From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 475 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 10591 times:

I think UA has aircraft in its current fleet that a lot of airlines still don't.

My opinion? I think UA is fine with what it has at this point.

OURBOEING


25 Post contains images MEACEDAR : Like what airlines?
26 Mptpa : You can have 100% load factor and still go bankrupt. Why? Because you are not making money, but burning money. If the yields are not there, you will
27 Zvezda : On very short routes, there is not much difference in CASM between the B737-300/500 and the A319/A320. On longer routes, the A319/A320 have a signifi
28 UnitedNRT : I have seen first hand that the B737-500/300 is cheaper to run on routes
29 Zvezda : What costs are you not counting in CASM?
30 WorldTraveler : There are more current statistics available for aircraft costs based on airline filings to the DOT but the general them is that none of the older gene
31 N1120A : Anytime they can come up with a deposit Not particularly. The 737s are lighter, which decreases their relative CASM on shorter routes vis a vis the A
32 Post contains images Laxintl : The 737s have poorer operating economics versus the A319/A320s at UA. Here are the companies per block hour cost numbers for the last 12months ending
33 AADC10 : That is only if you include the cost of the lease. That is like saying your paid off SUV has a lower operating cost than your leased Prius that you a
34 Laxintl : Since you guys have started to dabate the 777 vs 744, here are UA per block hour cost for the types. 747-400 Crew:$1100 Fuel:$5818 Ownership:$1094 Ins
35 N1120A : That doesn't make a damn bit of sense, given that the 735 should be burning less fuel per block hour than the 733 on weight alone. Wrong, and their C
36 Laxintl : Remember DOT crew numbers also include cabin crew. Its not just flight deck. Thats what the DOT 12mos numbers reflect. One thing to keep in mind is t
37 Supa7e7 : If they are used for exactly the same mission, but they aren't. 349 pax on a UA 744. It does appear 744s burn more fuel per pax at UA. Doubt the 744
38 Leothedog : That's known as..."Selling below cost and making it up by volumn".
39 N1120A : Yes, I understand that, but the flight deck differences are huge when you consider the relative percentage of 3 and 4 pilot flights on each fleet (I
40 Laxintl : There are multiple double augmented (4 person) UA 772 flights. Basically anything approching 12hrs+ block time including ORD/IAD-Asia, West Coast-Eur
41 Post contains images UAL757 : Didn't any of you hear about the big 787 order? HEHEHE HEHEHE -UAL757
42 Post contains images UAL757 : For those of you with no sense of humor, I was joking with my previous post! [Edited 2006-10-21 01:22:03]
43 Joeljack : What does the current united express fleet look like? Can anyone tell me how it will compare to the end of this year 2006, and the next couple of year
44 Jfk777 : United needs some 773ER for expansion and should place a 787 order while doing Business with Boeing.
45 Zvezda : A B787 order is a lot more likely than a B777-300ER order.
46 Ual777 : Wrong. Not true. They will probably do both. UA has wanted the 773 for some time.
47 ContinentalEWR : United's 737-300 and 737-500 are not newer classics. They are actually quite old.
48 United767 : I was told from high up at work (world headquarters) that they are not even thinking abut it till after 2010(which has been sugested on this post nume
49 UAL777UK : But surely they need to comsider placing deposits on aircraft in the very near future for delivery say 2010 or thereabouts otherwise they will miss th
50 N1120A : West Coast-Europe has 3 pilots, not 4. IAD currently only has 1 flight to Asia and KWI will be a 3 pilot mission, while a good deal of the ORD flying
51 Laxintl : Some of the double augmented 777 crews this winter include: ORD-NRT ORD-KIX ORD-PVG IAD-KWI IAD-NRT[Edited 2006-10-21 17:48:29]
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
United 733 Fleet Update posted Sun Jul 25 2004 17:52:01 by Ba319-131
Official United Reconfiguration And Fleet Update posted Tue Jul 24 2001 09:34:03 by SFOintern
328JET Fleet Update posted Wed Oct 4 2006 20:44:08 by SkyexRamper
Varig: 2007/2008 Plans & Fleet Update posted Fri Aug 4 2006 20:13:23 by LipeGIG
Varig Fleet Update (Less 2 752 And 1 73G) posted Wed Jul 26 2006 06:12:04 by LipeGIG
Varig : Fleet Update, News & Photos posted Fri Jul 14 2006 15:23:14 by LipeGIG
KLM Fleet Update/plans 2006 posted Thu Jan 5 2006 01:23:36 by MauriceB
Bmibaby Fleet Update? posted Mon Dec 26 2005 01:52:27 by ACdreamliner
United's Fleet After Bankruptcy? posted Sun Oct 23 2005 03:14:33 by BoeingFever777
Thai Sky Airlines - Fleet Update Requested! posted Fri Jul 29 2005 20:44:01 by Notarzt