Walter747 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 1440 posts, RR: 5 Posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 3999 times:
how come US doesn't have any intrest in Asian routes. I know they have an alliance with UA, but why wouldn't they wan to have their own. I know the A330 isn't capable of that trip but they could use other planes that have been stored or buy some especially since they're not in ch. 11 anymore
FCYTravis From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 1191 posts, RR: 6 Reply 1, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 3994 times:
US needs their 10 A332s first, and those are scheduled for delivery beginning in 2009. The A332 can open up routes like PHX-LGW and PHL-NRT (assuming they didn't decide to run Asian flights out of PHX.) But that's a few years down the road yet.
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Steeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 8816 posts, RR: 19 Reply 2, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 3940 times:
I still think that Asia will happen out of PHL before PHX... Much larger O&D, as well as regional feed. It would be nice to see them [PHL] land All Nippon Airways or SQ, or both... then they could start something along the lines of a Star Alliance hub, which would be rather neat at PHL... Yet... where's the room for this?
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
Walter747 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 1440 posts, RR: 5 Reply 3, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 3929 times:
why does it take so long for them to get their a332's
FCYTravis From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 1191 posts, RR: 6 Reply 4, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 3924 times:
Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 2): I still think that Asia will happen out of PHL before PHX...
I don't think so. Flying out of PHL to Tokyo represents a huge backhaul for most people - who's going to fly STL-PHL-NRT? They'll have far more feed possibilities going westbound through PHX.
PHX is not exactly chopped liver when it comes to O&D, either.
[Edited 2006-10-22 06:05:26]
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Steeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 8816 posts, RR: 19 Reply 5, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 3904 times:
Well true, they could either fly US from STL-PHX-NRT, or AA from STL-ORD-NRT or wherever AA flies over in Asia. I am sure they fly to NRT, don't they?
But, coming back to PHL, what about people flying up from the south? How about ATL-PHL-NRT or MCO or CLT, RDU, DCA? And how about some folks from the near west, like PIT? As PIT surely as heck won't support any N/S Asia service...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
SJUSXM From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 271 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 3889 times:
PHL has a brand new international terminal
it sits almost empty in the morning and early afternoon until US's european bank comes in. Most flights on the east coast to asia leave around noon so if US, or any other Asian carrier wanted to start a flight im sure there would be space for them.
FCYTravis From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 1191 posts, RR: 6 Reply 7, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 3885 times:
Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 5): But, coming back to PHL, what about people flying up from the south? How about ATL-PHL-NRT or MCO or CLT, RDU, DCA?
All those cities have non-stop US service to Phoenix which could connect to a PHX-NRT flight. A DCA-PHX-NRT itinerary is reasonably competitive, time and distance-wise, because the connecting flight is going in the right direction.
But nobody, and I mean nobody, is going to fly, say, ABQ-PHX-PHL-NRT. The itinerary goes 2,500 miles in the wrong direction, and requires a double-connect to boot! Which is the other issue with PHL - there are many, many fewer PHL-West spokes than PHX-East spokes.
USAir A321 service now departing for SFO with fuel stops in CAK, COS and RNO. Enjoy your flight.
AirportPlan From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 469 posts, RR: 3 Reply 9, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 3722 times:
US does not have the equipment, rights nor the slots (at NRT)to fly from PHX-NRT so this will not happen anytime soon. I could potentially take them years just to obtain these if they were interested in doing so.
Bobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5985 posts, RR: 9 Reply 10, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 3695 times:
Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 4): PHX is not exactly chopped liver when it comes to O&D, either.
Do you have the numbers?
Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 7): A DCA-PHX-NRT itinerary is reasonably competitive, time and distance-wise, because the connecting flight is going in the right direction.
Since PHX is not on the way between DCA-NRT, it is not competitive with say DCA-DTW-NRT or DCA-ORD-NRT. It is over 900 miles farther!!
FCYTravis From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 1191 posts, RR: 6 Reply 11, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 3602 times:
Why yes, I do. PHX is a bigger total O&D market than Philadelphia. 20.8 million to 13.4 million. However, US West has a smaller O&D share of PHX because of Southwest's strong presence.
