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KLM MD-11 At SFO This Morning  
User currently offlineGoomba From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 309 posts, RR: 1
Posted (7 years 11 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 11015 times:

I am wondering if anyone can explain why there was a KLM MD-11 at SFO this morning at 8:30 am PT?

I realize that the KLM MD-11 is a daily arrival into SFO, but why was she here so early? Was this yesterday's flight that didn't go out for some reason? If so, why not?

48 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineWalter747 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 1440 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (7 years 11 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 10984 times:

where else do their md-11's operate


Hussel, Hussel, Husel, Grind, Grind, Grind
User currently offlineLegacyins From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2077 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 11 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 10984 times:

KL 606 went mechanical on Friday. Something wrong with the #3 engine. At about 1530 today, they taxied it out to a holding area at the end of 1L/R and fired up the engines. It was a very calm and warm day today and I heard the engines all the was back at Terminal A. It departed at about 1830 tonight from G99.

KL 605 arrived as usual this afternoon.



John@SFO
User currently onlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4504 posts, RR: 71
Reply 3, posted (7 years 11 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 10911 times:

As said KL606/20OCT had a technical issue which first delayed the flight until noon/21OCT but finally the flight didn't take off until late at night. It is currently expected to arrive at AMS at 16.44LT or just about 30 hours behind schedule.

User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21529 posts, RR: 59
Reply 4, posted (7 years 11 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 10868 times:

What happens when a plane is delayed more than 24 hours and the same flight leaves the next day. How are pax reaccomodated? I assume they were put on other flights, but if I were forced to stick around till the next day and then saw the next day's flight leave before my original flight, I'd be a little bit annoyed.


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 11 months 3 days ago) and read 10820 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
What happens when a plane is delayed more than 24 hours and the same flight leaves the next day. How are pax reaccomodated?

It's happened to me a half dozen times on flights to the mainland departing from Kona when there was NO possibility of being re-accommodated on an earlier flight, in one case the delayed flight departed more than 36 hours late. Such are the joys of being a frequent flyer from an isolated station.


User currently onlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4504 posts, RR: 71
Reply 6, posted (7 years 11 months 3 days ago) and read 10799 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
What happens when a plane is delayed more than 24 hours and the same flight leaves the next day. How are pax reaccomodated? I assume they were put on other flights, but if I were forced to stick around till the next day and then saw the next day's flight leave before my original flight, I'd be a little bit annoyed.

I would imagine that the station would do its best to reaccomodate a many passengers as possible, and that the original flight, which is currently returning to AMS, would be virtually empty because of that.


User currently offlinePHKLM From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Dec 2005, 1198 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 10748 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 3):
As said KL606/20OCT had a technical issue which first delayed the flight until noon/21OCT but finally the flight didn't take off until late at night. It is currently expected to arrive at AMS at 16.44LT or just about 30 hours behind schedule.

I know A/C tend to go MX at times, but it's *again* the M11...
We've said this many times; but KL must operate the birds for free, otherwise there is no economic sense to update and refurbish such an unreliable set of M11's.
Who owns these birds? KLM, ILFC?
What is the sales value of an M11 in 2015? This must be virtually 0, especially because a whole lot of airplanes will enter the second hand market at that time, when the 787 and 350 have hit steady production rates.
Why don't they order the 767-400 as a replacement?  duck   Wink


User currently onlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4504 posts, RR: 71
Reply 8, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 10712 times:

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 7):
I know A/C tend to go MX at times, but it's *again* the M11...

While the MD11 has regular hickups in the KLM longhaul fleet, and as a result of that probably features the lowest dispatch reliability of all KLM longhaul components, I don't think the problem should be exaggerated.

There are sometimes issues with other aircraft as well. Just last week, an A332 was unserviceable for a couple of days and later there were some issues with the B74Es as well, resulting in the cancelation of a KWI service (A332) and after that a KUL-CGK roundtrip (B74E).

