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Virgin Atlantic Delays A380 EIS To 2013  
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6485 posts, RR: 3
Posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 17242 times:

Brief fair use excerpt from The Wall Street Journal:

Quote:
LONDON (Dow Jones)--Virgin Atlantic Airways Ltd. said Thursday it has reached an agreement with Airbus to defer deliveries of the six double-decker A380 airplanes it has on order until 2013.

http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20061026-714994.html


When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
133 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9633 posts, RR: 68
Reply 1, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 17232 times:
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Wow. Huge news, thanks for the link.

6-7 years from now. That's a long time.


User currently offlineBA319-131 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 8546 posts, RR: 54
Reply 2, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 17192 times:
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Interesting news.

Either they can't fill them year round or want to see how she gets on once in service.

Interesting indeed!



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User currently offlineRichard28 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2003, 1619 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 17197 times:

I guess this will help Airbus free up some earlier delivery slots to other carriers who have already ordered the A380.

I cant read the Wall Street Journal link as it requires login, does the article say how VS will cope with growth in the interim?

Other orders perhaps?


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 4, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 17177 times:

When was VS originally suppose to receive the frames?


"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6485 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 17179 times:

Quoting Richard28 (Reply 3):
I cant read the Wall Street Journal link as it requires login, does the article say how VS will cope with growth in the interim?

I actually posted the whole article. It's short.



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineSingapore_Air From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13742 posts, RR: 19
Reply 6, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 17142 times:

Marketwatch

The privately held airline said by then, the A380 will have proved its "innovative design.

The deferral will allow Airbus to prioritize production and deliveries for launch customers such as Singapore Airlines, Virgin said.




The article also stated that Virgin Atlantic Airways would extend leases on its B747-400 aircraft.

Virgin Atlantic Airways is 49% owned by Singapore Airlines Limited - A Member of Star Alliance



Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
User currently offlineSingapore_Air From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13742 posts, RR: 19
Reply 7, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 17091 times:

BBC NEWS Online>/a>

The airline had ordered six of the new superjumbos for delivery in 2009, but now wants to delay their arrival till 2013.



Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21532 posts, RR: 59
Reply 8, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 16980 times:

Well, the conversion to A330s didn't happen. Nor A340s.

Sounds like VS will be buying some Boeings soon, or these might get converted to 350X-10 at a later date.

Deferring these jets this long only confirms to me that they don't want/need them at all.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 9, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 16975 times:

Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 7):
The airline had ordered six of the new superjumbos for delivery in 2009, but now wants to delay their arrival till 2013.

Thanks.. checkmark 



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineScouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3390 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 16902 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):
Sounds like VS will be buying some Boeings soon, or these might get converted to 350X-10 at a later date

Not necessarily so - it may be convenient for them to drop down the queue and save the cash - how are they doing financially?


User currently offlineB707Stu From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 918 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 16754 times:

I'm sure this is going to get spun in every possible direction.

The bottom line? VS wants to see how this plane does without risking operational nightmares and potential loss to the bottom line. Pretty smart move.


User currently offlineOsiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3192 posts, RR: 25
Reply 12, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 16690 times:

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 10):
Not necessarily so - it may be convenient for them to drop down the queue and save the cash - how are they doing financially?

As far as we can tell with a private company they are doing fine. The reality of the situation is that they don't need them and they don't want the early ones because they have concerns about things such as separation, performance, maintainability. (IMHO)



I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
User currently offlineAvianca707359B From Colombia, joined Oct 2005, 206 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 16635 times:

Since Virgin is 49% owned by Singapore Air, could they have been "encouraged" to step to the back of the line to make room for SQ? Just a thought....


In Memory of HK-1402 "Sucre" & HK-1410 "Bolivar"
User currently offlineShenzhen From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 1710 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 16614 times:

Looking at the new delivery date one might think that they no longer want these airplanes, and will change the order to the new A350..... Isn't this the second "Virgin" intiated slide in delivery?

Cheers


User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 15, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 16576 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):
Sounds like VS will be buying some Boeings soon, or these might get converted to 350X-10 at a later date.

Deferring these jets this long only confirms to me that they don't want/need them at all.

I think you're right. Airlines almost never cancel Airbus or Boeing orders outright. They are nearly always cancel by converting to another model. Clearly, VS have no use for A320s. Airbus offer no competitive widebody right now to which VS could have converted their WhaleJet order. Hence, if VS want to cancel, the only logical route at this time is to defer until there is an A350 to order in its place.


