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Confirmed: Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft  
User currently offlineCarnoc From China, joined Oct 2001, 875 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 1 month 6 hours ago) and read 25936 times:

On October 29, Qantas Airways announced that it had placed firm orders for eight more Airbus A380s, the world's largest passenger aircraft.

The Chief Executive Officer of Qantas, Mr Geoff Dixon, said the order increased the airline's commitment to the A380 to 20 aircraft, to be delivered between August 2008 and 2015.

Mr Dixon said the A380 was clearly the most suitable aircraft for Qantas to deploy on dense longhaul routes from Australia to the United States, the United Kingdom, Continental Europe and possibly the Middle East.

Full details available at http://en.carnoc.com/list/1/1294.html


303 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 33444 posts, RR: 85
Reply 1, posted (9 years 1 month 6 hours ago) and read 25960 times:
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This should cause SQ to pull the trigger on their extra nine.

Looks like there's life in the gal, after all.

Looking more and more like the 748 is going to appeal only to non-A380 operators. I imagine EK's comments about it are just smoke to try and get some better terms from Airbus on their A346 cancellation. I expect 773ERs will be replacing those birds, not 748s.

User currently offlineBoeingfever777 From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 409 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (9 years 1 month 6 hours ago) and read 25923 times:

Guess they got a sweet deal to firm up these orders. Dixon, is right... works for the LAX, SFO, and LHR routes.

Wonder what SQ will do now?

and 2015? damn that is long.

Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
User currently offlineFrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 4168 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (9 years 1 month 6 hours ago) and read 25855 times:

Could it be some kind of 'please forgive us' deal from Airbus?

Not that I doubt that they'll need those A/Cs in the future.

Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineN31029 From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 101 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (9 years 1 month 6 hours ago) and read 25860 times:

Hi Everyone.

Even if the A380 achieves nothing more than niche status over its lifetime, it is certainly a niche that only it can fill - thus - operators in need of a VLA know their long-term business model has only one solution. And they have the vision, and patience, to await its arrival.

To me this is excellent business planning and shows great foresight on the part of airlines wishing to capitalize on the A380 opportunity.

Could all of these airlines be wrong?

Blessings, N31029

John 3:16
User currently offlineCloudyapple From Hong Kong, joined Jul 2005, 2458 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (9 years 1 month 6 hours ago) and read 25813 times:


Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sydney, 29 October 2006

Qantas Airways announced today that it had placed firm orders for eight more Airbus A380s, the world¡¦s largest passenger aircraft.

The Chief Executive Officer of Qantas, Mr Geoff Dixon, said the order increased the airline¡¦s commitment to the A380 to 20 aircraft, to be delivered between August 2008 and 2015.

Mr Dixon said the A380 was clearly the most suitable aircraft for Qantas to deploy on dense longhaul routes from Australia to the United States, the United Kingdom, Continental Europe and possibly the Middle East.

"Our decision to increase our order has been made after an extensive review of the recent problems at Airbus and the delivery schedule delays of the A380.

"We are convinced that these problems relate to industrialisation issues at Airbus and will be remedied, and in no way relate to the technical capacity of the A380.

"The A380 has breakthrough technology and everything we have seen reinforces our view that it is the best available aircraft for Qantas.

"It will provide unprecedented comfort and space, as well as meeting our payload and range requirements."

Mr Dixon said Qantas had made an original order for 12 A380s with options for a further 12 aircraft in 2000.

"We have negotiated an attractive ¡¥package¡¦ to firm up an additional eight A380s. The package also includes an additional four A330-200 aircraft which will help Qantas mitigate capacity concerns associated with the delay of the airline¡¦s first A380s.

"The four A330-200s will be delivered between December 2007 and December 2008."

Mr Dixon said the terms of the new contract provided, among other things, protection against any further delay in the A380 delivery schedule and slide rights in the event of changed circumstances.

He said the Qantas Board believed the new aircraft order gave the Qantas Group long term certainty of supply of the world¡¦s most up to date aircraft.

"In parallel with the A380 order, we have a contract with Boeing for the supply from 2008 of up to 115 B787 new generation aircraft, which also have the very latest technology for aircraft in the 300 seater range.

"The Boeing 787 and the Airbus A380 both have up to 20 per cent lower operating costs than existing aircraft and will form the nucleus of the fleets out to 2015 for Qantas and our low cost airline Jetstar."

Mr Dixon said Qantas would use a combination of outright purchase and operating leases in acquiring the aircraft.

"All the costs of these new aircraft will be met by operating cash flows," he said.

Mr Dixon said Qantas had also decided to buy five more Boeing 737-800 aircraft for delivery from February 2008.

"The Boeing 737-800s will be used along with our existing 33 B737-800s in Australian domestic operations and will replace older B737-400s. The B737-400s will be sold, redeployed or converted to dedicated freighter aircraft."

The Qantas Airways Group has a fleet of 219 aircraft.

[Edited 2006-10-29 04:02:57]

User currently offlineNeo From Brazil, joined Jan 2001, 672 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (9 years 1 month 5 hours ago) and read 25770 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
This should cause SQ to pull the trigger on their extra nine.

why should they?? Albeit all the problems faced by the A380, airlines seem to be willing to back up the project afterall, even with some Airbus extra help..rsrsrs

User currently offlineBoston92 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3390 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (9 years 1 month 5 hours ago) and read 25731 times:

Is Qantas the only airline that has 787 AND A380 orders?

"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
User currently offlineCloudyapple From Hong Kong, joined Jul 2005, 2458 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (9 years 1 month 5 hours ago) and read 25740 times:

Note an additional 4 A332s in the package. Also 5 more B738s.

So far 3 of the original A388 customers have placed follow on orders despite all the negative news on the program. None has pulled the plug, yet. Glad airline executives think longterm unlike some A388 bashers. This is going to put the pressure on airlines not ordered the A388 but competing with those who have ordered. B748 is a good aeroplane but is it good enough to compete?

[Edited 2006-10-29 03:58:30]

User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4273 posts, RR: 87
Reply 9, posted (9 years 1 month 5 hours ago) and read 25643 times:

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 7):
Is Qantas the only airline that has 787 AND A380 orders?

No, Singapore Airlines have both models on order too as does KE & CZ

Regards, PanAm_DC10

Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
User currently offlineFuturecaptain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 1 month 5 hours ago) and read 25635 times:

I bet Airbus offered such deep discounts the airline couldn't refuse. Qantas executives are probably laughing at how cheap they got these birds.