Annual O&D for each respective hub carrier in 2004:
1 PHL (Philadelphia, PA) 6,527,660
2 PHX (Phoenix, AZ) 5,545,080
Those aren't chopped liver numbers by any means.
Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 10): Since PHX is not on the way between DCA-NRT, it is not competitive with say DCA-DTW-NRT or DCA-ORD-NRT. It is over 900 miles farther!!
900 miles in the right direction is substantially more competitive than 2,500 miles in the wrong direction with double-connections required from all but eight cities west of the Rockies. (LAS, PDX, SFO, PHX, SEA, LAX and SAN are the only places with nonstop service to PHL or CLT.)
USAir A321 service now departing for SFO with fuel stops in CAK, COS and RNO. Enjoy your flight.
FCYTravis From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 1191 posts, RR: 6 Reply 13, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 3562 times:
I'm not arguing that DCA-PHX-NRT is supremely competitive. I'm arguing that as a connecting route, it is more competitive than forcing US West customers to backhaul all the way to PHL to get to Asia.
Where's UA's major Asian gateway, ORD or SFO? I rest my case.
The easiest way to solve this problem would be to launch PHX and PHL service to Tokyo simultaneously
USAir A321 service now departing for SFO with fuel stops in CAK, COS and RNO. Enjoy your flight.
Supa7e7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 14, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 3535 times:
Look, going to Asia is pretty much straight north from most of the USA. That's why PHL would be rather good from the entire East Coast, particularly from Florida, RDU, DCA, etc.
PHX is in a bad location for Asian routes. No realistic expectation of California traffic. You've got Vegas, Texas (already served), Albuquerque and Tuscon. Nowhere else is well served from Phoenix, certainly not the East Coast. PHX may get an NRT flight someday but mainly for locals. It's pretty much the worst spot in the country for an Asian hub, far worse than ORD or DTW for example. And here's the kicker, LAX and SFO do a great job with PHX demand to Asia already.
But PHX is a great location for Hawaii, Tahiti or even SYD. Their Hawaii connections DCA-PHX-KOA for example are great.
FlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15 Reply 16, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week ago) and read 3453 times:
NRT isn't a good option for US due to the fact that getting slots there is just not likely anytime soon. PEK and PVG are much beter, more likely asian destinations.
US' 767-200ER's have 6,600 nm of range, the A330-200 will have 6,750nm of range - only 250 more, so any asian routes they would do with A332, they could do now with 762ER.
PHL-PEK: 5,977nm
PHL-PVG: 6,452nm (that's stretching it)
PHX-PEK: 5,648nm - assuming its not a hot day, no problems
PHX-PVG: 5,887nm
So really, PHL isn't much further than PHX, and doesn't have the weather issues, moreover, anything they'll be able to do with the A332s, they can run now with 762ERs. Also, China makes a better destination for them, since slots into NRT won't happen, and KIX has been problematic for US airlines. ICN might be another option. HKG is just out of range.
Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 1): PHL-NRT (assuming they didn't decide to run Asian flights out of PHX.) But that's a few years down the road yet.
PHL makes more sense than PHX for a number of reasons. Firstly, It isn't really any further away from most asian destinations than PHX. Secondly, PHX has 115 degree summer days in which a 762ER or A332 would have trouble getting airborne with a full load of fuel and payload without weight restrictions. Plus, they'd need to get slots at NRT. Good luck.
Quoting Ca2ohHP (Reply 15): Good question. I really wish we would move up the order.
Now that US' finances are in order, that might be more realistic. Seeing as the 762s are still flying fine and recently were overhauled, I don't know that they are hurting so bad for the A332s capacity at the moment.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
Gilesdavies From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2884 posts, RR: 1 Reply 17, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3455 times:
Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 1): The A332 can open up routes like PHX-LGW and PHL-NRT (assuming they didn't decide to run Asian flights out of PHX.)
Even though the A330-200 is a very capable aircraft.
PHL-NRT is beyond the reach of this type of aircraft and PHX-NRT is within the reach eastbound but westbound flying against the winds will stretch the A332's limits.
