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AF 95 MIA-CDG With Gear Down!  
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4261 posts, RR: 6
Posted (7 years 6 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 16123 times:

I took a break a few minutes ago from staring at the computer here in Miami Beach to see AF 95 headed out to sea with it's nose landing gear down!

Don't know if the mains were down as well.

Since we're about 4 minutes / 12 miles from MIA, doesn't this seem a bit unusual?

I've never seen this before out here!

34 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 5911 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (7 years 6 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 16149 times:

From an armchair captain:
They could have been left out to cool of, if there has been a good amount of braking while taxiing from the gate to the runway.


User currently offlineSpeedbird128 From Pitcairn Islands, joined Oct 2003, 1648 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (7 years 6 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 16115 times:

Aircraft often leave the gear down on departure for cooling purposes. If the brakes were used a lot during the ground manouevring, then they may have become hot....


A306, A313, A319, A320, A321, A332, A343, A345, A346 A388, AC90, B06, B722, B732, B733, B735, B738, B744, B762, B772, B7
User currently offlineSpacepope From Vatican City, joined Dec 1999, 2866 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (7 years 6 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 15925 times:

The initial post makes it sould like it only had the nose gear down, but not the main gear. In that case, sounds a little odd. I'd like a few more details/clarification.


The last of the famous international playboys
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 6 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 15867 times:

Assuming all of them weren't down for cooling purposes as others of mentioned, they may have needed to re-cycle the gear for some reason.

In any event, if there had been a major problem where the gear would not retract, they'd have come back to MIA (or maybe gone to IAD or JFK) since you're not going to make it to CDG with gear hanging out. If they're continuing MIA-CDG, you can rest assured that whatever they needed to work out got worked out...

[Edit]
..and off to Paris they are:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/AFR95

[Edited 2006-10-26 01:06:44]

User currently offlineTWAL1011727 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 619 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 6 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 15670 times:

1) I seriously doubt a B747-400 can purposely leave a specific gear down (I.E. nose gear only etc.)

2) Unless the B747-400 is different than other past Boeings...they may not have nose gear brakes installed to need cooling off.

3) If the gear was stuck down after re-cycling it, they would either have to dump alot (and I mean ALOT) of fuel for a return to MIA or divert to another airport (airports already suggested.)

The flight tracker posted doesn't show a divert and the plane is past BDA, so it looks like they successfully mediated the problem and are pressing on to CDG.

Good luck AF

KD


User currently offlineLegacy135 From Switzerland, joined May 2005, 1052 posts, RR: 27
Reply 6, posted (7 years 6 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 15606 times:

I personally never flew a 747, but had on a C550 s/II as also on a IAI1125 one of the main gears not retracted after the cycle was completed. In both cases we lowered the gear again, retracted again and the problem was already solved.

I personally disagree with the theory of having them down for cooling:

1. This aircraft was heavy on take off, going for CDG. So take off performance is only granted by keeping to the procedures and this means "positive rate - gear up", otherwise the calculated profile can never ever be met.

2. If the brakes should be that hot by the time, the plane reaches the runway, then fire the crew immediately. This bird was completely mishandled. A take off under such circumstances wouldn't be possible, as hot brakes don't give the necessary performance at all. To be able to take off, brakes need to be fully functional, otherwise it's an unsafe procedure and forbidden. The only thing to do would be, to delay the take off until the brakes are cooled down to an acceptable temperature.

So it most probably was just a gear cycle, that didn't terminate properly, which was then corrected by the crew.


Cheers
Legacy135 Wink


User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 6 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 15555 times:

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 6):
I personally never flew a 747,


Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 6):
then fire the crew immediately.



Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 6):
This bird was completely mishandled.

If you're really a corporate flight manager as your profile indicates, I find it odd that you'd make such sweeping statements, since, by your own admission, you've never flown the type aircraft involved. Neither have I, but that's besides the point, which is that there are things that are fully permissible and legal based upon the AFMs, MELs, QRHs and other documents of a particular aircraft type that can easily be different from your own.

