Brendows From Norway, joined Apr 2006, 993 posts, RR: 3 Posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 14973 times:
Quote: EVERETT, Wash, Oct. 23, 2006 -- Boeing (NYSE: BA) opened and closed the swing tail for the 747-400 Large Cargo Freighter for the first time Oct. 10. The 747 LCF is currently at the Boeing Everett factory for tests on the swing tail, a major modification to the airplane that allows large pieces to be loaded and unloaded from the back of the airplane. These tests are the first time the LCF swing tail has opened.
Since its first flight, the 747 LCF has accomplished 55 flight-test hours and 270 hours of ground tests. The 747 LCF will transport major components of the Boeing 787 Dreamliner.
To those who are interested:
Boeing released the 777 Freighter Airport Compatibility Brochure for the 777F during the last week, it was written in August (the freighter reached firm configuration in July.) It can be found here: http://www.boeing.com/commercial/airports/777.htm
Beech19 From United States, joined Jul 2006, 936 posts, RR: 4 Reply 1, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 14956 times:
Yeah... they have had the factory doors open on a few days when they were doing the tests. Its rather interesting to watch...
A forklift (basically) comes over with a big attachment connected to it and plugs it into the bottom of the swinging tail. Then drives in an arc to open it. A VERY delicate procedure and the reason they havn't attempted it until now was because they were worried that if it failed and they couldn't get it closed, they wouldn't be able to fly it anywhere. Good thinking...
Wjcandee From United States, joined Jun 2000, 3744 posts, RR: 19 Reply 4, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 14642 times:
Quoting Beech19 (Reply 1): A forklift (basically) comes over with a big attachment connected to it and plugs it into the bottom of the swinging tail. Then drives in an arc to open it. A VERY delicate procedure and the reason they havn't attempted it until now was because they were worried that if it failed and they couldn't get it closed, they wouldn't be able to fly it anywhere.
Is it only me or given the difficulties of getting actual humans to do delicate maneuvers over and over and over and over, time after time after time after time, is it likely that a couple of years from now we'll be reading about how some moron broke the door and production is being slowed down until it can be fixed?
Beech19 From United States, joined Jul 2006, 936 posts, RR: 4 Reply 5, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 14501 times:
Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 4): is it likely that a couple of years from now we'll be reading about how some moron broke the door and production is being slowed down until it can be fixed?
All of us in the Boeing arena have wondered the same idea... lol
WingedMigrator From United States, joined Oct 2005, 1659 posts, RR: 52 Reply 7, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 14386 times:
Quoting Beech19 (Reply 5): All of us in the Boeing arena have wondered the same idea... lol
Let's see...
3 Large Cargo Freighters
7 787 airframes per month
1 flight Japan - Everett, carrying wings (or is it one flight for each wing?)
1 flight Japan - Charleston, carrying fuselage barrels
1 flight Wichita - Everett, carrying the forward fuselage
1 flight Italy - Charleston, carrying fuselage barrels
1 flight Italy - Everett, carrying the horizontal stabilizer
2 flights Charleston - Everett, carrying mid and rear fuselage
That's up to 14 cycles of the tail door per 787 built (one when loading, one when unloading)... although it may be possible to open the door only once, for example, to unload Italian fuselage barrels in Charleston and then load completed fuselage sections bound for Everett. Let's be charitable and give the tail door just 10 cycles per 787 airframe.
That's roughly 23 openings and closings per month, per Large Cargo Freighter. That's pretty much once every business day, so that door had better be reliable
The fine graphic below is courtesy of the Seattle Times.
LimaNiner From United States, joined Oct 2006, 221 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 14284 times:
Quoting Beech19 (Reply 1): A forklift (basically) comes over with a big attachment connected to it and plugs it into the bottom of the swinging tail. Then drives in an arc to open it. A VERY delicate procedure
Quoting Daedaeg (Reply 3): There were a quite a lot of proud engineers present when they first opened her up.
I'm sure... but have any of them signed up to be on the next flight of the LCF?
Ikramerica From United States, joined May 2005, 18393 posts, RR: 59 Reply 9, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 14193 times:
I'm sure that a better solution could be found than having to drive in a perfect arc.
