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Airbus Won't Confirm EK A346 Cancellations  
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 1 month 1 day ago) and read 8633 times:

Airbus won't confirm cancellations, unperturbed by outside auditors


PARIS Airbus said Monday that a visit by Emirates Airlines to check on A380 production plants is simply a follow-up on a promise of transparency to customers of the superjumbo made by former CEO Christian Streiff.

The European planemaker said it was not aware that Dubai's Emirates Airlines, the biggest customer of the A380, was canceling an order for 10 A340-600 jetliners, as reported Sunday on The Wall Street Journal Web site.

As to the visit to Toulouse by auditors to assess the planemaker's progress on building its A380 superjumbo — now two years behind schedule — Airbus was apparently unperturbed


http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/...ess/EU_FIN_COM_Airbus_Emirates.php

If Tim Clarke really has such bad feelings about Airbus as he continuously speaking about in the press, maybe EK should should just cancel their A380 to, or at least defer them for say 5-10 yrs. The contractual agreements have been broken, so no doubt there are options to bail out.



It is a free world, maybe some other carriers are willing to pick up the early delivery slots (Etihad, Qatar, QF, BA, CX, UA?) and they can make some profit to!

Boeing will more then likely be willing to offer 747-8i´s at a reasonable price, which are promised to become very good aircraft.

Maybe it the best thing for everybody that Tim just executes what he has been talking about a long time.

Perhaps the oil prices drop further & Emirates will have to make some changes anyway.



 cool 

71 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAirSpare From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 589 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (8 years 1 month 23 hours ago) and read 8589 times:

To bad B won't just tell Emirates "Cash, no discoints, their parked in Seattle, come and get them, goodbye. Some customers you don't want.

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
If Tim Clarke really has such bad feelings about Airbus as he continuously speaking about in the press, maybe EK should should just cancel their A380 to, or at least defer them for say 5-10 yrs. The contractual agreements have been broken, so no doubt there are options to bail out.

You don't really feel this way? EK crapped on B, they're doing the same to A, I'd like to see A and B tell them "Go buy some Tupolovs, adios".



Get someone else for your hero worship fetish
User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 1 month 23 hours ago) and read 8561 times:

Why would Airbus be hypersensitive to Mr. Clark's "trash talk" in the media, when Messrs Leahy and Forgeard introduced such techniques/practices to this industry, or at least raised it to an artform... Clark is merely following their shining example.  Yeah sure

User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 3, posted (8 years 1 month 23 hours ago) and read 8543 times:

It looks like Airbus have returned to the negotiations with a new offer.

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
If Tim Clarke really has such bad feelings about Airbus as he continuously speaking about in the press, maybe EK should should just cancel their A380 to, or at least defer them for say 5-10 yrs. The contractual agreements have been broken, so no doubt there are options to bail out.

Stranger things have happened, though I would be surprised if EK were to cancel all their WhaleJet orders. I expect them to take delivery of about half.


User currently offlineScouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3398 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (8 years 1 month 23 hours ago) and read 8545 times:

The way that it seemed to be worded was the EK had sold their slots for the A346 to someone else (EY, QR, VS) so to Ek they have cancelled and to AB they haven't. We'll see in the fullness of time though!

User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 5, posted (8 years 1 month 23 hours ago) and read 8460 times:

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 4):
The way that it seemed to be worded was the EK had sold their slots for the A346 to someone else

I missed that. To exactly which wording are you refering?


User currently offlineScouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3398 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (8 years 1 month 22 hours ago) and read 8277 times:

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 5):

I missed that. To exactly which wording are you refering?

Clark Says EK Has Cancelled A340 (by Lumberton Oct 27 2006 in Civil Aviation)

It states that Clark says they've cancelled but the planes will be taken up by another carrier - which implies that in effect they have sold their slots. Everyones happy - no cancellations on the AB balance sheet and EK can symbolically punish AB for the A380 delays.


