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AV's New Fleet #2  
User currently offline777jaah From Colombia, joined Jan 2006, 1403 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4308 times:

Hi all,

I know this has been discussed and no official word has come yet, and since BONGOs original thread was locked, I wanted to share a few inside information I just got:

Seems that the long haul deal went to Boeing. We'll see 787s in white and red. But for the single aisle order, Airbus got the order from Efromovich. Although it was a bit surprising for me to split the order, it seems that financially was the best option, specially all the dscounts received from Airbus after they were ruled out in the long haul portion of it.

My source is pretty confident an announcement willbe made soon enough, but until that day, things may change. I know this is not as SOLID as we all wanted to be, but i trust this guy and he has given me good info in the past, and I wanted to share with everyone around here.

Cheers


JAAH


Original thread by BONGO:

RE: This Is The New Fleet For Avianca! (by Avianca Aug 28 2006 in Civil Aviation)?


Next flights: AV BOG-ADZ-BOG, AV-UA BOG-IAD-ORD-IAD-BOG, BOG-FLL-BOG, LA BOG-MIA-BOG J
39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRICARIZA From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2393 posts, RR: 26
Reply 1, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 4211 times:

Thanks 777Jaah,

It sounds very interesting, although a little weird taking into account Avianca's tradition for Boeing equipment, specially if they will keep buying it (787).

I know you trust your source, but I rather wait for the official statement before making any more comments!



I miss ACES, I am proud of AVIANCA & I am loyal to AMERICAN
User currently offlineJuventus From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 2835 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 4206 times:

I guess AV has had the 787 in its sights for a while. Did they ever considered the 777?

User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8503 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 4162 times:
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Avianca's NO first class, Business and Coach internationally, would produce a 777 with nearly 300 seats. 300 passengers is too many for Avianca on any of there big international destinations. Madrid, Miami, EZE, GRU and JFK are 150 - 200 passengers daily. 767 & 787 territory.

User currently offlineViasa From Switzerland, joined Jun 2005, 1898 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4121 times:

AV had phase-out two MD-83 and the next two will follow soon.

User currently offlineDanimarroquin From Colombia, joined Jan 2005, 450 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4094 times:

Quoting Viasa (Reply 4):

wich MD's ?.
well the 787 is the best option for AV , but the A320 ?
I heard before that the best option for Colombia was the 737 .


User currently offlineSumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2569 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4038 times:

Thank you J, I look forward to the official news, and trust that your source will be proved right.

Quoting Viasa (Reply 4):
AV had phase-out two MD-83 and the next two will follow soon

So where are they going? Are they being replaced by MD83s from a different source, or simply F100s used in its place?


User currently offlineRCS763AV From Colombia, joined Jun 2004, 4396 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3947 times:

Quoting Viasa (Reply 4):
AV had phase-out two MD-83 and the next two will follow soon.

Didndn´t see it coming, where did you get that info??? Why did they get two extra like a year ago? To dump them?? Maybe the F100s aren´t flying enough???

It would be a shame if AV ordered Airbus, the planes are just not suited for Colombian domestic routes. But if the airline wants to take the risk, it must have been a huge discount.


User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26150 posts, RR: 50
Reply 8, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3942 times:

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 7):
the planes are just not suited for Colombian domestic routes

How come?

The A32X series are well used around the globe in all types of diverse markets, such as India, Mexico, Turkey, South Africa, to even little tiny Himalayan land locked Kingdom of Bhutan.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offline777jaah From Colombia, joined Jan 2006, 1403 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3910 times:

Quoting RICARIZA (Reply 1):
I know you trust your source, but I rather wait for the official statement before making any more comments!

This issue has brought up so many rumours, that maybe until official word comes out, I have to agree with you Ricardo.

Quoting RICARIZA (Reply 1):
although a little weird taking into account Avianca's tradition for Boeing equipment

I know, but as RCS763AV, I might start to feel that the woird MEGADISCOUNT was in the deal.

On a personal note, I always hoped for a ALL Boeing order. Hopefully my source is wrong (he knows about numbers, not planes to be honest), so I'll keep my fingers crossed and maybe we'll see those beautiful 737NGs in red and white.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 7):
the planes are just not suited for Colombian domestic routes. But if the airline wants to take the risk, it must have been a huge discount.

Why?? beacuse of the VX experience with them?? I tend to agree that 320s were a little bit oversized for short haul ops like domestic colombian routes (among the important ones the longest one BOG-CTG?? San Andres not included of course), maybe the A318 will suit this well enough and leave some 320s for ops like UIO, CCS, PTY, LIM, etc.

Cheers


JAAH



Next flights: AV BOG-ADZ-BOG, AV-UA BOG-IAD-ORD-IAD-BOG, BOG-FLL-BOG, LA BOG-MIA-BOG J
User currently offlineViasa From Switzerland, joined Jun 2005, 1898 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3793 times:

N632CT and N190AN were retourned to the lessor. Sorry I dont remember the other two registration - but they will go back very soon.