KLM boasts high utilization for its longhaul fleet, and while this is commercially beneficial, the downside is that the operation becomes relatively more prone to operational instabilities in case of maintenance related issues because high utilization inevitably entails less spare capacity and a loss of operational degrees of freedom.

Add to that the relatively small 10-strong MD11 fleet - industry standard for a stable operation would be more than 10 frames - and the ongoing program of cabin refurbishment for the MD11s, which keeps at least one frame on the ground at all times, and it isn't hard to realize that the operation is prone to irregularities.


User currently offlineWSOY From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 10436 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 8):
Add to that the relatively small 10-strong MD11 fleet - industry standard for a stable operation would be more than 10 frames


Can name a couple of enterprises that are not up that industrial standard and hence must be unstable.


User currently onlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4504 posts, RR: 71
Reply 10, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 10417 times:

Quoting WSOY (Reply 9):
Can name a couple of enterprises that are not up that industrial standard and hence must be unstable.

That's right, and that is the reason why limited fleet size - typically less that ten identically configured frames - very often goes hand in hand with somewhat lower utilization rates. Operational instability is reinforced by the combination of a limited fleet size with high utilization rates. KLM, for one, champions high utilization rates.


User currently offlineWSOY From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 10371 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 10):
That's right, and that is the reason why limited fleet size - typically less that ten identically configured frames - very often goes hand in hand with somewhat lower utilization rates

Can you quote me some of those rates for selected MD11 operators?


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26493 posts, RR: 75
Reply 12, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 10331 times:

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 5):
It's happened to me a half dozen times on flights to the mainland departing from Kona when there was NO possibility of being re-accommodated on an earlier flight, in one case the delayed flight departed more than 36 hours late. Such are the joys of being a frequent flyer from an isolated station.

They couldn't just ship you up to HNL or OGG?

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 7):
What is the sales value of an M11 in 2015? This must be virtually 0, especially because a whole lot of airplanes will enter the second hand market at that time, when the 787 and 350 have hit steady production rates.

The sales value on an M11 will still be strong because the cargo carriers will still want them for their ability to lift heavy and relatively low cost. Further, the commercial value to KLM of having a still efficient, long range aircraft far outweighs that of selling them now and having to invest even more in expensive new aircraft.

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 7):
Why don't they order the 767-400 as a replacement?

Range, range, range and did I mention range?



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlinePHKLM From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Dec 2005, 1198 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 10262 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 12):
Range, range, range and did I mention range?

Although I was just kidding about the 764, isn't the range of the 764 enough for all the routes that KLM operates the M11 on?
I thought the range was 5600nm, that brings you to a lot of places from AMS.

Anyway, a pity KLM did not decide to replace the M11's with 777's.


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26493 posts, RR: 75
Reply 14, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 10247 times:

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 13):
Although I was just kidding about the 764, isn't the range of the 764 enough for all the routes that KLM operates the M11 on?
I thought the range was 5600nm, that brings you to a lot of places from AMS.



As it is, 763ERs have trouble at times of the year making West Coast-CDG, a 764ER would find it even more troublesome

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 13):
Anyway, a pity KLM did not decide to replace the M11's with 777's.

Actually, they are.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 15, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 10247 times:

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 13):

Anyway, a pity KLM did not decide to replace the M11's with 777's.

While possible not a direct replacement (dont' know that)..KL has added 777's to their fleet (and will be adding more in the future).. biggrin 


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"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineWarreng24 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 707 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 8843 times:

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 7):
What is the sales value of an M11 in 2015? This must be virtually 0, especially because a whole lot of airplanes will enter the second hand market at that time, when the 787 and 350 have hit steady production rates.

Used MD-11's are in VERY high demand for conversion into freighters.


User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 8169 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 12):
They couldn't just ship you up to HNL or OGG?

