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New Light Rail Line Proposed To LAX  
User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2231 posts, RR: 8
Posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4134 times:

Yesterday's LA Times says a new light rail line is being planned that would go directly into LAX, via Crenshaw Boulevard and Florence Avenue.

The new line would replace long-stalled plans to extend the Green Line from Interstate 105 south of the airport into LAX. It would be more likely to win FAA approval than the Green Line extension, according to the article, because it would not pass through any runway clear zones; the Green Line extension was planned to pass just east of the threshholds to 25L and 25R. In addition to taking passengers to LAX, it would also replace busses that carry local passengers along Crenshaw Avenue.

It would cost $1 billion and "could" be finished by 2015. The new line is competing for funds with a proposed subway under Wilshire Boulevard to Santa Monica.


Seaholm Maples are #1!
19 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineCXB744 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 218 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4104 times:

It's amazing what happens when the mayor goes to Asia and sees how public transit is suppose to work.


What is it? It's A 747-400, but that's not important right now.
User currently offlineCa2ohHP From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 955 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4058 times:

Quoting CXB744 (Reply 1):
It's amazing what happens when the mayor goes to Asia and sees how public transit is suppose to work.

Or Europe for that matter. I could not imagine arriving LAX for the first time ever. It is the most confusing and run down airport. Forget about mass transit at LAX, you need a car or a taxi.

I would really love to see this happen, however, if memory serves correct, this was tried in the past with the train that runs up from Long Beach, and I believe a number of the cities around LAX were able to block the construction of that train directly into the LAX facility.


User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25532 posts, RR: 50
Reply 3, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4017 times:

Here is the article. (free registration required)
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la...me-greenline23oct23,1,347350.story

A key to having this ever become reality is the passage of Bond Measure 1B during the November elections.
The bond measure would open up additional state transportation funds which could go to build the proposed line. Otherwise the MTA-Metropolitan Transportation Authority has very little discretionary funding available having multiple other projects in development.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineAirWillie6475 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 2448 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4007 times:

http://www.laxmasterplan.org/video/LAXMPclipVideo.html

Video of what they are trying to do at LAX. It looks like a space station. Looking at the current lax I don't know how they're going to do it.


User currently offlineCXB744 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 218 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3954 times:

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 4):
Video of what they are trying to do at LAX. It looks like a space station. Looking at the current lax I don't know how they're going to do it.

That video is soooo out of date it's funny.  laughing 

Quoting Ca2ohHP (Reply 2):
Or Europe for that matter. I could not imagine arriving LAX for the first time ever. It is the most confusing and run down airport. Forget about mass transit at LAX, you need a car or a taxi.

I would really love to see this happen, however, if memory serves correct, this was tried in the past with the train that runs up from Long Beach, and I believe a number of the cities around LAX were able to block the construction of that train directly into the LAX facility.

LA is designed around the car. LAX is designed around the car. It doesn't look run down everywhere. It's terminal specific, Terminal 1 and TBIT (everywhere except the departures pre-sercurity area) for example. What the light rail will do is cut the number of cars going into LAX, maybe. Now if they could only build a consolidated rental car facility . . .  goodvibes 



What is it? It's A 747-400, but that's not important right now.
User currently offlineMatt D From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9502 posts, RR: 47
Reply 6, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3949 times:

1. It will never happen.

2. We don't need yet ANOTHER bond issue (where did all that money from the last three dozen bonds we passed go?).

3. The LAMTA is arguably the most inept and short sighted Government agency in the state. They already botched the green, gold, and orange LRT lines. Big time. What makes us think that THIS project will be handled correctly? RED FLAG: There are already EXISTING railroad tracks that run right by LAX. Theoretically they could be upgraded and turned over to Metrolink (the SoCal Commuter Rail system) in a matter of MONTHS. Not YEARS (2015?). So you know what that tells me? This proposal is just another pork project that will line a lot of pockets based on "feasibility" studies and "environmental impact reports" that will cost the taxpayers tens of millions of dollars before a single train is ran. If ever.

[Edited 2006-10-24 20:43:38]

User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25532 posts, RR: 50
Reply 7, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3938 times:

Quoting Ca2ohHP (Reply 2):
I would really love to see this happen, however, if memory serves correct, this was tried in the past with the train that runs up from Long Beach, and I believe a number of the cities around LAX were able to block the construction of that train directly into the LAX facility.