For example, if the plane will always be loaded and unloaded in the same place, then you can create a fixed track on the ground for a railed vehicle to be moved in a perfect arc every time. Tow the plane into position, extend the attachment arm, pull the rail vehicle, voila. Get any movie crew in there and they'll set you up. At teamster rates, of course...
There are six locations in the world where the LCF will load and unload parts, from what I can tell. That means six staging areas. Not a lot to deal with.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
JetMech From Australia, joined Mar 2006, 2179 posts, RR: 53 Reply 11, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 13958 times:
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 9): I'm sure that a better solution could be found than having to drive in a perfect arc.
I would presume that the attachment between the fork lift and 747 LCF tail-door has some sort of restricted freedom in the lateral plane. I think it would be a big ask on the fork-lift operator to drive in a manner such that the attachment point prescribe an exact constant radius arc.
I would also hazard a guess that there is some sort of active vertical adjustment of the attachment point. A fixed arc rail system would also require the 747 LCF to be precisely parked on a given spot before the swing tail could be opened.
The universe revolves around engineers as we choose the co-ordinate system!
Nudelhirsch From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 1437 posts, RR: 27 Reply 12, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 13863 times:
The forklift could be programmed with the procedure. Put them into place properly, doublecheck, and then push a button and it drives the ideal curve...
That should not double the price of the 87. A human error on the LCF would though...
KC135TopBoom From United States, joined Jan 2005, 7453 posts, RR: 50 Reply 15, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 13781 times:
Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 13): I bet the fastners that hold this door close, move home with a very satifying "thunk"
I would hope so.......
Do we know how long it takes to secure the B-747LCF, unlock, and open the door? What about closing it? I assume this will always be done inside a hanger, so wind catching the door is not a factor (wind consideration was a major factor with opening the nose door of the C-97/B-377 Super Guppy).
Boeing777/747 From Belgium, joined Dec 2001, 643 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 13741 times:
Maybe, maybe.... this big freighter could also become a success as a passenger airliner as competitor of the A380? That would be very, very sneaky and very smart of Boeing!
Leelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 17, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 13635 times:
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 15): I assume this will always be done inside a hanger, so wind catching the door is not a factor (wind consideration was a major factor with opening the nose door of the C-97/B-377 Super Guppy).
Not according to this graphic:
Is there some kind special onboard balast system to balance the aircraft when it's empty and the swing tail is open?
Revelation From United States, joined Feb 2005, 3937 posts, RR: 4 Reply 18, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 13568 times:
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 9): For example, if the plane will always be loaded and unloaded in the same place, then you can create a fixed track on the ground for a railed vehicle to be moved in a perfect arc every time.
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 9): There are six locations in the world where the LCF will load and unload parts, from what I can tell. That means six staging areas. Not a lot to deal with.
One thing you are not considering is wind loading. Once that tail is opened, it acts like one big mofo sail, and the loads on that hinge must be quite considerable.
I saw a documentary about large transports which showed the Super Guppy loading and unloading, and their biggest concern was wind strength and direction.
They very carefully positioned it with respect to the wind, and they had very definite wind limits to observe. If the wind was too strong, they just would not open the nose.
I'm sure there are some wind limits to the LCF, and it'd be interesting to know what they are.
Of course, if the plan is to always open it in a hangar, the issue is moot, but they'd need 6 extremely large hangars, large enough to hold the LCF with its tail swung open and at least a part of its cargo ramp in place.
On the other hand, I imagine the plan is to load it outdoors, so your solution would also have to have six very large turntables, large enough to rotate the LCF and the fixed rail into the proper wind orientation.
I'm sure the wind issue has been considered, but I just haven't heard how they will deal with it. Sheltering the plane would be very expensive, but leaving it exposed to wind and other weather effects could cause a lot of delays. I imagine one period of heavy winds at one of the six locations could put a definite kink in the production schedule.
Brendows From Norway, joined Apr 2006, 993 posts, RR: 3 Reply 19, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 13568 times:
Quoting Boeing777/747 (Reply 16): Maybe, maybe.... this big freighter could also become a success as a passenger airliner as competitor of the A380? That would be very, very sneaky and very smart of Boeing!
The main cargo hold is not pressurized, so that would not be a very good idea from a passenger point of view The airframe would have to be heavily reinforced to handle the higher internal pressure, thus increasing the weight of the aircraft and reducing the maximum range. There is no way that it could be competitive against the A380 in that way.