There was just a thread in Tech Ops about the practice:
http://www.airliners.net/discussions/tech_ops/read.main/167602/

[Edited 2006-10-26 03:02:41]

User currently offlineDelawareUSA From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 104 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 6 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 15482 times:

Could have blown an tire late in take off run, and left gear down to cool tire. It is safer to cool tire, then fly on to destination to burn off fuel then to return for a heavy landing.

User currently offlineTokyoNarita From Palau, joined Aug 2003, 570 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 6 months 1 day ago) and read 15354 times:

Just as a reference, there is an item on B757 landing gear system that may be inoperative if the flight kept the landing gear down for certain amount of time after departure to allow cooling. It is something out of the ordinary but certainly not an emergency. Same goes for the CRJ200. On certain occasions, the takeoff has to be conducted with landing gear down for the first 10 minutes due to an inoperative item in its landing gear system, also to allow cooling with all of the necessary penalties applied in performance for leaving the gear down. All safe operation and in compliance.

TokyoNarita.

[Edited 2006-10-26 04:15:02]

User currently onlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4174 posts, RR: 76
Reply 10, posted (7 years 6 months 23 hours ago) and read 15294 times:
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Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 6):
1. This aircraft was heavy on take off, going for CDG. So take off performance is only granted by keeping to the procedures and this means "positive rate - gear up", otherwise the calculated profile can never ever be met.

...and after having established a clean climb, one gets the gear down for cooling. Simple . Only non professionals assume otherwise.

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 6):
2. If the brakes should be that hot by the time, the plane reaches the runway, then fire the crew immediately

What do you know about handling a taxying airplane ?
We see "brakes hot " everyday . A long taxy to the runway and the brakes could reach 150°c. If you have a down slope, it could be much higher.

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 6):
A take off under such circumstances wouldn't be possible, as hot brakes don't give the necessary performance at all.

I've got news for you : hot brakes work better than cold ones. Our limiting factor is reaching 200°c on the take off roll. In this case, you're very likely be seeing a brakes hot message during climb, and the procedure is to lower the gear for cooling, but a pilot worthy of that name would already planned for that maneuver.

Regards



Contrail designer
User currently offline777 From Italy, joined Sep 2005, 514 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 6 months 17 hours ago) and read 15067 times:

Quoting Pihero (Reply 10):
Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 6):
1. This aircraft was heavy on take off, going for CDG. So take off performance is only granted by keeping to the procedures and this means "positive rate - gear up", otherwise the calculated profile can never ever be met.

...and after having established a clean climb, one gets the gear down for cooling. Simple . Only non professionals assume otherwise.

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 6):
2. If the brakes should be that hot by the time, the plane reaches the runway, then fire the crew immediately

What do you know about handling a taxying airplane ?
We see "brakes hot " everyday . A long taxy to the runway and the brakes could reach 150°c. If you have a down slope, it could be much higher.

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 6):
A take off under such circumstances wouldn't be possible, as hot brakes don't give the necessary performance at all.

I've got news for you : hot brakes work better than cold ones. Our limiting factor is reaching 200°c on the take off roll. In this case, you're very likely be seeing a brakes hot message during climb, and the procedure is to lower the gear for cooling, but a pilot worthy of that name would already planned for that maneuver.

Regards

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Fortunately we have some pilots on this forum!


User currently offlineDispatchguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1248 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (7 years 6 months 15 hours ago) and read 14066 times:

According to the Boeing B747-400 Dispatch Deviation Guide (dated 6/29/2000):

M32-41-1 Wheel Brakes, 16 installed, 14 required

If this MEL is applied, you are to keep the gear extended for 2 minutes minimum after takeoff to allow the affected wheels to spin down before retraction, as in normal conditions, the main wheel brakes are applied upon gear retraction to slow the main gear down before retraction, whereas the nose gear wheels have snubbers to rub against in the nose wheel well. There are performance restrictions when this MEL is applied to insure adequate second segment climb performance with the gear extended. The weight penalty for main wheel brakes deactivated or capped is only about 5500 kgs per brake. There are other MEL items which also require a brake to be deactivated - the worst in terms of performance penaly is anti-skid.