The Green Line which runs to LAX has been up an running since 1995.

The line ends right outside LAX where one boards a short shuttle bus as a result of the MTA and then Airport Authorities could never decide on how to connect the line to the airport. Nothing to do with issues from adjacent cities.

Now as part of the airports Master Plan a central transportation center would be developed where the bus lines and the metro would converge and be connected to a people mover system that would enter the central terminal area.
Big version: Width: 589 Height: 589 File size: 30kb



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21534 posts, RR: 59
Reply 8, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3889 times:

Quoting WA707atMSP (Thread starter):
Yesterday's LA Times says a new light rail line is being planned that would go directly into LAX, via Crenshaw Boulevard and Florence Avenue.

Running above the ground rail with local stops through the some of the most dangerous streets in America is not going to attract many flyers.

LAX needs a an EXPRESS rail link to BeverlyHills(south)-WestHollywood-Hollywood-UniversalCity-Burbank(center), one to USC/ConventionCenter/Downtown-Glendale(south)-Pasadena-Ontario/ONT, one to Santa Monica/Brentwood-Westwood/UCLA-ShermanOaks/Encino-VanNuys(Airport)-Burbank/BUR, one to LongBeach/LGB-LongBeach(center)-SantaAna-Irvine/SNA, and one non-stop to Anaheim/Disney-Knotts and then points beyond. All lines should come to a central LAX station, connected via frequent monorail to LAX. (And this lays the groundwork for a local loop train Westwood/ShermanOaks/NorthHollywood/Hollywood/BeverlyHills/Westwood which would do more to cut down traffic than anything in LA County.) If you want to layer local light rail on top of that, fine.

All of this costs money and involves displacing people, but it's the only thing that would do anything to help. And unfortunately, it would take 20 years the way California does things. And LA County is still obsessed with the outdated concept of Union Station in Downtown as being the hub. Outdated thinking, living in the past, lamenting the future.

LA has a problem of a completely decentralized economy with people living and working everywhere. There are 6-10 major business centers. But there are centralized functions of any city, and it's only a matter of how and why to connect them. For LA, it's LAX, the convention centers, the movie studios, the attractions, and those 6-10 business centers. Connect them all to LAX, you cut down on a lot of traffic. Connect the various airports to LAX, you do a service.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineMatt D From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9502 posts, RR: 47
Reply 9, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3870 times:

IKRAmerica:

You got it HALF right. Yes, LA is wildly fragmented, yes LA is overly bloated with bureaucracy. Yes, it is an auto-centered region.

But if you think that the key to the fix involves connecting dots and drawing lines on a map, you are sorely mistaken.

Frankly, I don't think that ANYTHING can fix LA's traffic woes. Rampant, out of control short sighted development that reached further and further out was 50 years in the making and continues with no letup in sight. The time remaining before LA, Phoenix, San Diego, Las Vegas, and The Bay Area all joining up into one huge megaplex is, at current rates, probably less than two decades away. And like you said, it will take at least 20 years (and untold amounts of displacement....a problem in and of itself) to fix.

Unfortunately, even the best laid and intended plans won't do anything in the long run unless a 100%, no exceptions moratorium on new construction within a 100 mile radius of Downtown is enacted.

By the time a feasible alternative infrastructure is put into place, the existing problem will have already compounded itself.

The solution lies not in "smarter" public transit or in perpetually widening the freeways to 6, 8, and 20 lanes. The solution lies in slamming the door shut for new people coming in. And ideally, kicking a few million of the ones already here out.

[Edited 2006-10-24 21:27:28]

User currently offlineCa2ohHP From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 955 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3856 times:

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 7):
The Green Line which runs to LAX has been up an running since 1995.

The line ends right outside LAX where one boards a short shuttle bus as a result of the MTA and then Airport Authorities could never decide on how to connect the line to the airport. Nothing to do with issues from adjacent cities.

My bad then. Sorry El Segundo. The last thing LAX needed was additional road traffic around the airport, those buses just crowd it up even more. The entire Los Angeles basin needs a common light rail solution, and a start would be connecting the airports directly to the lines. But as stated above, it will never happen.


