For many members, this place is their first source for info. It just is not obvious to check elsewhere. There are more than enough loud-minorites that bring outside sources of info into here, i.e. the endless threads about aircraft, carriers and airports. That said, unfortunately, the majority is highly dependent on what the minority chooses to bring in here, hence the apparent ignorance to subjects outside the mainstream popular subjects.
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
QF107 and QF108 are not a connection, Qantas metal all the way to JFK. The stop at LAX is to take on/let off connecting passengers and refuel - all NY passengers have to disembark. On the way back, passengers going to JFK have pass through Immigration and Customs at LAX, then re-clear security and re-board the plane.
Quoting BAStew (Reply 9): Is it true that the F/A's operate a round-trip LAX-JFK-LAX?
Not sure - I only flew this once, and in Business Class on the upper deck we had the same FA JFK-LAX-SYD, although he was replaced for a while on the LAX-SYD leg...I'd presumed it was for a rest. Possible he was just cycling back to Australia, though.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 23154 posts, RR: 23 Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 55334 times:
I've always wondered about the economics of that QF SYD-LAX-JFK service. Since they can't carry local LAX-JFK-LAX domestic traffic, those sectors must be half empty (or worse) on most flights.
I recall a news report several months ago when a QF 744 arriving from LAX scraped a wall or fence with a wingtip while parking at JFK. I think the news item said there were something like 150 passengers on board.
If 250 empty seats or more is typical on the LAX-JFK-LAX sectors, it can't help the profitability of the route. It would seem to make more sense to codeshare with their oneworld partner AA, as they were doing prior to the online operation, rather than flying such long domestic sectors with no local traffic rights and all the extra operating and crew costs.
At least QF can sell local SFO-YVR-SFO traffic when they operate that route, not that they're going to carry many passengers due to the infrequent seasonal service.
P.S. As a matter of trivia, when QF operated to YVR on a more regular basis (but only once a week) with their early 707-138s starting in 1959, it was also an extension of their SYD-NAN-HNL-SFO route. QF also has the distinction of being the first scheduled jet operator at YVR with their 707-138s in 1959, about a year before AC's (then TCA) first DC-8-40s arrived in 1960. By the way, QF's first 707-138 was the first Boeing jet delivered to a non-US airline.
QF also served JFK (then IDL) in 1959 with the 707-138s but the flights continued to LHR then (SYD-NAN-HNL-SFO-JFK-LHR). Combined with their SYD-LHR service via various points in Asia/Europe, that made QF one of the few round-the-world carriers then. They could sell local traffic between the 3 US points and LHR but obviously not on the domestic sectors HNL-SFO-JFK. They started that route with L1049G Super Constellations a year or two earlier.
QF dropped the SFO-JFK-LHR sectors about the time the 742 replaced the 707-320C to SFO in the early 1970s. However around that time they also operated a very unusual route with 707-320Cs SYD-PPT-ACA-MEX-NAS-BDA-LHR. I think it was referred to as the "Fiesta Route". That lasted for a few years.
QF maintained service to YVR for many years using various routings. For a few years in the late '60s/early '70s they replaced the SFO-YVR tag with an unusual SYD-PPT-YVR route without any US stops (twice a week as I recall). Then they dropped tht route and reverted to the SFO-YVR tag but with a 742 (SYD-SFO flights also stopped in HNL in those days and QF didn't serve LAX then.)
In the 1980s sometime, QF again dropped the SFO-YVR tag and started SYD-HNL-YVR 742 service, twice a week if memory correct, in competition with CP who had been operating YVR-SYD via HNL and NAN since 1949 (the origins of AC's current YVR-HNL-SYD service). QF also had 5th freedom rights HNL-YVR, and presumably still does if they were ever to reinstate such service (CP also had 5th freedoms HNL-NAN-SYD, as does AC today HNL-SYD.)
The QF SYD-HNL-YVR route didn't last very long, perhaps 2 or 3 years, and they then suspended online service to YVR until the recent seasonal service, once again as a tag from SFO as it was 50 years ago. I believe they also still codeshare on AS YVR-LAX.