User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12856 posts, RR: 25
Reply 7, posted (8 years 1 month 22 hours ago) and read 8236 times:

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 6):
Everyones happy

It's all in your point of view. In my point of view, Airbus just found out that there was a market for 10 planes that they could have sold directly, and also got a public trashing which they really don't need at this point in time. There's naught they can do about it, the customer is always right, but I doubt they are happy about it.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 1 month 22 hours ago) and read 8194 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 7):
the customer is always right



Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
The European planemaker said it was not aware that Dubai's Emirates Airlines, the biggest customer of the A380, was canceling an order for 10 A340-600 jetliners,

Well read between the lines. I looks to me like Airbus is getting moderately fed up with Clark & perhaps they sees better opportunities for some slots.


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 9, posted (8 years 1 month 22 hours ago) and read 8151 times:

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
Maybe it the best thing for everybody that Tim just executes what he has been talking about a long time.

Keesje, the hackneyed old phrase is, '"The customer is always right." Most people who have been involved in marketing would add, "Even if the stupid b*****d is talking out of his a**e......"

Unfortunately, given that EK's orders amount to over 30% of the entire A380 programme, Clark can say what he likes, and Airbus can only say, "Yes sir..."

My own feeling is that Tim Clark is under increasingly severe pressure from his bosses. The guys with those nasty curved scimitars tucked into their sashes. Not only did he bet the farm on the A380, he was a lot later than most people in seeing the potential of the 787.

He has somehow to 'win from here', or go under........



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 1 month 22 hours ago) and read 8123 times:

Quoting Keesje (Reply 8):
I looks to me like Airbus is getting moderately fed up with Clark & perhaps they sees better opportunities for some slots.

Baloney. As long as there's cash in Al-Maktoum's coffers, the OEMs will find a way to discreetly kiss their asses, despite the "abuse." You're so predictable Keesje, QF firms up some options and you want to be the "junk yard dog" on Mr. Leahy's used car lot.  Smile


User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 11, posted (8 years 1 month 21 hours ago) and read 7998 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 9):
My own feeling is that Tim Clark is under increasingly severe pressure from his bosses. The guys with those nasty curved scimitars tucked into their sashes. Not only did he bet the farm on the A380, he was a lot later than most people in seeing the potential of the 787.

 checkmark  It certainly appears that Clark's public statements are meant to be heard by his bosses.

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 10):
You're so predictable Keesje, QF firms up some options and you want to be the "junk yard dog" on Mr. Leahy's used car lot.

That's the funniest thing I've read on A.net in months.  bigthumbsup 


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 12, posted (8 years 1 month 21 hours ago) and read 7987 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 9):
He has somehow to 'win from here', or go under....

 checkmark 



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (8 years 1 month 21 hours ago) and read 7988 times:

Well, EK said they had cancelled them, it was all over the news. So whats all the fuss about?


One Nation Under God
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 1 month 21 hours ago) and read 7934 times:

Yeah, perhaps your are right & the QF order was just a unfortunate interruption of a clear trend..

http://english.people.com.cn/200610/30/eng20061030_316587.html


User currently offlineMptpa From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 546 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 1 month 21 hours ago) and read 7861 times:

I very much doubt EK will cancel all A380 they have ordered. They will squeeze Airbus into getting more concessions hence better unit price. If Airbus can sell those slots, saving money on late delivery fines.....

User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 16, posted (8 years 1 month 21 hours ago) and read 7861 times:

Quoting Keesje (Reply 14):
Yeah, perhaps your are right & the QF order was just a unfortunate interruption of a clear trend..

Geoff Dixon, on the face of it, is a much better operator than Clark. Yes, he's ordered a total of around 23 Airbuses - but he's balanced that with orders for 50 Boeings. Crucially, he acted in time to secure a VERY large number of early 787 slots. No-one can seriously question his business judgement, he looks to be 'fireproof.'

Compare that with Clark's position.........



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 1 month 21 hours ago) and read 7798 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 16):
Geoff Dixon, on the face of it, is a much better operator than Clark. Yes, he's ordered a total of around 23 Airbuses - but he's balanced that with orders for 50 Boeings. Crucially, he acted in time to secure a VERY large number of early 787 slots. No-one can seriously question his business judgement, he looks to be 'fireproof.'