That doesn't seem to be a viable option when the delayed/cancelled flight is scheduled to leave Kona after 9PM local time (overnight/red-eye flights) when inter-island service has ended or is about to end for the day. Even if they send the passengers on to HNL or OGG the next day to catch flights to the mainland, assuming there's space available on the requisite inter-island and mainland flights to provide such "re-accommodations," the delayed passengers still won't depart for the mainland until the next afternoon or evening anyway.


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26493 posts, RR: 75
Reply 18, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 8159 times:

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 17):
That doesn't seem to be a viable option when the delayed/cancelled flight is scheduled to leave Kona after 9PM local time (overnight/red-eye flights) when inter-island service has ended or is about to end for the day. Even if they send the passengers on to HNL or OGG the next day to catch flights to the mainland, assuming there's space available on the requisite inter-island and mainland flights to provide such "re-accommodations," the delayed passengers still won't depart for the mainland until the next afternoon or evening anyway.

You have a point, though you could say that is true of almost any red-eye situation



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently onlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4504 posts, RR: 71
Reply 19, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 8117 times:

Sunday night's KL606 SFO again faced technical problems, and left SFO over 6 hours late.

Quoting WSOY (Reply 11):
Can you quote me some of those rates for selected MD11 operators?

Will get back to you on that one as soon as I get some numbers together.


User currently offlineCopaair737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 8116 times:

Does KLM fly the 747 to SFO at all? I seem to recall them saying they were adding them for the summer season, but did they? And do the 777s fly there anymore?

-Copa


User currently offlineWSOY From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 8103 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 19):
Can you quote me some of those rates for selected MD11 operators?

Will get back to you on that one as soon as I get some numbers together.

Thanks, I'd appreciate that. Some hard work that, if the numbers are not precompiled. My hunch is that some with the largest MD-11 fleet have the lowest utilisation rate.


User currently offlinePHKLM From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Dec 2005, 1198 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days ago) and read 8083 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 15):
While possible not a direct replacement (dont' know that)..KL has added 777's to their fleet (and will be adding more in the future)..

I know, love watching them on take-off from the viewing terrace at AMS when they use runway 24.
My point is, the 777 is not an M11 replacement, as they (M11) will stay in the fleet until 2015. By that time, KLM will choose between the 350 and 787, it's highly unlikely they go for the -by that time- almost 20 year old 777.
Can't wait to fly the 77W on KLM though, that will be a stunning looking bird.


User currently onlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4504 posts, RR: 71
Reply 23, posted (7 years 11 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8026 times:

Quoting Copaair737 (Reply 20):
Does KLM fly the 747 to SFO at all?

KLM will operate the B744 in full pax version on KL605/606 AMS SFO AMS during the summer season 2007. The flight has been operated by MD11 ever since the B772 was taken of the route at the end of the summer schedule 2005.


User currently onlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4504 posts, RR: 71
Reply 24, posted (7 years 11 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 7961 times:

Quoting WSOY (Reply 21):
Thanks, I'd appreciate that. Some hard work that, if the numbers are not precompiled. My hunch is that some with the largest MD-11 fleet have the lowest utilisation rate.

I have some of those numbers available because of previous research. Your intuition is not correct. As I predicted, the larger fleet mostly results in the greater utilization rate. Anyway, here are some numbers:

KLM (10 frames) - based on data from earlier this summer, (read about it here) average daily utilization for the MD11 fleet is 16 hours 58 minutes

Finnair (7 frames) - based on data for this week, average daily utilization for the MD11 fleet is 16 hours 00 minutes

Swissair (19 frames) - based on data of 5 years ago (read about it in this old thread), the airline had an average daily utilization rate of 17 hours 16 minutes

Sabena (2 frames) - based on data of the same time, Sabena had an average daily utilization of 14 hours 57 minutes

All of these numbers reflect utilization in the northern summer season, which are typically higher than those during the calmer winter season. I somewhere have numbers for Alitalia's MD11 utilization, which I remember to be in the 13 hours range, but I somehow can't seem to find them.