DYK From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 407 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 55124 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 15): P.S. As a matter of trivia, when QF operated to YVR on a more regular basis (but only once a week) with their early 707-138s starting in 1959, it was also an extension of their SYD-NAN-HNL-SFO route. QF also has the distinction of being the first scheduled jet operator at YVR with their 707-138s in 1959, about a year before AC's (then TCA) first DC-8-40s arrived in 1960. By the way, QF's first 707-138 was the first Boeing jet delivered to a non-US airline
Interesting! as a child the big SUnday event was to go to the airport and sit at a viewing are near Russ Baker way just to watch this bird come in.
Gemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5455 posts, RR: 6 Reply 21, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 55054 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 15): If 250 empty seats or more is typical on the LAX-JFK-LAX sectors, it can't help the profitability of the route. It would seem to make more sense to codeshare with their oneworld partner AA, as they were doing prior to the online operation, rather than flying such long domestic sectors with no local traffic rights and all the extra operating and crew costs.
I am told by serveral cabin crew that I know that LAX-JFK is "often" 40-45% load. While that would normally not be a profitable sector, it is an unusual sitution on this sector.
QF really only need to cover "direct, marginal" costs, that is the just the cost of flying LAX-JFK-LAX v the cost of the aircraft sitting on the ground all day at LAX, which is what it would be doing otherwise.
On this basis 40-45% might be breake even or maybe even a little bit better. Add in the indirect marketing and prestige advantages (hard to quantify, true, but real none the less) and QF seems happy to do it. They even increased frequency this year from 3 to 5 per week, so daily next year is a posiability!
It will be a whole new ball game when QF gets an aircraft able to do SYD/MEL-DFW-SYD/MEL. With AA connections into LGA rather than JFK, the LAX-JFK tag may go.
FlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15 Reply 23, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 54670 times:
Quoting Geniusjacky (Reply 14): More than that actually. Flying SIN-EWR is longer, more like 9500nm. But you need a 777-200LR or A340-500.
If you look at a map, you'll see that SIN-JFK just couldn't be longer than SYD-JFK
According to GCM
SIN-EWR = 8,285 nm
SYD-JFK = 8,646 nm
Quoting Laxintl (Reply 22):
Your numbers are right on. The 2005 annual average load factor on the route was 45.8%, varying from a low of 39% one of the northern winter months to 54% during one of the summer months.
If they can make this flight financially rational with 45.8% load factors, you'd wonder if they couldn't do the same likewise extending a flight on from LAX or SFO to DFW or ORD to feed into one of AA's hubs
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
VikingA346 From Sweden, joined Oct 2006, 515 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 54591 times:
Quoting ExFATboy (Reply 11): The stop at LAX is to take on/let off connecting passengers and refuel
FYI - you cannot buy a domestic ticket on QF between LAX and JFK. The passengers that disembark from the aircraft are those pax that are getting off in LA and those that will continue to JFK. There are no pax in LAX that are permitted to continue to JFK unless they came all the way from SYD.
You may already know this, just picked up on the slight detail.
...you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you shall return
25 Vref5: nautical miles (originally derived from the curvature of the Earth, as was the kilometer/kilometre) is 6080 feet per nautical mile. statue miles is 5
26 QantasA380: I can only explain it in terms of the coversion from kilometres, which may not help you much! Some genius mathemetician out there is bound to be able
27 QantasA380: I can only explain it in terms of the coversion from kilometres, which may not help you much! Some genius mathemetician out there is bound to be able
28 Gemuser: True, but would those ports even get 40% loads? Frankly I think it doubtful, as NYC is the second biggest destination/orgin to/from Oz. Any other por
29 Baroque: Que? We are not asking about flights to Barthelona!
30 B6FA4ever: didn't some previous threads regarding the QF LAX-JFK route mention thats there's quite a bit of cargo that they carry on this route...so in all likel
31 N1120A: It is not a connection, it is a direct, stopping flight. MEL and BNE flights do connect to it. Entirely possible. Not particularly. Again, the margin
32 Gemuser: First using AA DFW-LGA is predicted to save about 4 hours, assuming the SYD-DFW flight makes the early bank DFW-LGA, that is arrival about 2:00pm rat
33 TommyBP251b: Hi Everybody! I dont find the discussion. But isn't it like that Qantas only serves JFK due to prestige reasons. Like nearly every international airl
34 N1120A: Again, the LAX-JFK flight not only provides an extension of the QF in flight service, it also gives QF something to do with its aircraft, as well as
35 Boysteve: I'm with you EMBQA! Sorry Lehpron but I am amazed by some questions on here that get asked. You have a computer and internet access so why not go to
36 BAStew: WOW! How long is that duty all together with report time, post flight clear time etc VHX? Is there a service on the flight both ways? The cabin crew
37 StarGoldLHR: Prestige counts for a lot.. How many passengers would Qantas sell from NYC to SYD if it were an AA Code share ? Probably none.. Most Americans would
38 BostonGuy: There's an interesting phenomenon with college-aged people that is becoming widely understood... the generation that grew up using the internet is al
39 Jfk777: Much has been made of the Qantas 744 with only 40% load factor from JFK to LAX, but are they charging only JFK to LAX fares? NO, they are charging JFK
40 Mason747: Actually, the longest flight Qantas ever flew was from LHR to SYD. That was nonstop. But the SYD to JFK with a stop in lax is their current longest.