Still the situation remains that there havn't really been new orders for the A380 in awhile. Alot of airlines just firming up options they've had for years.

User currently offlineSanjet From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 181 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (9 years 1 month 5 hours ago) and read 25535 times:

Could this be due to the facts that the airlines received cash compensations for the late deliveries and are partially using that money to gain more aircraft and possibly reselling them later on? Could the deal be that sweet?

Will Fly For Food!
User currently offlineUALMMFlyer From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 135 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (9 years 1 month 5 hours ago) and read 25534 times:

IMHO, Qantas has just made a great business deal. Airbus also made a deal that is critical for strategic reasons.... by keeping 748I out of two airlines very with greatest needs for large aircrafts (SQ being the other).

The positive annocunements by SQ and QF on the performance of the A380 can not be over shadowed by numrous remarks about Airbus made deals on pricing that airlines couldn't refuse. At the end of the day, airlines still need to operate an efficient fleet with desired performance to make money. No one should sell A380 short with two creditable customers with more more orders.

I wonder how this will implact of QF's plan on ULR aircrafts? Are they still considering buying 77W and 772LR?

Treat others like you'd like to be treated!
User currently offlineAussie_ From Australia, joined Dec 2000, 1767 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (9 years 1 month 5 hours ago) and read 25466 times:

So are the 4x 332s those previously announced (2x JQ and 2x QF) or are these a further 4?

User currently offlineFuturecaptain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (9 years 1 month 5 hours ago) and read 25431 times:

Quoting UALMMFlyer (Reply 12):
Airbus made deals on pricing that airlines couldn't refuse.

Quoting Sanjet (Reply 11):
gain more aircraft and possibly reselling them later on?

Good idea Sanjet. We all know airlines are now getting these aircraft very cheaply, by very large new aircraft standards. Could we perhaps see some of these up for sale, Qantas could probably make money on a sale, get some quick cash to put into other airline operations. Perhaps a leasing company will take them?

User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12802 posts, RR: 17
Reply 15, posted (9 years 1 month 5 hours ago) and read 25431 times:

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 5):
The B737-400s will be sold, redeployed or converted to dedicated freighter aircraft."

Some of those B734s will replace the rest of Jetconnects B733 fleet.

User currently offlineSKY1 From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 885 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (9 years 1 month 5 hours ago) and read 25365 times:

Quoting Aussie_ (Reply 13):
So are the 4x 332s those previously announced (2x JQ and 2x QF) or are these a further 4?

"We have negotiated an attractive 'package' to firm up an additional eight A380s. The package also includes an additional four A330-200 aircraft which will help Qantas mitigate capacity concerns associated with the delay of the airline's first A380s.

"The four A330-200s will be delivered between December 2007 and December 2008."

Time flies! Enjoy life!
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 26981 posts, RR: 81
Reply 17, posted (9 years 1 month 5 hours ago) and read 25342 times:
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Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 14):
We all know airlines are now getting these aircraft very cheaply, by very large new aircraft standards.

We "all" know?

I don't know that. Do you have a source?


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinePlanemanofnz From New Zealand, joined Sep 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (9 years 1 month 4 hours ago) and read 25220 times:

Hopefully now this means we will see the 380 on selected Trans-Tasman flights to AKL and CHC and also maybe we will see the 380 on the MEL-AKL-LAX route.

User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4273 posts, RR: 87
Reply 19, posted (9 years 1 month 4 hours ago) and read 25187 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
This should cause SQ to pull the trigger on their extra nine.

With respect, please provide me with one link that states SQ would not take the 9 they have on LoI. I do not believe they have publicly stated that commitment is in question.

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 10):
Still the situation remains that there havn't really been new orders for the A380 in awhile. Alot of airlines just firming up options they've had for years.

Options conversions are still sales, right? What's more SQ & QF are not exactly second tier customers either. Once these 2 LoI's are firmed then they will have succeeded in placing new orders, irrespective as to whether they are with existing customers. Accept the fact, that despite it's problems, the A380 can still sell.

Quoting Aussie_ (Reply 13):
So are the 4x 332s those previously announced (2x JQ and 2x QF) or are these a further 4?

As the following member pointed out;

Quoting SKY1 (Reply 16):
The package also includes an additional four A330-200 aircraft

It is my understanding that they are 4 new A332s over and above what has previously been announced.

Regards, PanAm_DC10

Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2159 posts, RR: 16
Reply 20, posted (9 years 1 month 4 hours ago) and read 25051 times:

Good news and congratulations to Airbus. The A380 is coming. Carriers are drawn to it.

The news of its demise are greatly exaggerated  Wink



Tonight we fly
User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 68
Reply 21, posted (9 years 1 month 4 hours ago) and read 25007 times:

Quoting Sanjet (Reply 11):
Could this be due to the facts that the airlines received cash compensations for the late deliveries and are partially using that money to gain more aircraft and possibly reselling them later on? Could the deal be that sweet?

Which, of course, they could only do if the aircraft sold at all - which is something that a lot of people around here still doubt that it will...

Then again, heaven forbid, Qantas might just actually want to operate those planes themselves...

Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineVHVXB From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 5533 posts, RR: 16
Reply 22, posted (9 years 1 month 4 hours ago) and read 24984 times:

Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 18):
maybe we will see the 380 on the MEL-AKL-LAX route.

Probably not but you may starting seeing QF using its 3 class B744 on that route

User currently offlineWingedMigrator From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2345 posts, RR: 56
Reply 23, posted (9 years 1 month 4 hours ago) and read 24939 times:

Quoting Asturias (Reply 20):
The news of its demise are greatly exaggerated

 checkmark  for a moment I thought it was April 1st. Great news for the A380 program... after a month of despair.

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 10):
I bet Airbus offered such deep discounts the airline couldn't refuse.

Of course, since we all know it couldn't possibly be a good airplane.  covereyes 

User currently offlineA5XX From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 247 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (9 years 1 month 4 hours ago) and read 24925 times:

Airbus is having tough times, right now. No one can deny that. But, eventually, they'll get the things fixed up.

