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MD-90 Ownership Costs  
User currently offlineFLY777UAL From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4512 posts, RR: 3
Posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 5224 times:

With so few MD-90s flying around (in comparison to the A32X and 737NG families) and such a small second-hand market for the aircraft, what are the ownership costs like when compared to similar aircraft?

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L

26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 5096 times:

Not bad at all. The engines are still produced, supported and used on other aircraft... the avionics suite is still produced, used and supported on other aircraft.... the airframe is still just an MD-80 which is still used and supported.


"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24881 posts, RR: 46
Reply 2, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 5030 times:

According to some documents I have, a MD-90 lease could be had as a couple months ago for about $115,000 per month.

Definately a steal compare to an A319 @ $225-305,000 or a 737-700 for $225-330,000.

Problem with the MD-90 is its relative scarcity in both airframes, plus support.
In addition the crewing end requires seperate training from the MD-80s. Both SAS and DL have tried hard to be allowed to operate the type with the same pool of pilots however have been forced to keep a fence around their MD-90s due regulations.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineDeltaGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 4850 times:

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 2):
In addition the crewing end requires seperate training from the MD-80s. Both SAS and DL have tried hard to be allowed to operate the type with the same pool of pilots however have been forced to keep a fence around their MD-90s due regulations.

Hardly. DL MD-88 pilots also fly the 90. It depends what base you're at, the DFW pilots routinely flew the 88 and 90 on the same trip...I once had an 88 leg through DFW a 90 leg with the same crew. Now the SLC guys are flying it more, but yes, they both fly it.

It's merely differences training, which is built into the approved syllabus and is taught to pilots in the bases which would have that a/c (JFK pilots don't ever see it, for example)

DeltaGuy


User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24881 posts, RR: 46
Reply 4, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4799 times:

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 3):
Now the SLC guys are flying it more

Actualy SLC is the one and only Delta MD90 crew base.

MD88s are at ATL, CVG, NYC.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineDeltaGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4737 times:

SLC has been, and is, an 88/90 base....so those pilots are qualled in both.

If you've ever been to the training center and seen the syllabus, you'd see that there is a few additional sections devoted to differences training- the POM even is written for both aircraft.

DeltaGuy


User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4028 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4663 times:

My flight home from SEA-SLC last month was scheduled for an MD-90, but ended up on an MD-88, so the 88s do operate out of SLC on occasion. Besides the obvious differences in engines on the 90s, the 88s have an older flight deck design and layout if I recall correctly.


DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineDeltaGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 4537 times:

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 6):
Besides the obvious differences in engines on the 90s, the 88s have an older flight deck design and layout if I recall correctly.

Right, they've got the nice noisey JT8D's. The flight deck is virtually the same, some of the only variances being the thrust and electrical panels (they had big problems with the electrical system in that jet when it was first produced, if you tried to go from ground to APU power the jet would freak out)

Remember, just because a pilot is based in SLC or wherever doesn't mean he'll be only doing legs out of there, hence why they're 88 qualled as well- they may have a hop that'll take them to CVG, only to pick up an 88 for the next leg- oftentimes you have pilots from other bases flying alot of their trips from another hub, i.e. JFK pilots almost constantly fly ATL trips.

DeltaGuy


User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4512 times:

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 7):
they had big problems with the electrical system in that jet when it was first produced, if you tried to go from ground to APU power the jet would freak out)

With the ex-Reno MD-90's the flight crews would leave the APU running between flights instead having ground power hooked up. Like you said the aircraft would get a bit tempremental when you tried to switch from one to the other.


User currently offlineDeltaGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4471 times:

I think Delta used to have to do the same thing is well.

Too bad AAR90 wasn't active anymore on these threads, he had alot of good experience as well with this airframe.

DeltaGuy


User currently offlineTrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4700 posts, RR: 14
Reply 10, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4270 times:
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DL 2006Q1 total cost per block hour
MD80 $3439
MD90 $2765
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User currently offlineCadet57 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 9085 posts, RR: 31
Reply 11, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4270 times:

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 1):
the airframe is still just an MD-80 which is still used and supported.

Is it possible to upgrade a MD-80 airframe to an MD-90? Ie add the new engines and avionics?



Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 12, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4263 times:

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 11):
Is it possible to upgrade a MD-80 airframe to an MD-90? Ie add the new engines and avionics?

Well no, they're not actually identical. Similar, but different in MANY ways.

NS


User currently offlineDeltaGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4244 times:

Other than the engines, there'd be no reason to. I'd like to see some of the 88's upgraded to the 90's motors for Stage IV (not because I hate jet noise, but more to shut the NIMBY's up  Wink)
It'd be alot of cost and probably not nearly worth it compared to entire fleet replacement in the next several years.

Those numbers posted on the -90 look good....fairley fuel effecient a/c for the money. Those CASM's have to be lower than that now though.

DeltaGuy


User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4028 posts, RR: 11
Reply 14, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4219 times:

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 13):
It'd be alot of cost and probably not nearly worth it compared to entire fleet replacement in the next several years.

Probably more 738s and others that have been discussed on these threads and hashed out etc...



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineSupa7e7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4167 times:

The MD-90 is such a nice, quiet plane to ride on.

Seems like people should appreciate the MD-90 more than they do. Efficient too. Delta probably secretly loves them. Otherwise, why keep the fleet in BK?


User currently offlineDeltaGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4149 times:

Because the aircraft have a low value on the outside market. IIRC American's ex Reno Air birds are still sitting in the desert- American offered them to Delta, which in turn DL offered theirs to AA- unfortunately they're not that popular and it benefited DL more to keep them than get rid of them for dirt cheap.