Well he ordered some A330s earlier on too, but apart from that I'll agree in your preference for Dixon. However with his large commitment towards Boeing he might be as fireproof as the yet to fly 787..


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31261 posts, RR: 85
Reply 18, posted (8 years 1 month 21 hours ago) and read 7757 times:
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If EK has indeed found a new home for the A346's, they have to do so with Airbus' blessing if they don't want to be forced to take delivery in EK configuration and then sell them to another carrier and have that config ripped out and re-installed (unless the new folks plan to just keep the original config as RG and AI did with their UA 777s).

As to Mr. Clark's "tough talk" to both Airbus and Boeing, NAV20 may very well be spot-on. The A380 delays are putting a crimp in EK's immediate expansion plans yet their hemming-and-hawing on moving to the 787 or A350XWB is crimping their longer-term expansion plans by pushing EIS farther and farther back because they're order will be so large, neither manufacturer wants to commit to a design first just to lose the sale when the other modifies their's a bit more to better meet EK's needs.

Also, the A380's delays are pushing EIS closer and closer to the 747-8I, but I don't see Clark wanting to fly a dual-fleet. So he can now formally criticize the 747-8I stretch as being "too big", which deflects calls for him to order it in conjunction with - or in place of - the A380.

As noted, neither manufacturer can afford to tell EK to go jump into the Gulf. So they just have to "suck it up" and accept the sniping, knowing that the tens of billions in future orders will be pretty good salves for the verbal wounds inflicted upon them. Big grin


User currently offlineBoeingfever777 From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 409 posts, RR: 53
Reply 19, posted (8 years 1 month 18 hours ago) and read 6888 times:

I doubt Clark will cancel... If he did Boeing would need to launch the 787-10 and give them a sweet deal on 748i, 777's, and 787-10's.

Also who really gives a rat's a$$ what Clark says? He was promised something that was not delivered on. He also hold Airbus's balls in his hands as to he has like some 36.9% of the A380 passenger orders and losing his orders would be devastating to the program. So he can run his mouth all he wants and Airbus is/will take it w/o saying anything.

Still don't see him doing anything but collecting penalty money from Airbus and keeping his auditors at the plants.

Only time will tell what he does and if he takes all (43).



Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 20, posted (8 years 1 month 18 hours ago) and read 6809 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 16):

Geoff Dixon, on the face of it, is a much better operator than Clark. Yes, he's ordered a total of around 23 Airbuses - but he's balanced that with orders for 50 Boeings. Crucially, he acted in time to secure a VERY large number of early 787 slots. No-one can seriously question his business judgement, he looks to be 'fireproof.'

Actually, with EK ordering so many 777's...they should be ok..don't forget, neither the 787 nor the A350 (right now) will be able to put 10-abreast like EK does...

427 seat 77W...talk about cramming' them in..

Oddly enough, I've flown cattle class on EK's 777..and I would much rather have a 3-4-3 config with 34' seat pitch over a 3-3-3 with 31/32' seat pitch...


Cheers..

[Edited 2006-10-30 18:03:55]


"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 1 month 18 hours ago) and read 6775 times:

Do you think Airbus' reaction (starter) is very uhm .. understanding / downplaying?

User currently offlineSabenapilot From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 2724 posts, RR: 46
Reply 22, posted (8 years 1 month 18 hours ago) and read 6669 times:

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
If Tim Clarke really has such bad feelings about Airbus as he continuously speaking about in the press, maybe EK should should just cancel their A380 to, or at least defer them for say 5-10 yrs. The contractual agreements have been broken, so no doubt there are options to bail out.

Keesje has discovered the story line.

EK is indisputably running around very frustrated these days, but sadly they can't do much, apart from upping their rhetoric, since they need ALL of the A380s on order, so canceling any of them is not an option.