User currently offlineCa2ohHP From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 955 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3843 times:

Quoting Matt D (Reply 9):
The solution lies in slamming the door shut for new people coming in. And ideally, kicking a few million of the ones already here out.

Yeah goodluck doing that.


User currently offlineMatt D From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9502 posts, RR: 47
Reply 12, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3817 times:

I realize that the odds of that happening are extremely remote at best.

So that said....show me a VIABLE alternative solution.

There isn't one.


User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2231 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3805 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):
Quoting WA707atMSP (Thread starter):
Yesterday's LA Times says a new light rail line is being planned that would go directly into LAX, via Crenshaw Boulevard and Florence Avenue.

Running above the ground rail with local stops through the some of the most dangerous streets in America is not going to attract many flyers.

The light rail lines which go from ORD and MDW into downtown Chicago pass through neighborhoods just as bad as the neighborhoods this line would go through, but they still attract decent numbers of flyers. It's amazing what flyers will endure to avoid a $35.00 cab ride from ORD into downtown, and being stuck in rush hour traffic on the Dan Ryan Expressway!



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25532 posts, RR: 50
Reply 14, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3777 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):
Running above the ground rail with local stops through the some of the most dangerous streets in America is not going to attract many flyers.

It not just flyers. Its employees.

Look at the Fly-Away bus line from Union Station. Within 4 months the service exceeded its projected annual ridership! It turns out the line has been wildly popular with airport workers of which there are over 40,000.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineEWRandMDW From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 416 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3768 times:

WA707atMSP wrote: "The light rail lines which go from ORD and MDW into downtown Chicago pass through neighborhoods just as bad as the neighborhoods this line would go through, but they still attract decent numbers of flyers. It's amazing what flyers will endure to avoid a $35.00 cab ride from ORD into downtown, and being stuck in rush hour traffic on the Dan Ryan Expressway!"


The rail lines to MDW and ORD are classified as HEAVY rail, a.k.a. subway lines using NYC palaver. The ORD line (Blue) runs down the median of the KENNEDY Expy (I-90) and the line to MDW (Orange) runs through some industrial areas, but in general serves pretty decent neighborhoods. I've ridden that line many times, including late at night with no problems. The Blue line from ORD to downtown (24/7/365 operations) is also not that bad -- it's when it heads west from the loop that it can be a bit dicey. FYI the Chicago Transit Authority is in the process of building a new undergraound station in the Loop that will introduce dedicated EXPRESS service to both MDW and ORD in addition to the current service which is all stops.


User currently onlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26536 posts, RR: 75
Reply 16, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3633 times:

Quoting CXB744 (Reply 1):

It's amazing what happens when the mayor goes to Asia and sees how public transit is suppose to work.

Mayor Villaraigosa has been a major proponant of public transport for a long time. He has pushed harder than anyone to lift the federal ban on L.A. heavy rail subway construction, particularly for the Wilshire Line, as well as to lift the idiotic ban on using the rail sales tax for building rail that NIMBY moron Zev Yaroslavsky got passed several years ago. As it is, there are billions lying around in that fund that the LACMTA can't touch.

Quoting Ca2ohHP (Reply 2):
I believe a number of the cities around LAX were able to block the construction of that train directly into the LAX facility.

Of all the things that cities around LAX have done to block progress, this isn't one of them. One of the biggest problems has been the taxi and private car lobby, who kept the Green Line from being built into LAX in the first place as designed.

Quoting Matt D (Reply 6):
2. We don't need yet ANOTHER bond issue (where did all that money from the last three dozen bonds we passed go?).

In case you haven't noticed, Los Angeles has completely modernized its fleet and Metrolink has steadily increased service. Further, the half cent RTD tax that paid for the Blue Line has been held up for years because of the aforementioned County Supervisor.

Quoting Matt D (Reply 6):
3. The LAMTA is arguably the most inept and short sighted Government agency in the state.

You couldn't be more wrong. The LACMTA has done more with less than any other public transport agency in this country, leading to one of the most intensively used public transport systems in the world. The fact that they have been robbed of funding at every turn and been kept from pushing forward their plans by Washington doesn't change that.

Quoting Matt D (Reply 6):
There are already EXISTING railroad tracks that run right by LAX.