Someone opines that the aircraft was "heavy" on takeoff, since it was going to CDG. I am sure that AF adhered to all of the requirements of their minimum equipment list, and the Airplane Flight Manual before dispatching the aircraft.



Nobody screws you better than an airline job!
User currently offlineBoeingfixer From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 525 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 6 months 14 hours ago) and read 13649 times:

The 744 Non Normal Checklist states that if the crew receives an EICAS BRAKE TEMP message they do the following;

1. Lower Landing Gear
2. Leave extended for 8 minutes.
3. Raise Landing Gear

Usually if it's a long, heavy weight taxi, the brake temps will be high. The crew can't take off with a BRAKE TEMP message illuminated(70 minute minimum cool down period) but if they are good at their job, they will anticipate getting the EICAS message in flight, if the temps are up there, and leave the gear down for 8 minutes. If they retracted them right away they are likely to get the BRAKE TEMP message and will have to lower the gear again according to the BRAKE TEMP NNC.



Cheers, John YYC
User currently offlineCurmudgeon From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 695 posts, RR: 22
Reply 14, posted (7 years 6 months 14 hours ago) and read 13056 times:

Quoting Pihero (Reply 10):



Quoting Pihero (Reply 10):
Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 6):
1. This aircraft was heavy on take off, going for CDG. So take off performance is only granted by keeping to the procedures and this means "positive rate - gear up", otherwise the calculated profile can never ever be met.

Bizarre statement, Legacy135. In a multi-engined aircraft, as I'm sure it has by now dawned on you, the take-off and departure profiles assume a performance degradation due to thrust loss, so ample buffer exists for a higher drag profile. If a subsequent thrust loss were to occur the gear would have to be retracted, but the risk of this would be factored into the procedure.



Jets are for kids
User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8092 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (7 years 6 months 13 hours ago) and read 12929 times:
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Hey its been hot in Miami for obvious reasons. If this had been some true emergency the local tablood new channel would have been all over this. "Air France Jumbo whose wheels don't work"

User currently offlineMiamiair From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 6 months 13 hours ago) and read 12484 times:

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 15):
Hey its been hot in Miami for obvious reasons

Actually, it has been pretty cool the past two days...

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 6):

You call out "Positive Rate" before you raise the gear...
In this case, the gear was left out in the breeze to cool off.

Your post is: redflag 


User currently offlineFlyLKU From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 787 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 6 months 12 hours ago) and read 11787 times:

I was on my way to Singapore by way of ORD-HKG. The captain was emphatic that we get "32 Left full length". At the time this was the longest flight in the world and for a while they actually towed the aircraft out to the end of the runway and started the engines there to save fuel until they (United) realized this was potentially damaging to the airplane.

Anyway, the controller cleared us to taxi across 27 Left (?). We did so very slowly and I attribute this to the bird's weight and the Captain's desire to minimize the heat that breaking would generate when we would have to stop immediately on the other side of the crossing runway.

An AMR MD-80 was on final to 27 Left and given our slow progress across the runway performed a go around. Needless to say he was not pleased with the controller and let him know it.

Did I mention that we didn't make HKG non-stop. We landed in TPE for an unscheduled pit-stop.



...are we there yet?
User currently offlineGeo772 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2004, 519 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 6 months 10 hours ago) and read 9745 times:

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 16):
In this case, the gear was left out in the breeze to cool off.

Although a more normal reason to leave the gear down after takeoff would be a a brake is physically locked out (hydraulics removed from it) due to a leak. This is so the gear has a chance to drop spinning prior to retraction. Otherwise the gyroscopic effect of the wheel can cause all sorts of problems.