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 16, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 16399 times:

I'm completely mystified by the deferral. What does VS gain? Aren't they still contractually obligated to take delivery, no matter what, by 2013? Why wouldn't they want the aircraft sooner for capacity and growth? Extending the leases on the 744's means they'll be "running in place".  Confused


"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12171 posts, RR: 17
Reply 17, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 16394 times:
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Sounds interesting. Maybe the A380 doesn't look good in VS future fleet.

User currently offlineOsiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3192 posts, RR: 25
Reply 18, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 16399 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 16):
I'm completely mystified by the deferral. What does VS gain? Aren't they still contractually obligated to take delivery, no matter what, by 2013? Why wouldn't they want the aircraft sooner for capacity and growth? Extending the leases on the 744's means they'll be "running in place".

The deferral probably includes 'free out' clauses to transition to other products at that time. 2013 just happens to be roughly the 350 EIS. (funny that huh :P )



I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
User currently offlineBA787 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2006, 2596 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 16367 times:

Bit strange that!


Makes me wonder if they are waiting to see what move BA makes


User currently offlineThebry From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 375 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 16335 times:
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Quoting Avianca707359B (Reply 13):
Since Virgin is 49% owned by Singapore Air, could they have been "encouraged" to step to the back of the line to make room for SQ? Just a thought....

I agree entirely. It makes sense that VS was "encouraged" to relinquish their slots for SQ. The Singapore Airlines brand has a larger stake in the A380 -- they were, after all, supposed to be "first to fly". They'll want a lot of these birds at airports in their livery as soon as they can get them. It'll be interesting to see how this unfolds once deliveries commence.


User currently offlineOsiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3192 posts, RR: 25
Reply 21, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 16307 times:

Quoting Thebry (Reply 20):
I agree entirely. It makes sense that VS was "encouraged" to relinquish their slots for SQ. The Singapore Airlines brand has a larger stake in the A380 -- they were, after all, supposed to be "first to fly". They'll want a lot of these birds at airports in their livery as soon as they can get them. It'll be interesting to see how this unfolds once deliveries commence.

I *really* doubt Branson would play that game *if* he *really* wanted the 380s. The fact that he would play that game says to me 'we don't really want them... but we don't want to lose our pull with Airbus and cause a panic by cancelling them'.

It also says 'we don't want first run aircraft' to me.



I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 22, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 16250 times:

Quoting Avianca707359B (Reply 13):
Since Virgin is 49% owned by Singapore Air, could they have been "encouraged" to step to the back of the line to make room for SQ?

I doubt it. If that were going on, SQ and VS would have simply swapped delivery slots.


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 23, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 16251 times:

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 21):
It also says 'we don't want first run aircraft' to me.

I think that has more to do with it.....recall, VS had a bit of issues with the A346 and I don't think they want to go through with that again...

I would be surprised if they cancelled their order in the future....but I guess when doesn't know as market dynamics always shift...



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineSlz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 16227 times:

Expect SQ to firm up their MoU for 9 additional A380s signed at Farnborough in the coming weeks, with pretty early delivery slots....