By then, the A380, will be the rightful Queen of the skies.  Smile

We need a healthy Airbus, just as we need a healthy Boeing.  Smile


we are the boeing... resistance is futile...You will be assimilated
25 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ... Two top-tiered customers indeed..it didn't seem as if QF might pull the trigger on their options, but they did.... Congratulations to both QF and
26 Baron95 : Couldn't have come at a better time for Airbus. Deep discounts or not, 8 additional A380s is no small change - it shows a true conviction by QF that t
27 Calags : Well, this strongly suggests that the performance numbers for the A380 that are being presented to the airlines are satisfactory to both QF and SQ ot
28 Post contains links EHHO : Uhm.. It was announced last week that break-even will be at 420 frames currently. Quite a long way to go yet.. Break-even Outlook For A380 Now At 420
29 Post contains images Osiris30 : And that's the real shame of this. I'm guessing QF got them at a song and is taken advantage of the vacated Virgin slots (i.e. either those slots or
30 PITrules : How are potential future 748i orders by SQ and QF being kept out? Both have large 744 fleets which are only getting older. The A380 will replace some
31 Calags : I didn't mean to suggest that the new orders would bring Airbus to the break-even point. I was merely speculating if the new orders would actually br
32 Art : That is not going to be too difficult: Current announced orders - ca 175 Production to end 2010 - ca 40 Production @ 40 frames per year from 2011 mea
33 Osiris30 : I think he was talking about the frames themselves... in other words they may contribute slightly in the general hunt to breakeven but not much.. and
34 Post contains images Mariner : Hmmm? They say "an attractive package". which I am sure it was. But they are unlikely to say anything else ("Airbus is robbing us blind on these orde
35 Khobar : They got 4 A330's and a guarantee that they won't have any further problems with the A380. That doesn't sound like a hell of a deal?
36 Post contains images Boeing767-300 : hmm.....MD11??? Just because Airbus say it does not mean it is factual. Remember it was a 555 three class and now its 480 seats... go figure!!!! It w
37 DfwRevolution : Of course not, contracts typically prevent disclosure of specific details. Let's not be naive people, both the SQ and QF add-on orders are being made
38 Mariner : I odn't know what the "attractive package" is. I don't know what they are paying, for the A380's or the A330's. Do you? mariner
39 Art : To be conservative, let's say that estimate of 1200 by 2025 is 100% out and that the market turns out to be 600. I guess that the A380 would gain two
40 Post contains images Mariner : Exactly my point. So I doubt anyone here knows what the actual deal is. And as in my other point - definitions of "an attractive package" can be infi
41 2wingtips : I wonder if QF snapped up some of VS's deferred A380s? Firstly, I will congratulate Airbus. It is a significant order from a blue-chip customer, irres
42 Keesje : Is there any information on the price or are we simply downplaying a remarkable signal to the market? We neither do have info on what price Boeing as
43 Elvis777 : Hi Keesje, An order is an order. Congratulations, not just to you but to all eads supporters. Perhaps I am wrong and the orders will start turning up.
44 Osiris30 : Seeing as these were firming of previous options, and there's 4 a330s in the mix you can bet that the 330s came at next to nothing cost wise (or the
45 Dank : As i read it, they are part of the negotiated package (and it isn't even clear to me that the negotiated package doesn't include extra costs for othe
46 777ER : BA havn't ordered A380s
47 Mariner : I would hope they did bend over a barrel. I would hope they continue to bend over a barrel with any remaining A380 customers who are not yet "negotia
48 Post contains links WingedMigrator : Why would the new orders be "further discounted" due to the production delays? All the delays were known when the order was placed. It's not like QF
49 Dank : And I would seriously doubt that they will except in the highly unlikely event that Boeing drops the 748i. Nobody says that you have to replace like
50 Calags : Granted, Airbus isn't off the hook yet. They'd better deliver on the performance numbers or else the airlines would really stick it to them. We alrea
51 Osiris30 : Even if Airbus broke even and nothing better on that deal it's a good deal for them. They need to show some strength right now. Selling the frames at
52 Post contains images Keesje : I wouldn´t be surprised if QF is projecting different seatcounts for their A380 then the initial ones (480 seats) A rational 560-600 seat lay out do
53 Antares : Qantas also cut a helluva deal on the 787s. And it cut a helluva deal on the 747-400ERs. And it sliced Boeing to the bone over the 65 initial order of
54 777ER : IMO the B787 would more likly be seen at DFW then the A380
55 Osiris30 : Out of curiousity, what was so funny about my statement of fact?
56 VHVXB : won't this be QF's first route with the A380
57 Art : I think that Boeing took a commercial risk on the 747ADV, believing that the freighter would sell well for decades and justify the launch in its own
58 Post contains images PlaneHunter : Indeed interesting - while certain people here continue to talk about upcoming "almost certain" cancellations, certain airlines order even more frame
59 Ikramerica : No truer words were ever written. The question is not whether airlines like QF or SQ or EK need the plane, as they really do, but whether other custo
60 Post contains images Astuteman : We've been hearing this message ever since the first A380 contract was let. Every frame that Airbus have sold should have been sold originally at a l
61 Art : Something amiss here! According to Richard Aboulafia (via Gellmann rept), it costs more like $200 million. So who is right? Oh! Richard Aboulafia is
62 MrComet : I agree. While I still contend that the A380 is limited in sales long term by being a niche aircraft it is a legitimate niche and one that QF fits in
63 Astuteman : To be fair to RA, I have a feeling that he was responsible for the market analysis in the Gellman report, and not the (what should I call it?) "produ
64 PlaneHunter : I'm not sure which EK you mean in particular, but the one which is active in the airline business does not order everything, does indeed take somethi
65 Leelaw : According to Mr. Sperl's (Airbus CFO) updated break-even analysis from last week: deliveries thru 2010 will total 84 units (1- '07, 13- '08, 25- '09,
66 Post contains images Zvezda : Only QF is a firm order. SQ is only a LoI at this time. Still, this news is very positive for Airbus. With respect, I question the commitment of ever
67 MauriceB : So in total they orderd 8 more A380's 4 More A330-300's? 5 more 737-800 they also stated that the 5 aditional 737-800's will replace the 747-300 on do
68 Art : Thanks for the correction. Last figures I remember were 1,9,20 for 2007,2008,2009. I had not heard the figure of 45 pa before except last year when s
69 Zvezda : More or less, it implies that is about the average an airline will pay. The figure is unsurprising.
70 Mariner : If you say so. But: I am not an accountant, but I am not clear how any aircraft can achieve break-even if it is free. mariner