Yet as they still want to show Airbus just how fed up they are, Mr Clark has been venting a stream of negative comments in the media for some weeks now, and he had some initial success with it, but he'd better stop doing so now, because he has reached a point where he's not hurting Airbus any longer, but rather making a fool of himself:

'we've cancel our A340-600s'... reality is they are just shifting the order to a Dubai based leasing firm as will soon become apparent...

'the A380 is seriously overweight' hoping to cast a shadow of doubt over the program which has caused much of the frustration with Airbus at Dubai... yet only the next day QF surprised all outsiders by announcing it has ordered 8 more A380s as are happy with the demonstrated range-payload performance of the plane...

Tim Clark, the real bigmouth of aviation?


User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 1 month 18 hours ago) and read 6500 times:

From IHT article:

...As to the visit to Toulouse by auditors to assess the planemaker's progress on building its A380 superjumbo — now two years behind schedule — Airbus was apparently unperturbed.

It's "something agreed to at the time of Christian Streiff," said spokesman Justin Dubon. "He promised customers that they would be kept up to date ... and briefed on the progress of the A380."

The plan for updates was on a monthly basis, Dubon said, and "it's up to customers to come and see and investigate how they'd like to...."


I'm not sure what you find so earth shaking about Airbus's reaction to the "audit" aspect of the story which is old news anyway, FI first reported in detail about the "audit" two-weeks ago:

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...n+auditors+to+assess+new+A380.html


User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5796 posts, RR: 47
Reply 24, posted (8 years 1 month 17 hours ago) and read 6403 times:

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 22):
Tim Clark, the real bigmouth of aviation?

I wonder just what were you calling him when ordered 43 A380s?

Let's face it the A340 cancellation is a another black eye for Airbus that's why Airbus isn't going to say anything about EK's actions. They've had a lot of bad news this year and I guess the PR dempartment just doesn't want to exacerbate the situation.

EK it seems will be going with the 773ERs because they are in fact a better plane. EKs actions have demonstrated that, the order book of the 772LR/773ER vs the A345/A346 demonstrates that.