25 Jacobin777 : Do you have "inside" knowledge on it or are you just forming an opinion?
26 HB88 : You might be right, but then again, for an aircraft they are said frequently to be unhappy with, they have 17 with another 9 on order. I think this d
27 Post contains images Jacobin777 : It was only the "original teething" issues which VS had problems with..I never said it was a bad plane...
28 Post contains images Osiris30 : Why because I gave the plane as many letters in it's name as Airbus has given it design iterations? LOL By the way, can you answer the original quest
29 AndesSMF : '4 Engines 4 Long-Haul'???
30 Post contains images Ikramerica : Exactly right. Look at UPS with the A300 -> A380. If the A330F is launched, you might see that move to that frame. Look at AA with the 737NG. Deferre
31 VV701 : This four year - yes, four year - delay as I see it will reduce the chances of any BA 380 order.
32 Slz396 : Nope, because you talk about SQ being happy to order whatever crap they are offered... Some people happen to know just a little bit more than others
33 Pope : Perhaps they've realized that: 2 engines is the path 2 profitability
34 RichardPrice : Yeah, because the A340 is absolutely killing VS.
35 HB88 : Oh come on. No need to be impolite. There are enough asshats on a.net and Osiris does have a point about the 350 designation. FWIW, I've heard an SQ
36 9252fly : This is certainly interesting news. Is there a possibility that VS might give their firm order(not sure how many units)to SQ in exchange for their opt
37 RAPCON : 2 Engines for Economic Survival! We'll see VS livery on the 350 before we'll see it on the 380 (IMHO VS will ultimately cancel that order).
38 Zvezda : Ten years ago, one could make a reasonable case in favor of 4 engines for long-haul. That is no longer the case.
39 PolymerPlane : I thought SQ will receive most of the early productions. I don't think SQ needs VS to open slot for them Cheers, PP
40 SK736 : In your dreams maybe. Nonsense - if they didn't want or need them they would cancel the order not defer it. And let's face it, with the current probl
41 N328KF : It'll be interesting how Airbus fills the Toulouse Goose order gap between the end of the current orders and 2013. As it stands, they need around 50-
42 Post contains images RedFlyer : If you think about it, they ordered the plane back in 2001. That makes it 12 - 13 years from when the order was originally placed. Now THAT is a long
43 Post contains images Ikramerica : Quote 1/2 of a statement, lose credibility. If you didn't notice, there was a comma there... Seems like a reasonable, balanced statement to me. So ye
44 Zvezda : VS will almost certainly buy something else from Airbus (probably A350s) to cover this. I don't see Boeing taking this.
45 Co7772wuh : If that's the case , then the airlines are certainly standing behind Airbus .
46 Jacobin777 : Not necessarily.....VS has put down money with Airbus (just like BA, AF, and PR have done with Boeing), money which would be lost if they don't agree
47 Baw716 : We can spin this any number of different ways, but Branson is a smart guy. VS has problems with the A346s. This is pretty well known. The A380 deliver
48 Co7772wuh : Airbus have not met there end of the bargain by NOT delivering the A380 in time . VS has airbus bent over a barrel , no ? Under these circumstances ,
49 N328KF : Rumor says (and that's all it is at this point -- a rumor, absent publication of the contracts) that the A380 contracts say that the no-cost cancella
50 Astuteman : Rumour also has it that all A380 contracts could be cancelled with a mere $500k deposit per frame up to 12 months prior to delivery. If VS, or any ot
51 AirFrnt : It's not a bad deal for VS. They will push out when they have to make the decisions and the cash flow, and if the A380 does have the teething problem
52 Zvezda : I haven't seen the VS contract. Has anyone here?
53 Post contains images Jacobin777 : .. This is a "win/win" for both Airbus and VS.....
54 Post contains images AirFrnt : If they did, do you think anyone here would admit that in public ?
55 Post contains images Leezyjet : Yeah thats why they sold them all.
56 HZ747300 : Perhaps he is waiting to use his cash for BMI, sort out the merger details, join Star Alliance, then bring the A380 aboard.
57 Propulsion : This argument simply does not wash. The point of buying A380 was to BETTER the bottom line, not to WAIT 7YEARS to introduce a much delayed aircraft.
58 Osiris30 : The 350 is crap because it's not finalized. SQ signed an order with Airbus to guarantee slots. Airbus could have had a prop driven 4 seater on the ta
59 PolymerPlane : I think VS is deferring the order so they can look at how the A350 will turn out. If A350 turns out to be the ones that they can really use for the lo
60 BoomBoom : Then it looks like the prophecy of the A350 and 787 killing the A380 comes true.
61 Zvezda : I does look like it. Thinking of this as anything other than a cancellation would transcend optimism. Will MH be next?
62 SK736 : If this was in a book it would come under the heading of 'general fiction'.
63 Tugmaster : from the VS employee web site Fleet news – A380 Our A380 deliveries have been deferred until 2013. By then, we believe the A380 will have proven its