71 ZK-NBT : Congrats to Airbus and QF on this one! Surprised me! Will be interesting, i'd imagine most if not all of them will be 3 class, they will still have ab
72 Post contains images Anax : Well it seems that this order comes as an answer to those who believed the A380 and Airbus in the long run , were facing death. Congrats to Qantas & A
73 Leelaw : The good news is QF has exercised eight of its twelve options, no doubt a boost for the A380 program. The bad news is that even if all 167 firm order
74 Post contains images Ken777 : Some ramblings: Congrats to both QF and Airbus. It's always exciting to see a nice order for any plane announced and particularly good to see orders f
75 Rheinbote : If you are cash-strapped, providing compensation in the form of bargains in the mid/long-term probably is much more viable than providing near-term ca
76 Post contains images Astuteman : Art, I've a suspicion that the $115m (or whatever the real number is) is an "Airframe only" figure, i.e. the price of the engines will have to be add
77 Vfw614 : I think it is fair to assume that there two options on the table: Either Airbus will pay damages for the delay as agreed in the original contract and
78 Manni : The comments made in regards to the QF order by some aren't really unexpected, but I have to give it to some... your creativity seams endless. Boeing
79 Zvezda : Losing 6 and picking up 8 is good news for the WhaleJet program, but it doesn't get it off the critical condition list (if you'll pardon continuation
80 Adria : Great news but this is not a surprise. The market of the A380 is obviously there and the airlines want them coming to their fleet as soon as possible
81 Mariner : Is it only on a.net that something that is eight frames closer than it was yesterday is described as "receding"? ??? mariner
82 Adria : pure speculation... ...I guess you are talking about the 747-8I?
83 Rheinbote : It can be established by collating various public sources that single-aisle airplanes like 319 and 737-700 go for $25-27m each when bought in bulk. Th
84 Zvezda : Of course. It's a good deal for both Airbus and QF. If it weren't they wouldn't have signed it. All in all a very good week for Airbus despite the ef
85 MRURUN : Of course it has life and will blow all you nay-sayers socks off.
86 Zvezda : It looks like you're comparing actual prices without engines to list prices including engines.
87 Rheinbote : You may be right, I have to check back.
88 Post contains images Astuteman : Is that the answer to my earlier question? If so, thanks. Regards
89 2wingtips : FRA........................maybe. CDG........................couldn't make money with 2/3 class 744s. If it comes back to the QF network, it will mos
90 Zvezda : I'm not sure in that case. I've been in airliner negotiations. 45% off list is plausible. 60% off list is not plausible.
91 Iwok : VS: just curious if you have other sources outside of a.net? From what I have read on the financial sites, these orders are in a sort of limbo. MH: I
92 Mariner : "Receding" may have been the correct word yesterday. Bu something that came a little closer today is hardly "receding". Just a week or so ago, someon
93 Art : That would make the $155 million A380 price tag look more realistic. According to the Morgan Stanley report mentioned earlier, RR Trent 900's for an
94 SK736 : There's a strong smell of sour grapes around here.
95 RichardPrice : Ive been away for a day or so, who cancelled 6 A380 frames? VS only deferrred theirs as far as I know.
96 Zvezda : Yes, I have other sources outside of a.net. The chances of VS taking delivery of their WhaleJets is about the same as the chances of PR taking delive
97 Zvezda : Yes. There is likely to be a roughly equal amount of celebrating on both sides. If anything, Airbus execs might be even happier than QF execs right n
98 VHVXB : I thought they couldn't make money because they were restricted to 3 services a week this route was operated by the B743 SFO should go daily with the
99 Zvezda : It's almost impossible to get good yields on less frequent than daily service because business travellers generally avoid flights less frequent than
100 Mohavewolfpup : Is the first one they built still doing flight testing/etc to help debug the future generations more, or has it been retrofitted with a regular cabin,
101 Zvezda : Mohavewolfpup, The first B777 was eventually sold to CX and now operates in regular service. Boeing spent years trying to sell it to UA because it was
102 Monteycarlos : Any word on where the A332's are to be deployed? I find this the more interesting of the news. QF exercising A380 options was bound to happen and they
103 ThePRGuy : This was always the case. A years worth of delays was hardly going to sink a multi billion euro project... Thanks Alex
104 Art : Would that be one Mars year (668/9 Earth days)? Edit (correction): 669 sols or 687 Earth days[Edited 2006-10-29 13:19:31]
105 Keesje : Agree on that. Committing to billions of expenditure in a proven unpredictable market doesn´t make any airline happy, now & then you have to.. As wa
106 Joni : Zvezda, I suddenly began to wonder how you'd handle the news if an A380 customer really did cancel their orders?
107 Kaneporta1 : Over the next 20 years, that means Airbus has to sell (420-167) 253 A380s to break even. That's about 13 A380s per year. Doesn't seem that hard to me
108 Post contains images Stitch : That's what I get for using an American euphemism. "Pull the trigger" is an American business term meaning consummate the deal so I am saying SQ will
109 Leelaw : I'm not sure what your point is, QF committing to the delivery of 20 aircraft over 8 years (2008-2015) seems fairly conservative? According to the pr
110 Zvezda : A year or three from now, when VS officially confirm that the order has been converted to A350s, I'll try to resist the temptation to post a reminder
111 Post contains images David L : I think this is a question of interpretation. I took Stitch's comment to mean SQ might now go ahead with their order - they had the order in their si
112 Leskova : And just to add to that, Boeing767-300, would you also consider the B747-400ER a failure? After all, Boeing says it's a 416-seater, yet Qantas only p
113 Post contains images Stitch : Perhaps QF didn't secure earlier option delivery slots like SQ did? Or QF can't get another airline for defer as some claim VS did for SQ? Or as a co
114 BoeingBus : Great news for Airbus at high superficial level... but as yous start thinking of what is happening here you begin to realize that this is not such goo
115 NAV20 : Obviously a win for Airbus on the face of it. However, knowing Qantas (or any other well-run Australian company) the deal will be accompanied by very
116 Stitch : QF and SQ will compete with A380s on the Kangaroo route, but they also have other routes where they will be the sole A380 operator. So them adding ad
117 Zvezda : I don't think that was the argument. I don't think it had anything to do with nominal seat counts. I think they were arguing that the reduction in nu
118 Stitch : And since Business Class is where the money is made, they would reduce Economy seat counts to keep the same (or more) number of larger Business Class