DeltaGuy


User currently offlineWoodsboy From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 1029 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (7 years 9 months 6 hours ago) and read 3955 times:

With Delta's apparant lack of mainline aircraft after the departure of the 732s and 733s, maybe Delta should look at adding some of the stored (ex AA, etc.) MD90s to the fleet. The low cost of leasing them seems as though it would more than make up for the drawbacks of a small fleet. Something tells me though that Delta's MD90s must be at least somewhat important to their fleet since back as far as 1999 the Delta "annual report" spoke of the MD90s going away in 5-6 years which would have been a couple of years ago by now! As far as I know (and someone can correct me) the entire fleet is still operational with Delta. Once I saw the 90s getting painted in the Deltaflot scheme I figured they werent going away so soon.

I get lucky to fly the 90s almost every time I fly Delta since they are always on the Denver-SLC-SEA corridor and we get to fly the 90 again on Nov. 24 between SLC and SEA!


User currently offlineOyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2727 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (7 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3715 times:

How many MD-90's did Reno have? And how many MD-90 are now stored worldwide?

I guess the problem with the MD-90 is that a company cannot get enough of them to replace another type. SAS for instance could not replace for instance every MD-80 with used MD-90. Therefore it was much cheaper to send the MD-90 out to other operators.



Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlineDeltaGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3588 times:

Quoting Woodsboy (Reply 17):
As far as I know (and someone can correct me) the entire fleet is still operational with Delta.

Yessir, all of them are still going.

Lion Air has been the only taker of these lately I think....I believe all the ex AA ones are still at Roswell, and there may be a few ProAir ones that haven't been scrapped.

Deltaguy


User currently offlineDALMD88 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2534 posts, RR: 14
Reply 20, posted (7 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3578 times:

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 11):
Is it possible to upgrade a MD-80 airframe to an MD-90? Ie add the new engines and avionics?

The engine upgrade wouldn't be too difficult. Would it be cost effective? I don't really know. The stage IV issue in the US is a non issue. It only effects new aircraft.

The avionics on the two aircraft are basiclly the same. The big differance is the Electrical system. MD80's use CSD's mounted on the engines. The MD90 uses VSCF. Don't ask me how they differ, I have never fooled with the VSCF. This system I think was at the heart of APU power freakout others have talked about. The airplane was very picky as to the quality of the ground power. If the power didn't match perfectly it dumped.

Switching from a CSD system to the VSCF system I doubt is realistic. Another difference is lenght. The MD90 is longer by five feet.


User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4028 posts, RR: 11
Reply 21, posted (7 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3516 times:

Quoting Woodsboy (Reply 17):
Something tells me though that Delta's MD90s must be at least somewhat important to their fleet since back as far as 1999 the Delta "annual report" spoke of the MD90s going away in 5-6 years which would have been a couple of years ago by now! As far as I know (and someone can correct me) the entire fleet is still operational with Delta. Once I saw the 90s getting painted in the Deltaflot scheme I figured they werent going away so soon.

I get lucky to fly the 90s almost every time I fly Delta since they are always on the Denver-SLC-SEA corridor and we get to fly the 90 again on Nov. 24 between SLC and SEA!

There are currently 16 MD-90s in the DL fleet, all of them based out of SLC for the most part. As long as DL operates the MD-88, the MD-90 will be important to them since the MD-90 can handle the altitude issues associated with SLC in hot weather.
On the whole, several sources have indicated that the MD-88/90 line-up will be the next fleet phase out as more 738s come on line next year at DL. The reason these remaining MD's are around with DL is that the 732 and 733 had higher operating costs and lease costs that could be re-negotiated and were deemed expendable as I see it. I know many hate to see it, but DL will be a fleet free from any and all MD (Douglas) aircraft by about 2010, and be a strictly Boeing shop.
I think the idea of putting different engines on the MD-88s to make them more compatible with SLC and the higher altitude operations out west would be just as big a waste of money going out the door at DL as when Ronald W. Allen sent all of the old Western DC-10s off to never again land and then turned around and purchased the MD-11 that couldn't do the West Coast to NRT route the way they wanted (too many stops for gas @ANC). The Douglas aircraft heritage at DL should be at the museum at ATL not on all of the the DL occupied concourses there.



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineD950 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 493 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (7 years 8 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3334 times:

[quote=DeltaGuy,reply=19]Lion Air has been the only taker of these lately I think....I believe all the ex AA ones are still at Roswell, and there may be a few ProAir ones that haven't been scrapped.


Actually the only MD90's Lion has, are the ex Reno/AA birds. All other 90's are scattered between, Hello, Eva/Uni, JAS, and some SAS spinoffs, Blue1 and Nordic Leisure.



Resting on your laurels is a synonym for flirting with disaster
User currently offlineBrucek From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 258 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3190 times:

Quoting DALMD88 (Reply 20):

As I recall MD extended the MD-90 fuselage ahead of the wing (in comparison to the MD 8x) to balance out the additional weight of the larger engines. Since a fuselage plug would be hard to fit to an existing aircraft, I would think a basic weight & balance issue here?


User currently offlineMilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1992 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3062 times:

Delta Guy, not to be argumentative, but according to a MD-90 Captain I spoke to, a couple of weeks ago in MSP before he boarded his flight to SLC, the MD-90 guys can fly the MD-88, but not the other way, the MD-88 crews are not automatically MD-90 qualified.

If any additional aircraft are available, I would not be surprised to see Delta pick them up. And as far as Delta ditching all their Mad Dogs in the next 3 plus years, without a merger, I very much doubt it.


25 FlyDreamliner : I don't see the MD90s going away, or the MD-88s either. Here is the thing at DL, they are trying to expand pretty ambitiously. They have removed 777s
26 Sllevin : I don't believe this is a true statement. It certainly wasn't for the Stage III transition. Just because DC-9's or 727's weren't Stage III as built d
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