User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 10007 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3762 times:

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 7):
the planes are just not suited for Colombian domestic routes.

I also don't understand this argument completely. Why is the A320 not suited for Colombian domestic. The A320 has proven itself and is equal to the 737 in both capacity and range and the A320 even has a wider fuselage giving you more cabin space.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 8):
The A32X series are well used around the globe in all types of diverse markets, such as India, Mexico, Turkey, South Africa, to even little tiny Himalayan land locked Kingdom of Bhutan.

 checkmark 

A388


User currently onlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5802 posts, RR: 47
Reply 12, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3716 times:

Ok when will AV make an official announcement?


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineSumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2569 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3713 times:

Quoting Viasa (Reply 10):
N632CT and N190AN were retourned to the lessor. Sorry I dont remember the other two registration - but they will go back very soon.

Thanks for this info. So I guess that after deciding to keep the F50s, AV decided to lose 4 MDs instead.. Oh well. I now wonder if the total number of F100s will stay at 10, or if any more maybe added..


User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8503 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3651 times:
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A320's for Avianca ? I have read on numerous ocasions, Domestic US airlines NW & US, having load restrictions on transcontinental flights with A320's. For 3 or 4 hour flight to Miami, no problem, better then the MD-83. For Bogota take-offs to EZE and GRU something has to give ? Could some one please evaluate the high altitude performance of teh A320.

User currently offline777jaah From Colombia, joined Jan 2006, 1403 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3614 times:

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 14):
For Bogota take-offs to EZE and GRU something has to give ?

If you think well enough in this issue, you'll see that AV deploys 757 and 767s on these routes, son definetively A320s will not do the job that way. Maybe 787s for these routes replacing 767s. Even the BOG-MIA will need a bigger ac, doesn't matter distance, just cargo and pax loads will require a bigger bird. Just my 2 cents.


JAAH



Next flights: AV BOG-ADZ-BOG, AV-UA BOG-IAD-ORD-IAD-BOG, BOG-FLL-BOG, LA BOG-MIA-BOG J
User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 10007 posts, RR: 15
Reply 16, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3560 times:

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 14):
For Bogota take-offs to EZE and GRU something has to give ?

I don't understand why this route is given as an example for the A320. Does AV currently use the MD83 on this route? No. AV uses the 757/767 on these routes, in other words they will eventually use the 787 on this route once this happens. So no need to say that the A320 will not perform well on these routes as AV simply won't use this aircraft to GRU/EZE anyway. The A320 in AV's case will most likely replace the MD83 routes, not the 757 or 767 routes. 777jaah is right in this case. As mentioned before the A320 is a perfectly capable aircraft in its class as it used around the world by numerous airlines just like the 737 is.

A388


User currently offlineSumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2569 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3542 times:

Quoting A388 (Reply 16):
As mentioned before the A320 is a perfectly capable aircraft in its class as it used around the world by numerous airlines just like the 737 is.

I think that AV can do well with the A320 family. The performance issues mentioned before and that were suffered by Aces had to do with cooling time of brakes that imposed restrictions on turnarounds. They could not do the 25 minute that MD83s do. A320s on MIA would be fine, and since the F100s are there, domestic operations can be shuffled appropriately.
It may also be that Airbus offers a better product now. Materials improve all the time.


User currently offlineRCS763AV From Colombia, joined Jun 2004, 4396 posts, RR: 12
Reply 18, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3483 times:

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 8):
The A32X series are well used around the globe in all types of diverse markets

One of those being Colombia, and the experience was not nice. They are too costly to operate as they need very large turnaround times (the luggage has to go into pallets and then loaded to the aircraft by machine as the cargo door is too high, the brakes need 40 minutes to cool down, etc.), while an MD-83 or a 737 can be turned around in a much shoter time. If the plane does a 30 minute flight BOG-PEI and stays in PEI for 45 minutes and then returns, is that efficient? No.

This has been discussed a hundred times by the Colombian users actually, maybe its just rumours but the 320s took big blame in the VX failure. (i don´t have anything against the A320, in fact in think it looks nicer than the 737)


User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 10007 posts, RR: 15
Reply 19, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3441 times:

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 18):
One of those being Colombia, and the experience was not nice. They are too costly to operate as they need very large turnaround times (the luggage has to go into pallets and then loaded to the aircraft by machine as the cargo door is too high, the brakes need 40 minutes to cool down, etc.), while an MD-83 or a 737 can be turned around in a much shoter time. If the plane does a 30 minute flight BOG-PEI and stays in PEI for 45 minutes and then returns, is that efficient? No.