119 Kaneporta1 : That, and the introduction of premium economy cabins. Just think, BA operates 747s with 293 seats and 777s with 229 seats, a lot less than if there w
120 Post contains images Manni : How stupid of them, giving up these slots to QF, SQ or soon perhaps LH. But tell me, what airlines should these slots be reserved for? If it's that w
121 Tifoso : Congratulations to Airbus and Boeing for the new orders from QF. This has me wondering, with follow on orders from several airlines, isn't the barrier
122 Leelaw : As a general matter, it seems unlikely that any aircraft currently in production will still be in production twenty-years from now without considerab
123 Post contains images David L : Sorry, Stitch, it's a fast moving thread - you must have posted as I was typing.
124 RIHNOSAUR : cool !! finally some good news from the airbus A380 camp... they need it!!! cant wait to see the new king of the sky operating !! congrats to airbus a
125 Post contains images MotorHussy : Looking forward to seeing some of the fleet laying over in LAX like the QF 744's do currently. Regards MH
126 Post contains images Stitch : If the A388 is the better choice based on the financial models of the airlines ordering them, then that is what they will buy. Better to give a two y
127 Post contains images Astuteman : I'd like to second that, if I could N31029, as I'm sure everyone else would, too. Your view perhaps. I suspect reality is not quite so bleak. Probabl
128 Post contains links SLCPilot : I'd still like to see more input from common posters (i.e. L-188, ANCFlyer,HAWK21M,Leskova,Ikramerica,Keesje,David L,NAV20,Manni & others) on how many
129 Post contains images Osiris30 : You left out the part where I said I wasn't saying they sold them at cost. But if they *HAD* it would have still been a good deal for press/morale pu
130 Zvezda : Setting aside the understatement of the development costs, 300 sales for a $15B outlay is not better than 150 sales for a $12.5B outlay. We lost mone
131 Poitin : I am very much afraid that in three or so years you will be able to tell that "I told you so." However, you have too much class to to that. In some w
132 RichardPrice : EK has previous said that they would buy the -900 stretch if Airbus were to make it available.
133 727200er : This order is not really a surprise to me. The timing is earlier than I expected, but with all the delays etc., it's good timing for both. Way back wh
134 Osiris30 : Honestly; EK says they want everything, then when presented with exactly what they asked for complain it's too big, too small, too heavy, too light,
135 PlaneHunter : I doubt that the management's focus is changed significantly by an order for eight more frames... PH
136 Zvezda : That was not a clamoring, it was a long time ago, and much has changed since then.
137 Post contains images OzGlobal : That's right, the most effective, high performing and profitable airlines in the world, with greatest experience in quality service on long haul rout
138 Poitin : I hope you are right, for we all need the A350 XWB or whatever it turns out to be. They should also crank out an interim A330E. Just dust off the pla
139 Thebry : I think it's kewl that Qantas is buying even more A380s -- it increases the likelihood that I'll see one at my home airport (SFO). I figured Airbus wo
140 Poitin : This is why I suggested Boeing make the 748-SP available as soon as EK signed for 45 or so FIRM orders. You have hit the EK nail square on the head w
141 EbbUK : I am blown away by this announcement. It seems the first ones to buy the 380 know just how good the plane is and are determined to keep the competitio
142 Osiris30 : The 748 has a good resale value potential because they make great freighters. Bear in mind with all the hooting and hollering that goes on a.net that
143 EbbUK : My understanding however is that pax to freighter conversions happen a lot later than most potential pax customers would like. i.e a 12 yr old BA 748
144 Post contains images Scbriml : Er, isn't that what QF has just done? Then there's China Southern in Jan 2005. Etihad's firm order may also fall within the last two years - the MOU
145 Post contains images HB88 : For once I agree on your assessment on the distraction theory of the 380. Yes, the 380 delays are causing significant damage to the financial state o
146 Post contains images Stitch : And yet they tell Boeing they want a smaller plane with greater range. I guess next they'll tell Airbus to build the A380R - less length and longer r
147 Post contains images PanAm_DC10 : Stitch, Again, with the respect your posts deserve, I am aware of the definition of the statement you made, which leads to; Exactly that, which you h
148 ANstar : I think 20 Aircraft would only just cover all the LAX/LHR routes, so I doubt we'll see an A380 at NRT, FRA etc
149 Warreng24 : Sorry, I couldn't find this in a search, but with winds... can does the A380 have the range to do the LAX/SFO to SYD?
150 Post contains images Stitch : It was expected/required to. That QF ordered more leads me to believe that Airbus has proven it will, even though it has yet to fly in a QF config.
151 Zvezda : Exercising an option constitutes placing a firm order. I cannot imagine any airline buying an airliner just to keep their competitors from getting th
152 BoeingBus : The additional order is not because Qantas and SQ are so content how things are going. The A380 is delayed and this additional order is part of a com
153 Post contains images PanAm_DC10 : If Boeing has gone for the lengthened frame of the 748-F one needs to consider that the longer upper deck of the 748i may impede the conversion poten
154 Dougloid : I think everyone's missing the point here. After the last month's parade of bad news, what did Airbus need more than anything else for the A380 progr
155 Gemuser : True, but it is carrying more payload then a B744ER can on the same routes. If it had fallen short, this order would never have happened. Gemuser
156 Post contains images Stitch : If Arpey's statements were to be taken at face-value, AA wanted the first three years of Sonic Cruiser production to keep it out of the hands of comp
157 Trex8 : but the bird must have some good points going for it, if you ordered a car which was going to be late for delivery and its also a dog, would you orde
158 ZKNEA : Any idea on this new route? DXB perhaps? Or would QF accept that Australia - DXB has already been handed to EK and try elsewhere?
159 EbbUK : The question mark is the middle 15yr stint. If no one wants the plane, who can they sell it to? A 15yr old palne is too pricey for the freighter mark
160 Post contains links Leelaw : "We have negotiated an attractive 'package" to firm up an additional eight A380s," Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon said in a statement... ...Dixon
161 JAL : Qantas must surely have gotten a great deal on those additional A380s!
162 RJ111 : If it's exersising options then the finances should be predefined. The A330s may have made the deal sweet, but Airbus hasn't exactly got much to lose
163 Post contains images Stitch : I evidently was not clear enough. The same airline would operate the plane as a 748 and then as a 748BCF. So say LH buys a 748I. They'd fly it for 15
164 Post contains images ShowerOfSparks : I guess break even for the A380 has just been pushed out to about 430 airframes.