The Harbor Subdivision is a single track spur off the mainline that was once the link for the Port of Los Angeles to the National Rail Network. The reason LACMTA replaced it with the Alameda Corridor is because it was incredibly unsafe as a line constantly running trains because it has something like 40 at grade crossings along its route, particularly along Slauson Ave. It would have to be completely reengineered and resignaled and would not be able to be double tracked without serious engineering and likely a significant number of takings. It is a great idea in theory, but there is no way it would be ready in months like you claim

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 7):
The line ends right outside LAX where one boards a short shuttle bus as a result of the MTA and then Airport Authorities could never decide on how to connect the line to the airport.

Aviation Blvd. station isn't exactly right outside where you need to be. The shuttle takes about 15 minutes

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):
Running above the ground rail with local stops through the some of the most dangerous streets in America is not going to attract many flyers.

The Blue Line has been very successful despite running right through South Central, perhaps partially because of it. The areas around Crenshaw have significantly improved over the years and that whole area has seen significant investment and redevelopment.

Quoting Matt D (Reply 9):
And ideally, kicking a few million of the ones already here out.

Yeah, perhaps we can send people back to Fresno and Clovis

Quoting Matt D (Reply 9):
The solution lies in slamming the door shut for new people coming in.

Yeah sure, lets just make it like the Soviet Union and make people apply to live places. A hell of a free country there  sarcastic 



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineCa2ohHP From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 955 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3602 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 16):
Quoting Ca2ohHP (Reply 2):
I believe a number of the cities around LAX were able to block the construction of that train directly into the LAX facility.

Of all the things that cities around LAX have done to block progress, this isn't one of them. One of the biggest problems has been the taxi and private car lobby, who kept the Green Line from being built into LAX in the first place as designed.

Yeah Laxintl corrected me. I had it confused with the airport exansion project. Keeping up with socal politics is next to impossible.


User currently offlineMatt D From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9502 posts, RR: 47
Reply 18, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3486 times:

In case you haven't noticed, Los Angeles has completely modernized its fleet and Metrolink has steadily increased service. Further, the half cent RTD tax that paid for the Blue Line has been held up for years because of the aforementioned County Supervisor.

I'll give you that.

The LACMTA has done more with less than any other public transport agency in this country, leading to one of the most intensively used public transport systems in the world. The fact that they have been robbed of funding at every turn and been kept from pushing forward their plans by Washington doesn't change that.

INTENSELY used? When compared to who? Omaha Transit? With the possible exceptions of maybe a few lines in and around such bastions of economic prosperity such as East LA and Paramount, most of the buses I see are less than half full.

The Harbor Subdivision is a single track spur off the mainline that was once the link for the Port of Los Angeles to the National Rail Network. The reason LACMTA replaced it with the Alameda Corridor is because it was incredibly unsafe as a line constantly running trains because it has something like 40 at grade crossings along its route, particularly along Slauson Ave. It would have to be completely reengineered and resignaled and would not be able to be double tracked without serious engineering and likely a significant number of takings. It is a great idea in theory, but there is no way it would be ready in months like you claim

Ok maybe the idea wasn't without its issues. But it still is a good idea. Metrolink could still have the line up to acceptable safety standards in far less time than it would take to build an LRT. And let's be honest. If MTA is aiming for 2015, you know damn well that there is no hope before 2020.

Just take a look at the disaster that is the Gold Line. It runs along the route of the former Santa Fe Pasadena Subdivision. The last "real" trains ran along that line in January 1994. All of the track was ripped up a short time later. It took NINE years to get the line rebuilt as LRT. And even then, it only runs for 13 miles or so. When the Santa Fe abandoned that line, Metrolink approached the LAMTA and offered to take over ops of that line with conventional commuter rail. They could have been running the very next day. Literally. The Pasadena Sub was a main line, complete with crossings, relatively new rail, and signal systems. Indeed, it was rated at up to 79mph (25-30 through Highland Park and South Pas). So it was nowhere near the dilapidated mess the Harbor Sub is. And the best part is that it was completely built all the way out to San Bernardino. So a commutter living in any of the Foothill communities from Arcadia to San Dimas to Claremont would've had access to no-transfer rail service between LAUPT and San Bernardino....and all of the connections available at both ends.

And what happened?