This has been discussed a hundred times by the Colombian users actually, maybe its just rumours but the 320s took big blame in the VX failure. (i don´t have anything against the A320, in fact in think it looks nicer than the 737)

Having palletised cargo holds makes the aircraft handling faster as it allows you to load all the luggage onto the aircraft much faster as they are loaded as ULD's so to speak instead of loading each luggage one by one. Of course you will need time to load the luggage onto the ULD's but this shouldn't be that much of a problem/time consuming. One advantage of the A320 is the ability to load the cargo and luggage on ULD's. It allows a better cargo throughput. Saying that the A320 needs very large turnaround times is also not entirely true. Look at all the airlines who operate the A320 very succesfully including low cost carriers who work with the lowest turnaround times. How come Colombian airlines have difficulty in turning an A320 around? What factors played a roll here, I am very interested to be able to better understand the situation.

As for the brake temperature needing more time to cool off, I don't have more insight in that so you might well be right on that. However, saying that the failure of an airline is mostly blamed on an aircraft I find that very hard to believe. I have never heard of an airline collapsing mainly because of the aircraft type used. That would be too far fetched.

A388


User currently offlineAviopic From Netherlands, joined Mar 2004, 2681 posts, RR: 41
Reply 20, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3410 times:

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 13):
I now wonder if the total number of F100s will stay at 10, or if any more maybe added.

Synergy took another 6 but I don't know what their livery will be, Avianca, OceanAir or Wayra Peru.



The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
User currently offlineSumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2569 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3382 times:

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 20):
Synergy took another 6 but I don't know what their livery will be, Avianca, OceanAir or Wayra Peru.

6 on top of the original 29?
That is interesting news. It may fit with Mr Efromovich's announcement that 6 more F100s would join OceanAir. I understand that they have 11 at the moment. Avianca's 10 and Wayra's 5 make 32. So there should be another 3.
Wikipedia lists 13 F100s for Avianca rather than 10. Maybe that's where those 3 are to be found..


User currently offlineAviopic From Netherlands, joined Mar 2004, 2681 posts, RR: 41
Reply 22, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3350 times:

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 21):
Wikipedia lists 13 F100s

Not exactly a reliable source  Smile

At this moment our own fleetlist mentions 10 for Avianca.
CN - REG
11449 HK4445
11457 HK4419
11458 HK4444
11464 HK4451
11465 HK4430
11469 HK4437
11479 HK4443
11482 HK4420
11506 HK4431
11514 HK4438

No news about additions for them.



The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
User currently offline757MDE From Colombia, joined Sep 2004, 1753 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3310 times:

Isn't there any temptative date for an official announcement?
I'd wish they went with the 737, but I guess the A320 is alright as well.



I gladly accept donations to pay for flight hours! This thing draws man...
User currently offlineSOUTHAMERICA From Colombia, joined Dec 2003, 2497 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3271 times:

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 18):
If the plane does a 30 minute flight BOG-PEI and stays in PEI for 45 minutes and then returns, is that efficient? No.

Chances are that this time the A320s won't be serving such extremely short routes, at least not while the F-100s are here. To be honest, I'd be shocked to see them go ahead with the same mistakes that led ACES to bankrupcy. I doubt it.

Anyway, the case with ACES was also supported by the fact that the leasing costs for all their fleet [not only the A320's] were very high. I don't think it's fair to completely rule out the A320's from Colombia simply because they didn't succeed with ACES.



SOUTHAMERICA


25 Post contains images A388 : A388
26 RCS763AV : Well, the high leasing costs and the inefficient operation of the A320s were the trigger of VX´s downfall, remember that in a smalle scale, this sma
27 777jaah : The thing with those lease agreements (A320s) was that it was done in euros, and all no protection against it was taken by VX. In 2002, the euro skyr
28 Bongo : I still don´t think they´ll go with a mix of B and A... seems to be a better deal if they only go with B... Of course I´m not against A, but the be
29 777jaah : I think it was locked. Just for respect to you, when I opened this thread, I posted the link for yours. JAAH
30 Post contains images Bongo : 777jaah: yes, you are right, my question is just for the mods...they usually do things that we really don´t know why...so my question is for them: Wh
31 Post contains images RICARIZA : You beat me to this one.. Exactly, the currency of the agreement was the problem.
32 AMSSFO : 3 were originally for VIP but they were not taken up. According to ATDB (http://www.aerotransport.org) they will indeed be delivered to AV: 11467 ex
33 757MDE : I don't remember how old is your post but I think when a post reaches certain amount of time without being replied to it auto-locks itself. I may be
34 SOUTHAMERICA : I hope you guys are aware that ACES was also paying for the ATR-42s almost double the monthly cost that Avianca was paying for their Fokker-50's. Thi
35 Post contains images Aviopic : Yeeh....... are we that cheap ? I'll tell the boss to increase to price somewhat
36 Post contains images RICARIZA : Without a doubt... hehe, I will call you "right and competitively priced" instead..
37 Post contains images Avianca : now we now why original Fokker went bankrupt...
38 Jfk777 : When is this BIG annoucement going to be made, A320 or 737NG, its become like a wait to see when Fidel Castro is dying, we know its going to happen bu
39 777jaah : I know the financial issues of VX from my job, sorry I can't disclose details for legal reasons. I'm sure VX went down for their poor financial plann
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