165 EbbUK : Yes but LH Cargo would want a discount to at least market rate for freighters. If LH does that deal, it loses value on the 748. So why buy it?
166 Post contains images Zvezda : Airbus did this deal because they expect it to be more profitable than not doing the deal. The option exercise, taken alone, is surely projected to b
167 Post contains images Osiris30 : Those were conversion of previous options. Not 'new' orders [edit you're right they are new orders, but not new sales and certainly not orders at wha
168 Stitch : They make enough money operating it as a pax plane and a freighter it's worth the premium they charge themselves to transfer the frame between busine
169 Post contains images Osiris30 : Cheaper than buying 380s for PAX and 748F for LH Cargo brand new
170 EbbUK : So you mean that VS don't want the 380 but don't have a "walk away" clause in their contract so in order not to lose their deposit they defer their o
171 Zvezda : You're free to look at it however you want and I don't want to argue semantics, but it will be accounted for as a new order by accountants following
172 Osiris30 : I don't want to either, and am unfortunately getting caught in one of those arguments (my own stupid fault.. I should have just said sales rather tha
173 PanAm_DC10 : Which was why I referenced it as an LoI until otherwise firmed That is not a point that I have stated, refuted or in fact made an opinion on sir. Yes
174 EbbUK : Your points are noted and only time will tell.
175 Osiris30 : I won't get snitty here, but honestly, why did you include them when you've been so keen to point out that my statement about ORDERS was factually (a
176 Zvezda : As I've posted previously, I have not seen the VS WhaleJet contract. It is my expectation (because that is how these deferals nearly always play out)
177 Post contains links DEVILFISH : Which might be better odds than PR's Chairman getting his A380 wish. I think Airbus had finally upped and adopted the pompous "Flying Palace" title -
178 Kaneporta1 : Considering that at the moment, the A380 is in its own category in terms of pax/range combination, not much further development needs to be done on i
179 Ken777 : So they take money from their right pocket and put in their left - plus take a "loss" in the right pocket, resulting in reduced income tax, which goe
180 Osiris30 : VLA is typically considered as 450+ pax, which the 748I falls into. Battle is a bit much of a word which is why I put it in quotes LOL.. maybe sqirmi
181 Zvezda : Airbus have repeatedly said that the WhaleJet would take marketshare from the JumboJet. Many airlines have considered ordering one or the other. If t
182 RJ111 : I could see how analysing sales of an aircraft which is unproven in service, over what will most probably be the most difficult 2 years of its life s
183 Osiris30 : RJ111: LOL.... The 747 hasn't exactly been tearing the arse out of the market with sales either. And that's not in the 2 most difficult years of it's
184 DAYflyer : They only need what, another 300 or so to breakeven? That should happen around 2015 or so at the current pace of sales.
185 Post contains images Mariner : I guess I'm just old fashioned. I didn't realise that aviation/airline enthusiasts needed to be intimately concerned with the profit and loss statemen
186 Osiris30 : Unfortunately that's more true than you might realise.. some great planes have effectively killed the companies that made them (or driven them out of
187 Mariner : No. I realize exactly what I wrote. It is the point of what I wrote. ??? mariner
188 Galapagapop : Not a suprise, any airline wanting to pull the plug must be in an extreme time crunch or just plain stupid. The plane is meeting most targets and shou
189 BoomBoom : Why do these threads always have to end up being about you?
190 JayinKitsap : QF exercised 8 options, generally options include a given price for the frame or a price schedule depending on when ordered. Possibly QF was nearing a
191 Post contains images Mariner : Oh, gosh - I guess you didn't read the post that provoked it. Oh, well. Horses to water. mariner
192 Post contains images Baroque : Steady there Antares, this is Geoff Dixon not Jeff Kennett (recent Premier of Victoria famous for hard dealing when in Government), I doubt if being
193 WingedMigrator : Hi Zvezda, what is your rough estimate of the development costs of the A389 or A388R, given that the stronger wing, center fuel tank, beefed up landi
194 Dougloid : That's spreading the orders over years that there was little or no activity and then trying to use that to justify your argument. If you take a look
195 Ikramerica : People in this thread are funny. Here's the Airbus A380 summer: Large delay SIA orders 9 more A380s, but hasn't signed yet Larger delay Break even pus
196 Osiris30 : I posted those numbers as they were the least likely to get me flames again on this thread. They are valid and factual. Sure I could have showed a tr
197 Zvezda : I apologize for my lack of specificity. I was referring to $12.5B as an understatement of development costs. Part, though mostly likely not all, of t
198 Manni : UPS signed for their aircraft in januari 2005. Additionally Korean Air and if IIRC Etihad signed for their A380s within the last 24 months. Add anoth
199 Zvezda : No sleight of hand there. Airbus claim that the RoI on 750 sales would be 13% rather than 19% due to the delays, cost overruns, compensation to airli
200 Johnny : @ Zvezda, the "normal" A388 has a range of more than 15000Km with 550 pax. The A388R would have around 17000km again with 550 PAX. Assuming 400PAX wou
201 Columba : You are right. It is good news for Airbus. Despite all the struggle they have and despite all the anger Qantas was facing due to the delay of its air
202 Zvezda : Johnny, the B777-200LR, with the cabin interior configuration in which QF were interested in using for nonstop SYD/MEL-LHR, has a still-air range of 9
203 Post contains images Zvezda : All true. This means Airbus will not lose as much on the program as they otherwise would have.
204 Johnny : @ Zvezda The main Problem of the B777-200LR and A350-900 or A340-500 is that they only carry 200PAX. The flights from and to Austalia are well booked
205 Post contains images Zvezda : You've got that backwards. That is their advantage. There are about 100 passengers a day willing to pay very, very high fares for a nonstop. There ar
206 Ikramerica : We are talking about a customer who has committed money and their future plans to the A380 and is only following through. I've also asked that you be
207 Gemuser : QF do NOT want a premimum fare machine. They want a machine that will allow them to carry their total Europe bound pax non stop, making at least a mu
208 Zvezda : That is not even theoretically possible. Any airliner with 10,000nm range will have a higher CASM than a comparable airliner with 7000nm range that m
209 Johnny : @ Gemuser QF do NOT want a premimum fare machine. They want a machine that will allow them to carry their total Europe bound pax non stop, making at l
210 Ikramerica : There is, Z. Here's what Airbus has done: They had a business model 2 years ago that said 270 for break even, and 750 sales can be expected in 20 yea
211 Post contains images Keesje : I think Airbus is basing it´s market forecast on demand. Boeing, Airbus, GE and RR in their market outlook foresee a nearly trippling of traffic and