I don't think the A340 is even an aircraft US Airways would want to consider, but they would need to be looking towards this kind of aircraft to fly to Asia. Maybe they could acquire a few A343's from AC as a stop gap until the A350 XWB arrive in 6yrs!
FCYTravis From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 1191 posts, RR: 6 Reply 18, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3407 times:
Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 16): US' 767-200ER's have 6,600 nm of range, the A330-200 will have 6,750nm of range - only 250 more, so any asian routes they would do with A332, they could do now with 762ER.
Wrong. US Airways' 762ERs simply do not have that sort of range. Remember, they were intended for an airline focusing exclusively on transatlantic and transcontinental services. They do not have the gross weight or the engine performance to reach the range limit of the 762ER family.
Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 16): Seeing as the 762s are still flying fine and recently were overhauled.
The 762s have not been recently overhauled. They *will be* given an interior makeover next winter, with new lie-flat seats in the Envoy cabin and probably a new IFE system, at least up front.
Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 17): Maybe they could acquire a few A343's from AC as a stop gap until the A350 XWB arrive in 6yrs!
That will never happen. You'll see US refuse to take up the A350 order first and go in on some 787s instead. Remember, US is under absolutely zero obligation to accept the A350XWB - it's a 777-sized aircraft now, completely different from the plane they originally ordered.
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Vega From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 19, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3401 times:
Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 4): I don't think so. Flying out of PHL to Tokyo represents a huge backhaul for most people - who's going to fly STL-PHL-NRT? They'll have far more feed possibilities going westbound through PHX.
Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 11): Why yes, I do. PHX is a bigger total O&D market than Philadelphia. 20.8 million to 13.4 million. However, US West has a smaller O&D share of PHX because of Southwest's strong presence.
Although your point is well taken that PHX may be a better NRT connector for western travelers than PHL, you neglect that AA, CO, UA and several Asian carriers all have non-stop service to NRT from the East Coast, thereby confirming that North/South and International feeds via the East Coast to Japan must be adequate. PHX would possibly have the same problem with Western feeds to Asia as PHL in the respect that the largest Japanese American population lives on the Pacific Coast and Hawaii. Why would they backtrack to PHX with so many non-stop flights to Japan from LAX, SFO, SJC, SEA and even PDX? Remember PHX-NRT was previously attempted with HP. It did very poorly and was quickly dropped. Unfortunately as you know the 332 has the potential restricted max range for PHL-KIX (for example) only and possibly even PHX-KIX only because of the summer heat - anything beyond needs to wait for the 350 or a replacement aircraft such as the 787-800. On the ? of O&D; Domestic O&D is possibly not an accurate measurement of viability when discussing international travel. The 2005 International O&D Numbers for PHL were 1.82M (O) and 1.83M (D); for PHX 871K (O) and 873K (D) - a significant difference of 2 million passengers. Further, most of the PHX O&D was for travel to/from Mexico. One would assume that US has already negotiated a fallback to the 350 delays with Airbus, a leasing company or ?, since they surely cannot wait for the 20 - 350XWB deliveries to start in 2014 - or later. A final point, dismissing all the problems with US domestic at PHL, a few Asian flights from there would give US a lot more stature as a global player - in my view, than one from PHX or elsewhere.
FCYTravis From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 1191 posts, RR: 6 Reply 20, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3402 times:
Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 16): I don't know that they are hurting so bad for the A332s capacity at the moment.
They are hurting *very bad* for the A332 capacity at the moment. The European expansion has stretched the US widebody fleet to its limit and beyond. Several more 757s will be ETOPSed this winter so more long-thin cities can be opened up. The lack of aircraft and gate space are the only things keeping US from making PHL into a dominant European gateway in competition with CO/EWR and DL/JFK.
USAir A321 service now departing for SFO with fuel stops in CAK, COS and RNO. Enjoy your flight.
FCYTravis From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 1191 posts, RR: 6 Reply 21, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3391 times:
Quoting Vega (Reply 19): Remember PHX-NRT was previously attempted with HP. It did very poorly and was quickly dropped.
Again, that's not true.