64 UAL777UK : IMHO I dont think we are going to see the 380 ever in VS colours at LHR, they will jump ship and go with the 350. Maybe a Boeing widebody but I doubt
65 Ikramerica : Sounds like an affirmation of just about everything in this thread... VS has no real need for the planes SQ owns 49% of VS SQ has a need for the plan
66 Post contains images Zvezda : This will assuredly be a conversion to the A350. It will happen in the future rather than now both because of tremendous pressure from Airbus to avoi
67 Bongodog1964 : Just a thought Could Willie Walsh put Beardys nose out of joint by being the 1st UK airline to put the A380 into service ? Don't take me too seriously
68 Khalyavia : While Boeing might have little hope of selling VS 787/777 over the 350, does this theoretical cancellation of A380 now open the door for 747-I at VS?
69 Zvezda : In theory, yes, but I'm not sure VS need anything that large.
70 Danny : If they voluntarily defer them do they loose their right to compensation for delay?
71 Zvezda : That would have been covered in the negotiations.
72 Adria : If that were the case then they would have canceled all the orders... Heeh, and that's exactly what they did well I find it hardly to believe because
73 Zvezda : That is effectively what they did. As with nearly all cancellations, they will end up being converted to other orders from the same manufacturer. Sou
74 Adria : Please read the following quote: Ok so give me your evidence or source to that post? Oh and you haven't given me any evidence or source where it coul
75 Zvezda : Read it again. That's not what is written. You're just inferring that. Anyway, you place far too much faith in marketing spin. Please stop lying abou
76 Joni : BA just said publicly they're looking into the A380 (among other planes). It depends on the contracts that have been signed. There are rumours around
77 Zvezda : When VS ordered their WhaleJets back in April, 2001, no other airliner rivaled its CASM. That has since changed. Cancellations almost always take the
78 Adria : Sorry I meant it not big enough, but still, the A380 is now in such a phase where airlines are waiting to see how it performs in service before givin
79 Post contains images Zvezda : Apology accepted. I've pointed that out too. EK have said that they are considering all options including cancellation. We'll have to wait and see bu
80 Rick767 : Absolutely! It's all PR, which I think you underestimate, especially from a company like VS. They aren't going to tell thousands of employees the tru
81 AirbusA6 : This is significant, because it's been VS who've pushed the concept of the A380 being a step change in comfort, with jucuzzis etc Other carriers like
82 Post contains images Revelation : The glass is half full... The glass is half empty... Me: The glass is twice as big as it needs to be!
83 Post contains images Jacobin777 : AF did it with their 747's..converted them to 777's...PR has 747 deposits, but now are looking at A346's and B777's....BA has deposit slots for the 7
84 Pmg1704 : In today's print edition in NYC it mentions Virgin "has extended the leases of several Boeing Co. 747-800 aircraft to meet its fleet needs." Quick cor
85 Danny : Usually airlines convert orders into other types because cancellations are costly. Because of two year delay airlines are now free to cancel A380 ord
86 Joni : Are you referring to some statistics here? Somehow I get that impression, but then again I don't think anyone has compiled such figures.
87 Singapore_Air : And anyone else. I am very confused.
88 Zvezda : No and no. Not quite. None of us know what the facts are behind the scenes. We're all speculating. What Adria believes contradicts what the facts usu
89 Joni : The quote is here: I don't agree that it "isn't clear", since they really do say so, and exactly so.
90 Post contains links and images Leelaw : Interesting, I thought the official party-line from Airbus regarding SQ's nascent follow-on order was that: The Letter of Intent (LOI) covers an orde
91 Avianca707359B : What a great line. You learn so much in these forums...
92 Zvezda : They say that something is possible, not that it will happen. I'm fairly sure that the first VS delivery slot was later than the last SQ slot. If so,
93 Post contains images Jacobin777 : but I think my point was well understood... My lexicon has improved thanks to Professor Leelaw...
94 Stitch : I only have frame assignments out to MSN025, and VS is not tasked for any of them while SQ gets seven.[Edited 2006-10-27 17:21:55]
95 Shenzhen : I'm afraid to say that Airlines don't control delivery slots. If Airbus can swap out some of delivery slots with SIA, then that is good for both SIA
96 Poitin : I would find it hard to believe that the slot assignments are not part of the contract and that the airline doesn't have some say in what happens to
97 Shenzhen : The contracts signed can't be transfered. If slots become available due to a contract deferral, then Virgin has a right to the new negotiated slots,
98 Leelaw : Any right of assignment of a delivery slot under the purchase contract by the purchaser to a third-party would be subject to the approval of the OEM.