212 JayinKitsap : This assumes that all 744 replacements are 380's and the 748 has a null share. The 380 might get the lions share of the VLA but 90% or higher would b
213 Vfw614 : Unless a post by Johnny has already been deleted and all that gets you so excited is being called ignorant, you must be seriously joking and clearly
214 Post contains images Johnny : @ Vfw614 Thanks for your support!
215 Gemuser : So? It's what they want! BTW that's exactley what they said about the B74L. But then the B744 & B744ER came along!!! Gemuser
216 EbbUK : He didn't call you anything. Neither was he abusive. Me thinks it's way past your bedtime. You always become cantakerous at this hour, it seems to be
217 Post contains images Zvezda : No, I didn't forget that. It is a factor but it is overwhelmed by higher fuel costs and higher flight crew costs. Let's be clear: They were saying 0%
218 Brendows : I wouldn't be to sure about that... As the A359R is today, its range @ normal payload will (most likely) be shorter than the range of the A345HGW.
219 Joni : Looking at the specs on Airbus' website, it does say that 555 pax is "typical" and 15000km is the range with "max" passengers (refers perhaps to the
220 Stitch : Plus the stop-overs are what, two hours? Three? Out of an 18 or so hour flight? So a A388R/772LR could make one extra round-trip a week? I don't see
221 Post contains images Jacobin777 : Maybe he writes in what he believes, regardless of the plane manufacturer...
222 Ken777 : One only has to look at the Sonic Cruiser to see that fare premiums are not a given. The SC was of great interest to airlines because they were in th
223 Osiris30 : Why is it when you don't like the arguement someone presents you feel you need to start attacking them. Is it because you have nothing better to offe
224 Johnny : @Ken777 "Quoting Johnny (Reply 209): QF do NOT want a premimum fare machine. They want a machine that will allow them to carry their total Europe boun
225 Keesje : In 2020 I see GENX mark II / Trent 1200 powered A380-900ERs over the oceans with 4-5 classes 600-850 offering people onboard anything inbetween priva
226 Khobar : Boeing forcast for "Large Airplanes" (400 seats +) = 990 total deliveries and includes A380's, 744's/748's, and freighters. Airbus "Large Aircraft" (
227 Osiris30 : You're also assuming there that a Y3 doesn't show up in 10 years and eat the 380s lunch. Not saying it will happen, but as they say, the time to make
228 Stitch : Nope. I figured Boeing's was just passenger airliners. So their numbers make more sense when adding in the freighter sales.
229 Ken777 : Sorry, Gemuser did. I did a "Quote Selected Text" in your response which popped you name up. The challenge will be to fill the seats on a continual b
230 Stitch : Depends on scheduling and aircraft availability, I imagine.
231 RJ111 : The board will aprove it if they think it will benefit the A380 financially, regardless of what the A388 is doing. There's no point cutting off your
232 Birdbrainz : You'd think that with all the delays and headaches, airlines would decide that the A380 is more trouble than it's worth. And yet, QF and SQ are orderi
233 Stitch : QF and SQ are already committed to it and have based their future high-traffic long-haul operations around it. Since it doesn't appear the plane is a
234 Osiris30 : And just when do you suggest the board authorizes the 4-5B$ that would be needed to make the plane that Keesje was referring to? Surely not before 20
235 Post contains images Keesje : I think they would fly the A380. It not so easy to swap aircraft, think of crew etc. Airlines are pretty good at filling up aircraft these days anywa
236 Osiris30 : Based on what you listed, for range, pax, etc., the current MTOW is likely to be insufficient.. you want new engines which means new mounts on the wi
237 Jacobin777 : but growth is slowing.. "(GENEVA) The International Air Transport Association (IATA) reported 4.8% year-on-year growth in international passenger tra
238 RJ111 : Well i was just thinking the A389 in general. Not Keesje's hypothosis, which he stated was in 2020, not 2010. The -900 won't cost anywhere near $5b.
239 Dougloid : Ah, but if there is an A380 at the gate and 500 people show up with a reasonable amount of luggage that Singapore (for example) plans for for a long
240 Post contains images Zvezda : It sure looks that way. SQ are so committed to the WhaleJet, they have adopted new business class seats that don't fit in the Jumbo. They will fit 1-
241 Post contains images Astuteman : One out of two ain't bad. The 787 certainly looks good value in it's class at list prices, but the A380 looks a steal against the 748i, given that th
242 Zvezda : Passengers are often offloaded to make way for high-value freight.
243 Stitch : I expect it is a combination of airlines: Waiting for the A380 to EIS with customers so they can see how it performs in revenue service (dispatch iss
244 Baroque : Interesting point. Presumably that might feed through into maintenance costs? So far there does seem to be something about the 748i that does not app
245 Post contains images NAV20 : Not quite, Baroque - just that it was (and is) only selling half as well as the 737. The more important feature of the situation is that none of Airb
246 Post contains links Jacobin777 : Uh oh..another possible 3 month delay coming up... "However, Airbus insiders speaking to ATWOnline suggest that another delay of up to three months is
247 Post contains images NAV20 : Knowing Geoff Dixon by reputation, you can safely bet your boots that he has Airbus well pinned down about yet MORE delays (probably on some sort of
248 Ikramerica : Deleted. Not worth the effort. Moderators took care of it.[Edited 2006-10-31 07:43:18]
249 Post contains images WingedMigrator : Did you resile from your earlier view that the A320 had stopped selling?
250 NAV20 : Don't have to, WingedMigrator, because it's not my view. It just isn't selling nearly as well as the 737.
251 WingedMigrator : Good enough, Nav... I couldn't resist a little ribbing. Back on topic, could you refer me to your analysis for why Airbus should pull the plug on the
252 Ikramerica : deleted. taken care of by moderators. thanks.[Edited 2006-10-31 07:45:33]
253 Ikramerica : His post was removed. I'll let that action speak for itself. Have a nice night.
254 Post contains images Zvezda : Could that be caused by the freeing of slots from the VS cancellation? You're basing that on an interval that provides a data set too small to be sta
255 Ikramerica : Last year, it looked as if the A320 had passed the 737NG. This year, all of a sudden, the A320 has caught up when you look at pending orders that the
256 Zvezda : I just did a more detailed analysis. The new SQ business class seat would fit on the maindeck of the B747-8I SuperJumbo in a 1-1-2-1 configuration wi
257 Post contains images Scbriml : For a few months this year, get back to us at the end of the year. Then factor in 2005's numbers for a two-year total and see what you get.
258 Joni : We had a similar-vein discussion on why the first version A350 appeared to cost (and weigh) more than the B787, and the point does make some sense. n
259 Post contains images Zvezda : I've seen it both ways, depending on what is more valuable. I'm sure policy varies from airline to airline. Specifically, I've seen VDB calls with se