They said "NO". We want LIGHT RAIL. And guess what happened: MTA let nearly a decade go by and let all of the residents living along the ROW get used to all that silence. Train noise was never much of an issue when Amtrak and Santa Fe used to run their trains through there. Had Metrolink taken over, no one would've said a word. But the line was "dead". And suddenly when faced with the loss of that silence, those cities dragged the MTA through years of litigation hell-which is still going on today. The result? A line that was BUILT for 55+mph ops has to crawl to 15 mph when passing through most of South Pas, which is almost half the length of the line. So now it takes almost an hour (with all the stops) to travel 13 miles. And the line goes nowhere: it ends in the middle of the 210 freeway. No wonder it has such abysmal ridership figures.


And don't EVEN get me started on that on the cheap/"let's see how many corners we can cut" with that BRT Orange Line "experiment" that's put lots and lots of egg on the face of the MTA.

Yeah sure, lets just make it like the Soviet Union and make people apply to live places. A hell of a free country there

All kidding aside, that's probably the ONLY idea that would actually work. I noticed you had nothing to say in response to MY response to IkrAmerica.

[Edited 2006-10-25 04:24:17]

User currently onlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26536 posts, RR: 75
Reply 19, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3247 times:

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 13):
The light rail lines which go from ORD and MDW into downtown Chicago

Those are heavy rail lines.

Quoting Matt D (Reply 18):
INTENSELY used? When compared to who? Omaha Transit? With the possible exceptions of maybe a few lines in and around such bastions of economic prosperity such as East LA and Paramount, most of the buses I see are less than half full.

Untrue. While it may seem that the service is underused, it is actually one of the busiest systems that exist. The Metro Rapid system has been a massive success that it has spread to the Big Blue, particularly the line that runs down the corridor that the Wilshire subway line is eventually supposed to do.

Quoting Matt D (Reply 18):
Ok maybe the idea wasn't without its issues. But it still is a good idea. Metrolink could still have the line up to acceptable safety standards in far less time than it would take to build an LRT.

I agree that the best overall transit strategy at LAX has a major place for the Harbor sub, though the costs of making that line safe and fast enough for the kind of service it warrants would likely better be spent on an electric or DMU commuter line (and I don't necessarily mean LRT). Further, the new grading that needs to be done, particularly along Slauson, means that money may well be spend double tracking the whole thing. If you think about it, it took them 8 years to do the Blue Line along the old Pacific Electric ROW. If they had access to those kinds of funds again and had the better Harbor Sub as their base, the LAX-Union line could well get done faster.

Quoting Matt D (Reply 18):
They said "NO". We want LIGHT RAIL. And guess what happened: MTA let nearly a decade go by and let all of the residents living along the ROW get used to all that silence. Train noise was never much of an issue when Amtrak and Santa Fe used to run their trains through there. Had Metrolink taken over, no one would've said a word. But the line was "dead". And suddenly when faced with the loss of that silence, those cities dragged the MTA through years of litigation hell-which is still going on today. The result? A line that was BUILT for 55+mph ops has to crawl to 15 mph when passing through most of South Pas, which is almost half the length of the line. So now it takes almost an hour (with all the stops) to travel 13 miles. And the line goes nowhere: it ends in the middle of the 210 freeway. No wonder it has such abysmal ridership figures.

The thing about the Gold Line is that LACMTA wanted to offer a far greater frequency than Metrolink could have ever offered. Further, they wanted to double track the line and electrify it to make it more environmentally friendly which, given the state of the environment in Southern California, is a good thing. Additionally, by having Metro own the line (they own the ROW all the way to Claremont Village), it is the County, not the JPA, making decisions, which means less bureaucracy

Quoting Matt D (Reply 18):
All kidding aside, that's probably the ONLY idea that would actually work. I noticed you had nothing to say in response to MY response to IkrAmerica.

Again, that isn't a kidding matter.

Quoting Matt D (Reply 9):
By the time a feasible alternative infrastructure is put into place, the existing problem will have already compounded itself.

The problem is that we keep thinking of things along the lines of an alternative infrastructure. What we should be doing is thinking along the lines of Portland, where they have committed to building transport (MAX) prior to the development of new subdivisions. By doing that, people have a ready made solution to their transport conundrums.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
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