StealthZ From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 4075 posts, RR: 52 Reply 20, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 13568 times:
Quoting AirSpare (Reply 14): There must be plans for robotic system in the future (?).
Why?
What is it that always requires a complex solution for a simple process?
The hinges are likely almost strong enough to support the tail and the forklift and attachment are just like a moving tailstand. A little lateral and vertical freedom in the custom attachment on the forklift should be fine and any half decent operator could handle the driving chores with out much problem. Probably don't even need that special of a forklift.. find a suitable one at any materials handling dealer in Japan, Italy or where ever
Of course old planes are safe, how do you think they got to be old?
StealthZ From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 4075 posts, RR: 52 Reply 23, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 12290 times:
Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 22): Also, what happens if one of these unique birds goes down due to an mx problem? Is there a backup airframe??
I think there are going to be 4 of these LCF, looking at the build schedule from my uninformed and remote perspective that is likely catering for MX issues.
Given the time it took to build this one, I think if numbers of airframes looked like holding up production, more would be built. I would be surprised if the folks at Boeng had not already identified the airframes they would want for additional conversions.
Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 22): I dont get the whole forklift thing...please elaborate if possible.
It appears to me that as this plane was going to operate at a very limited number of locations it was easier to build an attachment for a forklift (which is likely already available at those sites) to provide the swing mechanism than it would be to design complex heavy and time consuming(from a design & engineering perspective) swing mechanisms.
[Edited 2006-10-24 15:20:36]
Of course old planes are safe, how do you think they got to be old?
JBirdAV8r From United States, joined Jun 2001, 2968 posts, RR: 21 Reply 25, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 11572 times:
Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 24): Does this mean the aircraft will not cruise at normal altitudes for 747F's?
I don't know if there are any cruise altitude restrictions, but the forward area (crew compartment) is pressurized. A special bulkhead was built for this purpose.
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
26 787engineer: AFAIK it takes about 45 minutes to open or close the tail, but that may because they're being extra careful with the first few times they do it. Pers
27 F9Animal: I love the design, but would hate to be the test pilot flying this bird after the ground tail tests are complete. I guess I would worry about the tail
28 N328KF: Why? Airbus, NASA, et. al. flew swing-tale Aero Spacelines aircraft for ages with no problem.
29 CM767: Doe anyone know how they redirected the controls that should run to the tail?
30 AirSpare: It does'nt have to be complex or expensive, only an automated process that could secure the section while it was open. I never even implied complexit
31 AirbusA346: What are they going to put in the kower cargo holds and where do the controls go to get to the tail. Tom.
32 Jamesbuk: Ha yeh instead of letting people of though the doors they could make the back tip to the floor and let everyone fall out! Extra quick turn around. Rg
33 AirRyan: Still seems like a highly improbable solution to the very vitality of the entire 787 program - there had to have been a better cost-alternative soluti
34 DEVILFISH: From the size of the section, it is doubtful that such is the case, hence the necessity of the moving support, as indicated in the following reply...
35 SkyTaxi: The Large Cargo Freighter will bring to Everett components such as the 787's fuselage sections and wings for final assembly. Boeing officials believe
36 Ikramerica: Not really. Just "almost" perfect. Because the same active attachment point could be used. The whole operation has to be precise anyway. But the thin
37 StealthZ: You are right it doesn't have to be complex but any bespoke design will add cost and complexity, the adaptor on a large forklift seems to work fine a
38 Cf6ppe: No one seems to have mentioned the swing tail CL-44... What type of restrictions did the CL-44 have with swinging the tail open/closed and during load
39 N600RR: Ummm...I'm no engineer, but how the heck did they build it to open, if it was never opened before? My guess: the tail control surface actuators and p
40 727forever: I don't see why a complex solution is needed either. I do see that those who mentioned it above are the same folks who like to human bash on here. By
41 LimaNiner: Yeah -- the same reason why I avoid flip phones and cars with pop-up headlights. Simple is better, and if you can avoid mechanical pieces, it's simpl
42 N600RR: Again, I'm no engineer...but couldn't a modified front landing gear be installed in the tail with the correct turning arc fixed to match the arc of t
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