260 Scbriml : Airbus currently has over 300 mid-sized on backlog, with quite a few A330 (and even A340!) comittments not yet firmed up. At their maximum production
261 Zvezda : Now Airbus need to offer an A330E with adapted B787 engines to carry the day until the A350 enters production. That should serve as the basis for the
262 Keesje : Airbus has said for a long time they expect 2 orders per year for the next few years. The A380 will be certidfied soon. Gruadually new orders come in
263 Post contains images NAV20 : Cheers, WingedMigrator. To put it as simply and shortly as possible, EADS' own profit (or LACK of profit) forecasts indicate that the A380 will cost
264 RichardPrice : I dont see how you have convinced yourself it would be cheaper in any way shape or form for Airbus to cancel production of an airliner after a $15bil
265 Post contains images Baroque : Just making sure that the recent snows of Tasmania had not got you in their frozen grasp! I have to confess that I deliberately extended what Nav had
266 Post contains images Joni : What is a VDB call? And for that matter, what's an "aisle seat window"
267 Post contains images Baroque : My suggestion Richard is that you just file it in the same file as RLI cross referenced to free money, and if you liked HH G2tGalaxy under Slartybart
268 Stitch : Voluntarily Denied Boarding. When the airline offers compensation to passengers to not take their scheduled flight. Differs from an IDB - Involuntari
269 Post contains images Zvezda : I expect most of those 100 "old all-new" A350 orders to be converted to A330E orders. As you point out, it would be extremely expensive to cancel the
270 Post contains links NYC777 : According to ATW there may be another delay on the A380 of three months!!! http://atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=6932 At least it's not another
271 Jacobin777 : I have mixed views on that..while from a fiscal point of view, I think it wouldn't be a bad decision..however, 1)Airbus would lose all credibility 2)
272 Post contains images Dougloid : Joni, I have it from a gentleman in the country of unimpeachable authority that Zvezda not only is Randy Baseler in drag, he is also in the pay of th
273 Scbriml : You may be sure, but none has yet been canx and some could convert to A330s. Which EK says another customer has taken. Add in the A330F when they fin
274 Zvezda : If Airbus were to minimally update the A330 with adapted B787 engines (for less than $500K in development/certification costs) then I believe all or
275 RichardPrice : Full circle. That design got derided when it was proposed, and now we come back to people thinking its a good alternative.
276 Zvezda : It's a good interim solution. It's not a good long-term solution. The low development cost minimizes the risk. Just like the B747-8 SuperJumbo.
277 Leelaw : Probably because this time it wouldn't be the only proposed response to the 787.
278 Post contains images Astuteman : Just to get some perspective on that, NAV20, the number of frames due to be delivered up to the end of 2009 is 39. At least 15 of these are already c
279 Post contains images Stitch : It's called "making lemonade from lemons". And like the 764ER program for Boeing, an A330E program would keep many Airbus operators "in the family" a
280 Rheinbote : Okay, I have checked back. These prices are engines INCLUDED, but BFE stuff may not be fully covered. I admit that's quite unbelievable, but both A a
281 Post contains images Keesje : Well approaching 300 post I must conclude that for some reason the aversion against the A380 goes very deep with some members. They again managed to t
282 Dougloid : Evil Aboulafia! Gellman! It is all his fault! Boosh! Harper! Evil Americans!
283 Osiris30 : The same way others turn negative news into positive Airbus news, so I guess it washes out huh Keesje? People will debate.. the fact that there are s
284 Post contains images NAV20 : No need to shout, mate . Of course I agree that they've already spent a lot of money. But that's the worst reason of all for 'throwing good money aft
285 Post contains images Astuteman : PARDON? I CAN'T HEAR YOU! Don't disagree, but in this case, if the intention is to reduce the prospect of further losses, that opportunity has alread
286 Post contains images Baroque : How do you know he was shouting at you Nav? Some of us are getting a bit deficient in the audio department and welcome these little prompts. Besides
287 Joni : Zvezda, you didn't answer my question; do you work for Boeing? This kind of spelling and terminology IMO reminds one of a certain poster here who wor
288 Post contains images Stitch : I don't recall seeing him in the cafeteria. Yet FY's policy is FY's policy. It is not UA's nor SQ's nor LH's nor anyone elses. So what Zvezda saw on
289 NAV20 : Maybe because he was quoting me, Baroque? In any case, if I am allowed to exercise the incurable 'sense of humour' infection that I picked up living
290 Post contains images Zvezda : I apologize. I didn't realize it was meant as a serious question. I do not now, nor have I ever, worked for Boeing. Nor has any member of my known fa
291 NAV20 : Must admit to two strongly-held opinions:- 1. It has honestly never occurred to me that Zvezda, or any other A.netter contrbuting to what is basicall
292 Zvezda : That's why I didn't take Joni's question seriously. Thanks for explaining NAV20.
293 Baroque : Ah but they sink with great panache and once sunk, they really fly! Actually you need to worry a bit more when the buggers have sunk than when you ca
294 NAV20 : Which is exactly why I was happy to base my mercifully-brief service career on 'two feet on the ground,' Baroque. I found both aeroplanes and boats t
295 Post contains images Astuteman : Good Question Pretty much a good answer. You're right insofar as none of our opinions on A-net matter a sh*te as far as influencing the events in the
296 Post contains images Shenzhen : Not to be picky, but 500K probably wouldn't even pay for the sales teams to travel to potential customers and pitch a new A330 with adapted B787 engi
297 Post contains images Zvezda : Of course, you're correct. I meant $500M. Could be. It was a ballpark guess. Anyway, the engines from the B747-8 might be fine too. They're smaller.
298 Shenzhen : If the GenX diameter for the 747 is smaller then the GP7200, then it could be ok. From my understanding, the A330 would have the same issue with the G
299 Zvezda : I don't have information on nacelle diameters, but the GEnx for the B747-8 has a 104" fan, the GEnx for the B787 has a 111" fan, the T1000 has a 112"
300 Shenzhen : To add to your fan diameters, I found the diamter of the GP7200 to be 124 inches, the C6-80C2(747-4) to be 106 inches and the C6-80E1 (A330) to be 11
301 Astuteman : FWIW, when changing the A330 into the "old" A350, Airbus elected to increase the height of the nose gear by a couple of inches to ensure the underwin
302 Joni : Which airlines, and under what kind of circumstances were you told? Doesn't Singapore_Air work for SQ?
303 Post contains images Manni : I've never ever seen passengers being offloaded to make way for freight. And this is NOT based on observations as an occasional or frequent flyer. I
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