Flown on A300B4/600,A319/20/21,A332/3,A343,B727,B732/3/4/5/6/7/8,B741/2/4,B752/3,B762/3,B772/3,DC10,L1011-200,VC10,MD80,
User currently offlineLeezyjet From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 4041 posts, RR: 54
Reply 19, posted (7 years 6 months 9 hours ago) and read 9188 times:

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 6):
I personally disagree with the theory of having them down for cooling:

1. This aircraft was heavy on take off, going for CDG. So take off performance is only granted by keeping to the procedures and this means "positive rate - gear up", otherwise the calculated profile can never ever be met.

2. If the brakes should be that hot by the time, the plane reaches the runway, then fire the crew immediately. This bird was completely mishandled. A take off under such circumstances wouldn't be possible, as hot brakes don't give the necessary performance at all. To be able to take off, brakes need to be fully functional, otherwise it's an unsafe procedure and forbidden. The only thing to do would be, to delay the take off until the brakes are cooled down to an acceptable temperature.

I've never heard so much rubbish my life from a supposed proffesional.

As you stated :-

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 6):
I personally never flew a 747

How can you make such sweeping generailised statements that you would "fire the crew immediately" when you have no idea about the operating proceedures if that particular a/c type, and by the sounds of it any a/c type !!. I hope that you are never in charge of a flight operations department, as with your attitude you are a serious hazard to flight safety.

As has been stated multiple times, leaving the gear down is a common problem on a/c and happens on a daily basis due to hot brakes, as does malfunctions in the gear retraction cycle calling for a re-cycle of the landing gear to resolve the problem.

Quoting TWAL1011727 (Reply 5):
I seriously doubt a B747-400 can purposely leave a specific gear down

The A340 can, it is possible to leave the centre gear retracted.

 Smile



"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
User currently offlineCaptSkibi From United States of America, joined May 2004, 150 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 6 months 9 hours ago) and read 8803 times:

Perhaps it was to fly through a rain cloud, so AF thought they'd get the main gear washed, too?  mischievous 


Private Pilot, Airplane Single Engine Land / DL Gold Elite
User currently onlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4174 posts, RR: 76
Reply 21, posted (7 years 6 months 9 hours ago) and read 8676 times:
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Quoting Dispatchguy (Reply 12):
M32-41-1 Wheel Brakes, 16 installed, 14 required



Quoting Dispatchguy (Reply 12):
There are performance restrictions when this MEL is applied to insure adequate second segment climb performance with the gear extended. The weight penalty for main wheel brakes deactivated or capped is only about 5500 kgs per brake. There are other MEL items which also require a brake to be deactivated

Quite right. On the 343, this deactivated main gear brake is the most limiting as you do not retract the gear and your climb segments performance fall to pieces. The fall in TOW could be in the region of forty,40, tons !



Contrail designer
User currently offlinePtharris From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 282 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (7 years 6 months 7 hours ago) and read 6404 times:

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 6):

Wow. I'm in no way an expert and what you say doesn't make any sense. Please let us know when you're behind the controls so I can take the next flight.

Oh my...  scared 



If at first you don't succeed, skydiving isn't for you.
User currently offlineCaptain.md-11 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 704 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 6 months 7 hours ago) and read 6160 times:

It is also possible on the DC-30 and (I believe) MD-11 to retract the centre gear unit, baring in mind certain weight restrictions.


Twins,twins, everywhere.... but where are the three holers?
User currently offlineLegacy135 From Switzerland, joined May 2005, 1052 posts, RR: 27
Reply 24, posted (7 years 6 months 5 hours ago) and read 4640 times:

Wow, my post really attacted the experts. Additionally many of you are that charming and objective, it's just a pleasure. But sure, running after a modest guy who calls himself somewhat similar like "Pilot Hero" makes complete sense:

I do appologize, I didn't realize that this aircraft was on a taxi, down the slopes at MIA Intl airport. Here for sure, the brakes will get real hot.

I do appologize, I didn't realize that real aircrafts do have individual gear selectors for each single gear. This plane we are talking about obviously did have one gear down, the others up. So this obviopusly was the hot one, the others for sure were retracted....