41 Nickofatlanta: Mason747: QF's flights to LHR are longer than to JFK. SYDLHR= 10,600 miles whilst SYDJFK= 9,940 miles. I believe their current longest nonstop flights
42 Avianca707359B: When was this? With what aircraft? 747SP? Both ways? On a regular basis? I don't recall any airline ever flying LHR-SYD nonstop......
43 BAStew: Hey Avianca, I know not a regulasr flight and not quite LHR - SYD non-stop, but on 26 Mar 2006 British PM Tony Blair chartered a regular British Airwa
44 B777ER: With the return from JFK leaving at 1920 local time, you gotta wonder how many times that flight runs late? Especially in the winter time at JFK. That
45 VHXLR8: It's a 13hr20min duty, with full service both ways. Good way to get up hours I guess, but hard work. There's another one we have which is similar, th
46 YULWinterSkies: Don't they also feed the LAX-JFK leg with people coming from MEL on the QF flight? Or are the times of arrival and departure incompatible with this? D
47 Planetime: Also cargo loads on that route is very good. We should not forget that New York is the second most visited city by OZ's. This flight was increased fr
48 Comorin: Just some details: 1. While 'Statute' was mistyped as 'Statue', nobody should go under the inpression that there is something called 'Statue' Miles. 2
49 TommyBP251b: No it was in 1989. A 747-400 with no passengers on board. Here is the link: http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/247531_recordflight09.html This ar
50 Laxintl: Dont have any statistical data, however I do see the flight arriving late into LAX on a pretty regular basis. Usually nothing too terrible, however a
51 Supa7E7: At typical US fares, a 50% LDF 747 is disastrous LAX-JFK. But at QF international fares, the seamless J class service NYC-SYD probably opens a big co
52 Gemuser: Your costs are probabley in the ball park, but I think they are too low by $20 - $30,000. I think about $US100,000 per flight is closer, including o/
53 777STL: Your math doesn't follow, it appears you're taking each fare and dividing it in half for the half of the roundtrip, that follows. But what about the
54 N1120A: I am sure they do at times, but they are more likely to operate a few short hops then work a transcon. I can't imagine it is that bad, given that the
55 Gemuser: ??? The cost of having the aircraft sit at LAX is $X. The marginal cost of flying LAX-JFK-LAX is $Y. (That is, costs that would not be incurred if th
56 Teamspeedy: i paid $2450 AUD in Y class from syd last Dec/jan for a return trip on QF107/QF108[Edited 2006-10-24 10:36:15]
57 VHXLR8: I think you're forgetting that that is the LOCAL departutre time; for an Australian based cabin crew, that's 2am for them (4am for NZ based crew).
58 Gemuser: The fares quoted were the best available on QF today for a departure on 26/12, return 13/1/07 on Zuji. They are reasonabley repersentative of direct
59 Vref5: True enough on the full tanks thing, but what currency is that $1.50/gallon figure in? Jet A-1 is going for closer to approximately USD $3.90/US gall
60 Jfk777: I'm just trying to show the JFK to LAX leg more then cover its cost. If you through in the total cost all the way to Sydney then its very marginal. JF
61 OzGlobal: Wrong. Being born in Sydney allows me to point out your Sydney-centrism. QF can sell any source city OZ-JFK via LAX. My recent flight to NY was MEL-A
62 OzGlobal: As mentioned, was lucky enough to do it in F and what a pleasant short trip it seemed with a level of service second to none. On the Kangaroo route Q
63 Zeke: Meanwhile in the real world aircraft fly airways.... SYD-JFK 9131.2 nautical miles YSSY KAT H44 SY B450 TUT B577 AHNDO A220 CINNY C1173K SAU C1173N F