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
25 RedFlyer : Has Airbus EVER confirmed any cancellations? (I'm not asking rhetorically; I would genuinely like to know.)
26 Charger : Unfortunately Clark does have Airbus by the balls, but I think the key is if both A and B stick together and tell Clark straight out, this is our pro
27 Leelaw : When he was repeating the appropriate mantra from the Airbus Devotional, and breathlessly yearning for the A389 he was heralded as a prescient genius
28 Jacobin777 : Why does EK need "ALL" of the A380's..any particular reason?
29 Post contains links Sabenapilot : Quoting NYC777 (Reply 24): Let's face it: the A340 cancellation is a another black eye for Airbus that's why Airbus isn't going to say anything about
30 MEACEDAR : They get 2 billion dollars every day for the oil they pump. They have nothing better to do with the cash. Buying airplanes is like buying groceries a
31 PlaneHunter : Based on...? One of EK's main strategy is to build a strong hub at DXB - which requires both VLAs and B787/A350 sized aircraft. And don't forget the
32 Shenzhen : With the A340 orders, I wonder why Emirates didn't do something similar to both Qantas and SIA, meaning get some additional A330s on lease/purchase.
33 RJ111 : That sounds more like SV, not EK.
34 Post contains images Jacobin777 : I agree with you on that one.. ... Though I'm no longer sure if EK need all the A380's....actually, there is a possibility that EK might lease out a
35 BoomBoom : It could be argued he did that when he ordered the A380.
36 Post contains images UAL777UK : Why dont Airbus bite the bullet and announce the cancellation along with VS cancelling the 380, which IMHO they have done, not just deffered delivery
37 PlaneHunter : Please elaborate... PH
38 TeamAmerica : Hmm...as slots are opened don't they go to the next customer in line? All of the first 159 are delayed - I don't think the customers would appreciate
39 NYC777 : Look no airline executive worth his salt is going to cancel a loarge multi-billion order for aircraft at a time when they need capacity like EK does
40 Stitch : I am sure he wants all of them, but I'm not sure he needs all of them. There are other options, available in similar time frames (if not sooner) then
41 Vfw614 : Why would a seasoned airline executive publicly state that the Airbus A340-600 his airline has ordered does not perform as expected and the Airbus A38
42 Post contains images Stitch : If Boeing wanted to bend EK over the table on the 773ER, EK would take the 10 A346s. And I expect Airbus has been willing to reduce the price of the
43 Post contains images Zvezda : What good would that do? Who would benefit from trumpeting the VS cancellation other than a few Airbus bashers on A.net? VS and Airbus are following
44 Flying_727 : Why not? If it's the truth, I'm glad he said it. We need more people to be forward and quit beating around the bush because that gets nothing accompl
45 Zvezda : That would set a dangerous precedent. I suspect Airbus found different inducements to offer EK.
46 Poitin : It all depends on the twenty or so contracts the various airlines signed. If "time is of the essence" then slots would have to be doled out to curren
47 BoomBoom : The A380 is too much, too late. The 787 and A350 represent the future of air travel. The A380 is a dinosaur. Are you familiar with Zvezda's Law: A sm
48 PlaneHunter : Not entirely. Some of the world's premium airlines seem to disagree. That's a simplistic, general view which doesn't represent the needs of certain c
49 Post contains images Zvezda : But it's a damn cool dinosaur and I'm still looking forward to flying on one, even if it will cost Airbus a fortune. Hi JetMaster! Yes, there are som
50 Gbfra : Ah, so the B747-8I has finally been sold? To whom, btw?
51 M27 : I take it you are saying EK hasn't responded to incentives as well as QF and SQ yet?[Edited 2006-10-30 21:56:06]
52 Post contains images Keesje : I work for a big successful airline that is demand driven. The purchased fleetsize & composition is dimensioned on networkrequirements / developments
53 Stitch : Three have been sold to VIP customers this year.
54 Post contains images TeamAmerica : How did we proceed from A346 cancellations to Stonehenge?
55 Post contains images Glideslope : It should be obvious given the source.
56 Post contains images Glideslope : There is nothing Hard Fought with Landing rights. All you need is money and influence on the Appropriate Commissions/Agencys.
57 DTWAGENT : I hate to say this, but if Airbus pushs the A380 program back any more. I believe we will see some airlines canceling their orders and going over to b
58 EbbUK : When then can enough be enough? Does he think by bleating on about how much he is delayed is going to make his position stronger? Or better still get
59 Zvezda : Boeing are waiting on commitments from GE and RR for enough thrust to power a 560,000 lbs version that will offer 8000nm range. That's what EK and ot
60 Stitch : It's not all Airbus, but the A380 delays have hamstrung his traffic growth plans and are giving his competitors time to develop and employ counter-ac
61 Ken777 : They are in a great position as long as they can defer delivery on some of the 380s and as long as they have the economic power to order more planes
62 OldAeroGuy : What a unique way of describing the situation at EK relative to the A380. EK has based their fleet plan on the A380 and is the largest single custome
63 MEACEDAR : More than you have.
64 PlaneHunter : How do you know? Anyway, you don't know much about the UAE and Dubai in particular it seems... PH
65 MEACEDAR : I have flew to DXB about 18 times so far. So lets stop it right there.
66 Post contains images Stitch : Please. Or feel free to take it up in PM to each other.
67 Shenzhen : Once the contracts are signed, your negotiating power goes with it, unless you re-address issues in a new contract for new airplanes. Right now, Emir
68 PlaneHunter : Why? You still haven't delivered anything to back up your comment in reply 30: PH
69 Jacobin777 : Does that mean you know something about aviation business? If a patient goes to a hospital 18 times, does that mean the patient could get an MD degre
70 MEACEDAR : No, I have family over there so I go down there 4 or 5 times a year, for the last 4 years. Usually, MCO-JFK-DXB or sometimes I have to stop in Hambur
71 Jacobin777 : That's quite nice...however... Not to mention, since your family lives in DXB and you frequent Dubai, you should know that your comment was well off.
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