The old HP Japan service was PHX-HNL-NGO and was a disaster, using old ex-KLM 747-200s. One-stop service over HNL in a very big aircraft to a very secondary Japanese destination on a very-fledgling and highly-leveraged LCC... yeah, that was pretty much destined to fail.
Now we're talking about the fifth-largest U.S. airline with a much stronger hub, the right-sized aircraft with the ability to go non-stop, alliance feed and billions of dollars in the bank. A completely different scenario.
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Vega From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 22, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3367 times:
Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 21): The old HP Japan service was PHX-HNL-NGO and was a disaster, using old ex-KLM 747-200s. One-stop service over HNL in a very big aircraft to a very secondary Japanese destination on a very-fledgling and highly-leveraged LCC... yeah, that was pretty much destined to fail.
Seems like your're attempting to extract the miniscule portion of my post to make your point. Regardless, US would not be able to fly to anything but a secondary city in Japan - so that situation still applies. I do not believe the PHX location has the drawing power, when compared to PHL as I expressed earlier, to make Japan work especially for premium revenue - which would be mandatory for the relatively small size 332. I am not at all negative about US trying a PHX-Japan flight IF there is no better alternative.
Walter747 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 1440 posts, RR: 5 Reply 23, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3332 times:
how they can't get slots at HND or fly to a different destination such as ICN or KIX. They could do a PHL-HNL-NRT or HND or where ever they chose. why isn't that possible. US is the only "legacy" carrier that doesn't have routes in asia. It's time for themselves to establish some kind of route in asia.
Walter747 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 1440 posts, RR: 5 Reply 24, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3333 times:
and is that picture of the A343 real?
Hussel, Hussel, Husel, Grind, Grind, Grind
25 AirportPlan: You need rights to fly to PEK or PVG. AA, CO, DL, NW and UA are all aleady in line for the next batch of China rights to be issued this year and two
26 Burnsie28: Yeah it is a stretch since NW can't even fly an 747-400 fully loaded from DTW-PVG.
27 Steeler83: I'd say it's about as real as a unicorn or Pegasus I think someone used photoshop er something of the type on some random pic of an A343 to make it i
28 Vega: Regarding the China agreements. That could easily change if Chinese airlines could make money on their flights to the U.S. and thereby increase the n
29 Vega: If you don't mind my asking, where did you derive the 6600 nm from for "US" 767-200s?
30 Steeler83: Yeah, I don't think those numbers are accurate either. The 763 has about 5700 or 5800nm range, and I believe that this bird, of all 767 aircraft, has
31 Walter747: So why doesn't US chose HND or NRT they chose LGW over LHR
32 SFORunner: Absolutely correct. US is going to have a tough time competing with its own Star Alliance partners, not to mention CO, AA, and others .... UA: 2 x OR
33 Walter747: how come everyone assumes US will choose NRT over HND or if they even want to fly to china. Look what they did in London they chose LGW over LHR. Ther
34 FCYTravis: They didn't "choose" LGW over LHR. They fly into LGW because they're forced to by the anti-competitive Bermuda 2. But that's a whole different thread
35 EVA777SEA: According to Boeing the 762 has the greatest range out of the 3 767s.
36 AirportPlan: US is not allowed to fly to LHR. AA and UA are the only U.S. carriers allowed to fly to LHR. CO, DL, NW and US can not fly into LHR.
37 Walter747: oh i see now, but how come they can't fly into HND then?
38 Walter747: what US should do if they can do it is apply for the a china route and code share the flight with UA until they get their new A332's
42 MCOflyer: I believe the US 767's have a 5500-5700 mile range. In order to get 6700miles, you need to upgrade the GE engines, and add fuel capacity. MCOflyer
43 Aero0729: I agree, I always thought of the west coast US as Mini-China, even PHX has rowing number of Asian visitors. It is a HUGE leisure market and a continu
44 Boeing 747-311: one thing that i noticed that you guys didnt mention, is that is there a market for asian routes? no foreign carrier has decided that it is a lucrativ
45 Walter747: i think US could benifit from any asian route, but im still wondering why you cant fly to HND on us airline