64 OzGlobal: A.net does know how to decrypt this gobbledegoop. Can you enlighten us 'outsiders'?
65 Vref5: It's the flight plan route. Start and end of route are the airports. Everything else in between is the name of various navigational waypoints (or the
66 Zeke: This chart (caution 6mb) https://18.104.22.168/products/usfif/v0001/www_charts/Enroute%20Charts/Pacific_Australasia_Antarctica/PAA%201%2028%20SEP%2020
67 FlyDeltaJets: And where will they park it. Terminal 7 is not nor in the process of being 380 ready.
68 777STL: Marginal? LAX-SYD-LAX is three times as far as LAX-JFK-LAX is. With fuel costs alone being what they are, that's hardly marginal. I'd be surprised if
69 Gemuser: But the point is you didn't! Because you compared costs for JFK-LAX to income for JFK-SYD you got a meaning less number. Look at my reply No 52 and 7
70 Lehpron: For most members, they do not have to and as a result, they don't. Why else do questions pop up here that belong in other forums -- those people have
71 ZK-NBT: How did you manage that? MEL-AKL-LAX is 2 class. Did they have a 3 class aircraft on that day and put you in F with J service?
72 OzGlobal: You're right. I've done it twice in the last 12months and was combining thee trips in my mind. The trip I had in mind was actually MEL-LAX-JFK as par
73 NAV20: There is in fact a 'statute mile' in the UK/Commonwealth, anyway; it was derived centuries ago from agricultural measures (principally the length of
74 Eoinnz: Wake up call is at 620am (if your not already awake because your body clock alarm went off earlier) and you don't get back to the hotel until at leas
75 PerthGloryFan: And count me in this too, especially given that it appears that the OP hasn't bothered to rejoin the discussion since starting this thread, not even,
76 Gemuser: This is news and I've read Moore's book. Are you sure about the no traffic rights to SFO thing? Was it perhaps just a delay in approvals? Gemuser
77 Levg79: Most of us actually use the forums to find out more info on anything aviation related as opposed to doing other research. I know for sure that I woul
78 Legacyins: Everything comes off the plane. When it arrives at JFK, the passengers do not need to go through passport/custom formalities.
79 PerthGloryFan: I did use the word "originallY" in my sentence previous to the one you quoted. Moore describes how pax in the first few flights (often Australian war
80 Jacobin777: Speaking of SFO, does anyone know how QF is doing on this route? I plan on flying to Australia soon and I'm debating if I should fly out of SFO or fly
81 VHVXB: Well HNL-SYD is operated by the refurbished B743 and the SFO-SYD is operated B744ER. I would personally go for SFO-SYD
82 ZK-NBT: SYD-HNL will soon change to a 763. Go for SFO, though not all SFO flights are ER's.
83 VHVXB: yeah they will soon operate SYD/MEL-PER exclusively. This whole route will be taken over by JQ in the future Thanks for the correction
84 Jacobin777: Even though I have a zillion miles I can use to upgrade, I'm still going to fly cattle class....is there a big difference between the 743's and 744s
85 OzGlobal: On transpacific, an upgrade is WORTH IT. However, if your points are not with QF, you can redeem a J ticket, but not sure you can upgrade a revenue Y
86 Jacobin777: Oh..interesting..all my miles are with AA...I plan on using my AA miles eventually for upgrades to Europe/Asia(India)/China...that is why I was still
87 VHVXB: There isn't any difference just the schedule times are very different. The products are completely different in business class. The B743 has the old
88 Jacobin777: Ok..thanks..should help in my decisions... I knew about HA and QF (as well as JQ).....but I'm a OneWorld Junkie.. so it might be QF out of HNL..... W
89 VHVXB: hmm you have a valid point here. Like I said before once the A380's come online I think we may see QF Rollout a brand new product whether it includes
90 Par13del: Just to throw another point into the cost of the LAX-JFK-LAX leg, from my days in the accounting dept. of an airline. Airlines used to "prorate" cost
91 Aussieindc: In fact, the schedule had now changed (I had a SKED change notification on my QF108 on Nov 4) advising it's now a 6.40pm departure. I'm not quite sur