Larger fleets typically allow the airlines involve to jack up utilization without jeopardizing operational stability. It is clear, though, that all utilization rates quoted above are above industry average, partly because they concern peak season figures, but also partly because these airlines squeeze maximum utilization out of their fleet. As a result, both Finnair's and KLM's MD11 operation is not particularly stable, and relatively prone to delays.


25 Post contains images Lamedianaranja : But you have already experienced some annoyance because of your delay and if at that point the airline starts bumping off passengers to accommodate d
26 WSOY : Nice work HB-IWC! Actually with "a large fleet" I was hoping the numbers for FedEx and the like might be revelead. Think I saw somewhere a number of
27 HB-IWC : I don't have the utilization rates for FedEX, and I am not saying that the rate you quote is impossible, but at the very least it seems highly unlike
28 WSOY : I see that. But if someone says they have much of a "peak traffic", I'd agree.
29 HB-IWC : Another bad streak of delays in the KLM MD11 operation yesterday when 3 MD11 operated flight left AMS multiple hours late, and hence are returning wit
30 Post contains images Jacobin777 : damn right...I can't either... ahh..got you.. ....certainly they will go either with the A350 or B787....will be interesting to see how they do this.
31 EHHO : I heard it's going to be a low-yield pax plane mostly, with 3-4-3 seating. Good luck!
32 Post contains images PHKLM : Trying to rain on my parade right? I can't see why KLM would order 3 77W's (not exactly a cheap airplane), and then deploy them on low-yielding route
33 Post contains images WSOY : But if these planes had been members of a fleet of 20 instead, they would have sensed it and repaired themselves...
34 HB-IWC : If these planes had been members of a 20-strong fleet instead, the odds that some spare capacity was on the ground would have been way better and cha
35 EHHO : Sorry, posted in wrong thread. Please ignore.[Edited 2006-10-25 16:09:59]
36 WSOY : At any given moment, are there really planes waiting to be acting as a replacement with the major companies? Where are they located?
37 Post contains images EHHO : At the hub of the airline? Just my
38 PHKLM : HB-IWC meant that if you own a larger number of planes of the same type, the chances you have a spare frame available at any given time are much high
39 Mk777 : When are KLM's 763 being retired, if at all? AMS-IAD-AMS (KL 651/652) currently gets 763 (days 1,2,4,5&6) or the 332 (days 3&7). I am wondering if thi
40 PHKLM : The 763 is replaced by the 332. Current schedule: 11/2006 PH-BZG 01/2007 PH-BZH 02/2007 PH-BZI 03/2007 PH-BZO 03/2007 PH-BZM 04/2007 PH-BZK
41 HB-IWC : Here are the remaining B763 destinations for the upcoming winter schedule as well as the dates the last B763 flight on those routes: Tehran - last fl
42 WSOY : I understood that point. But, I see no real evidence that such "spare" airframes exist in reality at all! The point that he makes about "the larger c
43 Mk777 : Thanks for the info HB-IWC..very much appreciated. It will be nice to see the B772ER in KLM colours from my patio on approach 19L in July 2007.
44 Post contains links HB-IWC : Well, one more time, your suspicion is wrong. Some of us here actually do work in airline operations and are involved in scheduling and network desig
45 Mk777 : One more thing...does KLM do AMS-DEL on an MD-11 still or did they change to B772ER? I remember 2 years ago, i almost missed my flight from DEL to AMS
46 HB-IWC : KL871/872 AMS DEL changes back to B772ER this winter, but is again scheduled with MD11 for next summer. A lot of airlines upgrade capacity to India d
47 WSOY : Some of me just wonder where these "spare" airframes are at any given moment, and why are they not making money to their owners like they are suppose
48 HB-IWC : We are not talking about the performance of one individual aircraft here. It is the performance of the overall system which improves with increasing
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