I do appologize, I didn't realize that it is an absolutely normal procedure to leave the gears down for cooling. Even though, if I don't fly an aircraft that has such a procedure, I spent roughly 5000 hours on commercials as passenger the past years. It is obvious, that with such little time of ground, I never could run into such a situation.

I do appologize that I didn't realize that a good brake needs to be hot to work, as Pilot Hero says. That's why annunciators start to flush. Amber is the color that stuff needs to be, otherwise ti's no good.
Maybe somebody mixed somthing here with temperatures of carbon brakes. They indeed get sharper, becoming hotter. But they run out of effectifiness as well, once they are real hot. But that's a detail and nothing else.

I do appologize I didn't realize that it is a real good practice to stand all the way down on the brakes and heating them up. It is for sure a great procedure, t least for the manufacturer of the brakes, as he can ship an new set out right away!

If there is anything else I can appologize for, I sure do it.............



Now lets come back to the serious part: I do admit, I didn't realize that it can come to situations, the gear on certain heavy needs to be lowered after take off, in order to cool the brakes down. This is a fact.
But I am pretty sure, it's a fact as well, this is an abnormal procedure, following an abnormal situation. Something went wrong before, otherwise those brakes would not be that hot. If there is no dirt in the linings and if they were not fitted wrong by the mechanics, it is hard to see, that the crew did just all great. It is a simple truth, standing all time on the brakes isn't the best technique. There might be a situation asking for this, but its not the normal case.

And sorry guys, if you crew stands on those rakes all the way down to the runway, untill they are overheat and takes off like this, having those brakes in an overtemp situation, I can't see what should be good about that. Just to make it clear, I never assumed that the crew of the flight, discussed here did so. Obviously they had one gear down, what looks like a malfunction, at least to me....... I am happy to learn more if some of you disagree anyhow.

To come to an end:

I did NOT assult the crew of this AF flight. I never assumed that they did something wrong.
I did NOT realize that a heavy can come in an ABNORMAL situation they need to lower the gear. I do appologize for and I am always happy to learn more.
I did express that a crew, violating a brake into overtemp, taking off out of permissable values and cooling then wheels down, can be laid off or what ever. They are not assumed to intentionally violate rules period.

Thats about it......... all the nice flowers came then from other great aviators. They might recommend me to look up technical publications of heavy equipement. I eventually will, it's always a good thing to know more than necessary. I for my part would recommend those guys, using their time to study maybe something about teamwork and communication. This can prevent you from crashing as well  Smile

Now I hope you all have a great evening. See you guys,

Legacy135 Wink


25 Post contains images N62NA : Wow, in just 24 hours this thread has logged 12258+ reads! All from little old me looking out my Miami Beach balcony on a Wednesday afternoon!
26 EMBQA : That is because your title is VERY misleading and inaccurate. What you saw last night is a very-very common departure technique. The gear are left do
27 N62NA : As they used to say in the Southern part of the USA, "Them's fighting words!" However, I won't get into a fight with you. I didn't think it was a mis
28 EMBQA : Your title is worded as a statement and as fact. Neither of which is true.
29 OPNLguy : Maybe it's just me, but I think the title had two interpretations. I'm sure you typed what you did in the context of trying to identify the flight...
30 Pihero : The problem with you is that you assume, without any proof (1) that the crew mishandled the "bird", and (2) trhat they were acting rashly.In this cas
31 Post contains images OPNLguy : Misspelling "apologize" as "appologize seven times is a great way for him to impress "senior management" at his outfit, no?
32 Post contains images Legacy135 : Hi Pierre, Once again, I did NOT say that this Crew here of AF95 did mishandle their plane. I actually stated more than one that I DON't think that th
33 Pihero : This is a lesson to me, as I didn't check your country of origin and I assumed(!!!) you had English as a mother-tongue. My apologies and regards.
34 Post contains images Ptharris : I'm sorry too. Figured since everyone was saying they were sorry, I didn't want to be left out.
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