46 Treebeard787: It's actually 6 times a week, BA288/289 does not operate on wed.
47 Centrair: Not an option. HND is not like LGW. HND is mostly domestic, regional international and international charter flights. NRT is the only airport in Toky
48 Walter747: thank you but why doesn't US get some planes lying around the dessert or take a few out of storage until the get their 332's, this is what US is lacki
49 FCYTravis: LAS would not be a very good option for several reasons. One, it doesn't have nearly as much feed as PHX; two, yields would be substantially lower; t
50 Carpethead: No they don't. Hence, the current situation, which is codesharing with NH/UA. Aircrafts that can do PHL-NRT are A343/A345/A346, 742, 744, 747SP, 772E
51 Centrair: Kind of difficult. N531AW (cn 19922/96) Flew for KLM then HP Broken up at IGM in 1996 N533AW (cn 19924/138) Flew for KLM then HP Broken up at MHV in
52 Walter747: there has to be some a/c hanging around that they can use there are probobly plenty in the desert or even the 2 343's boeing was selling
53 FCYTravis: Actually, that's wrong. US has a couple billion dollars in available cash. They're in one of the strongest financial positions of any US carrier. Eit
54 N1120A: Which would piss off BA to no end since the route would likely have to leave Heathrow That includes a massive amount of domestic and Canadian transbo
55 FlyDreamliner: The 767-200 ER has the longest range of the 767 family at 6,600 nm, the 767-400ER has somewhere around 5,450 nm and the 767-300 ER is somewhere in be
57 Bobnwa: Isn't most of their available cash borrowed?
58 SparkingWave: No you can't rest your case... UA is also beginning to fly to Asia from IAD. US can't get flights to Asia, because they would never stand up to the c
59 Naritaflyer: The availability of space is never a factor when choosing a destination. No space at Narita and yet no shortage of airline clamoring to fly there. Sa
60 2travel2know: If PHX heat is an issue, a red-eye US B767-200 PHX-NGO (arr NGO around 0500h w/arr PHX 0500h) wouldn't work?
61 PEK18R36L: The capacity situation at NRT will change when they extend 16L/34R to its full length and straighten the warped taxiway (apparently only one more hol
62 FCYTravis: In a word, no. From the most recent LCC 10-Q: As of June 30, 2006, US Airways Group’s cash, cash equivalents, short-term investments and restricted
63 Warreng24: For added capacity, how would a 764ER stack up as an addition to US's fleet? 1) Not as big as a 777. 2) Doesn't suck fuel like a A340. 3) Fleet common
64 Walter747: if PHL is to ar why don't they fly out of BOS since its a focus city it could open more flights and increase the international destinations. KA used t
65 SFORunner: I would imagine by the time they would be able to get their hands on one, their pre-ordered A332s would start to arrive.
66 Walter747: i actuallt meant to say far at the beginning and instead of KA i mean Korean Air
67 N1120A: Not really, you are probably thinking of United. The HP/US merger put together a carrier that was profitable and in a pretty good cash position (HP)
68 Walter747: i think they should try to get a few 764ER's, but as i said before how come they don't trya BOS route to Asia especially since there are no other asia
69 Gigneil: 764s would be a disasterous addition. They're the least capable 767 available, share actually little commonality with the rest of the 767 fleet, and
70 Walter747: well then what would be the appropriate plane for them to get to opperate an asian service for the time being and a BOS-NRT or KIX would be a good fli
71 Gigneil: A few flights isn't a strong international gateway, that's the problem. Boston is good for some feed from the Northeast. If US wanted to get into the
72 Walter747: so after all this happens how long do you think it would be (if they decide to) before it starts or they announce it
73 N1120A: With what aircraft? The 764ERs you think they should fly would end up in the middle of the Pacific. I assume that Boeing could use similar flight dec
74 Walter747: i was just browsing the database and i noticed there are a lot of 742's in storage at MHV and other places. could that a/c fit the route?
75 Walter747: sorry i forgot to include this but, what about the ex-AC 744's they just retired?
76 N1120A: Those are all at other carriers and would fit in absolutely no way with the US fleet anyway. Why in the world would they want to use an outdated, ine
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