99 Zvezda : It may be hard to believe, but it's true. There are delivery dates contracted but the ordering of slots is entirely up to the manufacturer because th
100 Leelaw : Contracts often contemplate the assignment of delivery slots, but not without the prior approval of the OEM.
101 Baroque : I think I can let you into a secret here. Sir RB was so devastated to learn from the Skybus thread that his education level was too low for him to asp
102 Poitin : As I said "This would all be negotiated." Obviously, a three party negotioation, but Airbus couldn't simply said, "AH, we have a slot, which we are g
103 Post contains images Adria : Well strong facts that are coming from VS say a different story...but I'm sure that we'll know soon whether this is a marketing spin or QF has someth
104 BoomBoom : This is the second time Virgin has delayed the A380. In 2004 they delayed delivery by 18 months.
105 Osiris30 : VS isn't actually delayed two years though. As far as Virgin is concerned I think the 380 was more for press than purpose. A small number of frames,
106 Post contains images Jacobin777 : Er, the point of the comment was to show trend...
107 Joni : I don't think even Branson would conclude an EUR1B deal "for press".
108 Ken777 : If Virgin worked with Airbus to avoid the embarrassment of a cancellation then they are probably free to cancel later when the program is in better sh
109 Singapore_Air : I will too rely on my ignorance but will pose that it would be very strange for a 49% shareholder, in this case Singapore Airlines, to allow precious
110 Joni : That sort of doesn't chime in with what VS said in their employee site. Would you also be fairly sure that all VS' planes were slated for later deliv
111 Stitch : As I recall, the reason VS gave for the delay was because LAX was not ready for the plane and that was one of the primary destinations VS intended to
112 Ken777 : Singapore Air, My thinking was that Airbus would be very happy to have VS slots going to SQ because they had the QF deal about done and the VS slots
113 AirNZ : Sorry, you've lost me......how does VS and SQ compete on LHR-HKG and LHR-HKG-SYD since SQ don't fly, nor never have flown, either one?
114 BoomBoom : For Airbus, Making Huge Jet Requires New Juggling Acts WSJ may 27, 2004
115 Post contains links Stitch : Thanks, BoomBoom. Found the article I was thinking of in the May 17, 2004 issue of Airwise: http://news.airwise.com/stories/2004/05/1084789460.html
116 Zvezda : SQ never competed with VS on HKG-LHR, as far as I can recall. They do compete on LHR-SYD, VS via HKG and SQ via SIN.
117 BoomBoom : Apparently there were a number of reason for the initial 18 month delay. This latest delay is remarkable because Virgin had bold plans to utilize the
118 Ikramerica : And now those excuses don't hold this time. And nobody can tell me that an airline will delay delivery of a jet from 2006 to 2013 who actually wants
119 Joni : Of course, they weren't going to get the jets in 2006 before the delay.
120 Zvezda : IIRC, VS were originally contracted to start taking WhaleJets in 2007.
121 Poitin : Still true, and oddly, although SFO is "A380 ready" it is really on an ad hoc basis. They have to close down the parallel runway when it it arriving
122 Post contains images Ikramerica : The quoted article says otherwise. The claim is that VS were originally going to start receiving jets in 2006. I personally thought it was 2007. Whic
123 Post contains images BCAL : Well the reason seems to be Knowing his insatiable appetite for publicity, Branson must have seized the opportunity to place orders for the A380 with
124 Jacobin777 : They are supposedly to receive their planes 12-13 years after ordering it......that is simply incredible....
125 Osiris30 : I didn't say purely press.. I said mostly press LOL.. Branson has done a lot of stranger things, just for press purposes in his life. I'm sure they w
126 Zvezda : SFO don't really want any WhaleJets because of the disruption to operations. They would probably be diverted whenever flow control is imposed due to
127 Jacobin777 : They wouldn't be converted into taxiways.....there are multiple plans as to what the final situation will be..but most (if not all) IIRC add addition
128 Zvezda : Actually, there were about 30 different plans proposed and I believe all of them were for four runways total when all is done.
129 Jacobin777 : They boiled it down to 4-5 proposals...of which still included at least one of the 28's and one of the 1's... cheers...
130 Richard28 : QF operate from a different terminal in LAX to VS.
131 Zvezda : Correct. They were to keep 1R/19L and 28R/10L while converting 1L/19R and 28L/10R into taxiways. As I wrote:
132 Post contains images Poitin : Just where are they going to put these runways? Oh, in the bay. Right. If you want to see blood all over the place, just suggest it and watch Greenpe
133 Post contains images Jacobin777 : See your point..but the removal of one of the 28's/1's is only one of their proposals..will be interesting to see what happens in the next few years.
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