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Alitalia Takeover/Merger Thread  
User currently offlineNycfly75 From Italy, joined Aug 2005, 751 posts, RR: 10
Posted (7 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3885 times:

Considering there are 1 trillion stories a day about AZ's potential takeover partners, Im going to limit it to one thread being constantly updated instead of creating a different thread for every rumor or story that comes out.

After yesterday's interesting LH rumor, a story out today from ANSA says that talks with AF have especially picked late last week with meetings between AZ-AF in Paris and that if AZ merges with AF-KL, AZ would take the role of specializing in Mediterrenean, Eastern European and Middle Eastern Markets (but not exclusive to that) and that AZ would take on Airbus Aircraft.

Source:
http://www.ansa.it/infrastrutturetra...aspaereo/20061031102234095739.html


Like I said, I will keep all further rumors about AZ takeover in this thread until a definitive solution comes forward.

30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBicoastal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3887 times:

Quoting Nycfly75 (Thread starter):
I will keep all further rumors about AZ takeover in this thread

And you have absolute control over this HOW?


User currently offlineNycfly75 From Italy, joined Aug 2005, 751 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (7 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3867 times:

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 1):
And you have absolute control over this HOW?

The key word is I, not we, dsince Ive bene posting a lot of things about AZ, I speaking about what I will do.


User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7402 posts, RR: 57
Reply 3, posted (7 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3800 times:

Quoting Nycfly75 (Thread starter):
AZ would take the role of specializing in Mediterrenean, Eastern European and Middle Eastern Markets

Considering the position of AZ's hub in South Europe, all this sounds very logical ... but not very new : That is already supposed to be the role of AZ in SkyTeam ...

The problem are :
When will AZ be run as an Airline, not an Administration ?
When will AZ become viable and reliable ?
When will AZ's partner will be able to trust AZ and built a profitable plan and project of developpement ?
When will AZ's staff will realize that the world would continue to work very well, and maybe better, without AZ, even in Italy ?
When will an Italian Gov. will have enough balls to take the decisions that should have been taken 15 years ago ?
When will the Italian Political Saga/Mafia will stop interfere in AZ's interest (2 hubs in MXP & FCO , bla bla bla ) ?
When will AZ/Italian Gov. will start to clean their mess from "inside" before looking abroad for the salvation ?


User currently offlineComeAndGo From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1034 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3637 times:

Well well…

according to the weekly magazine Panorama the politicians want Alitalia to merge with Air One and link up with Lufthansa. They want Alitalia to buy 30 new A320s and 5 more long range aircraft. Re-introduce Milan - Los Angeles and Montreal but drop Washington DC and Dublin. They want to move the hub back to Rome but leave Milan in place at the same time. They're talking about, guess what, linking places like India with the US via Rome and keeping the originating flights in Milan. So in other words they want to turn Rome into a copycat Emirates operation. One politician talks about buying 20 more long range aircraft so that the aircraft mix would end up at long range aircraft being one fifth of the total fleet. They also want to re-introduce the old Rome - Milan shuttle flights every 20 minutes all day long. Because you know if you want anything done in Italy you have to go to Rome to talk to your bureaucrat. So the extra flights are welcome especially knowing that in 2 years time there's going to be a bullet train linking the two cities in just 3 hours travel time. I guess flying is still luxury for some.

The Air One linkup would resolve some issues between the two airlines namely: Volare and Sardinia rights.


http://www.panorama.it/economia/imprese/articolo/ix1-A020001038515

[Edited 2006-10-31 22:55:10]

User currently offlineMrPIBB From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3633 times:

Quoting Nycfly75 (Thread starter):
Im going to limit it to one thread being constantly updated instead of creating a different thread for every rumor or story that comes out.



Quoting Nycfly75 (Thread starter):
Like I said, I will keep all further rumors about AZ takeover in this thread until a definitive solution comes forward.

Get her!


User currently onlineBoysteve From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 932 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3612 times:

Quoting Nycfly75 (Thread starter):
AZ would take the role of specializing in Mediterrenean, Eastern European and Middle Eastern Markets (but not exclusive to that)

How would this work? Would AZ and KL have to stop any expansion in these regions and instead send any growth in paxs via MXP or FCO?


User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 7, posted (7 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3600 times:

The problem with the LH proposal is that it does not seem to have gotten the ears of LH..
There is no such report in the German media -other than a new (must be the tenth..) suggestion to merge Alitalia and Air China...!
This proposition seemingly came from Italy's finance minister -who might have different proposals depending on the day of the week!
It all becomes like spaghetti -very entangled ...

http://derstandard.at/?url=/?id=2640688



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineComeAndGo From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1034 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3570 times:

As you know the Italian political system is fragmented into hundreds of little parties, who all have access to their media outlets. So whatever you read in the paper is always totally confusing. That's because one party says one thing and the other has to oppose whatever the first said. So here we go, yesterday it was Lufthansa and now it is Air France again. Tomorrow it might just be Air China.

It seem though that the panorama article talks to the tune of those who are currently in power in Italy. And Cimoli certainly is not in control.


User currently offline797 From Venezuela, joined Aug 2005, 1891 posts, RR: 27
Reply 9, posted (7 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3548 times:

Well, good that we have sort of an official thread to discuss this developing matter...

Quoting Nycfly75 (Thread starter):
AZ would take the role of specializing in Mediterrenean, Eastern European and Middle Eastern Markets

Well, I could compare this to the AF-KL situation: KL used to fly to CCS until AF went over them. Now AF sends a daily 744 to backup all those traffic PAX. How would it be if AF takes over this popular AZ route?

I don't think I'd make much sense if AZ abbandoned their South American network. For a certain, I know CCS is one of AZ's most profitable routes, so I don't see why would they quit it in the hypotetical case AF takes over. That's a pretty strong market...

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 3):
When will AZ's staff will realize that the world would continue to work very well, and maybe better, without AZ, even in Italy ?

AZ is not only an airline. I'd qualify it as an Image that takes Italy all over the place. Look at the discussion that has been generated by their livery change: everyone knew the previous one!... So, the point is that AZ is more than just a crappy airline (not for me!)

Cheers

[Edited 2006-10-31 23:23:57]


Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous!
User currently offlineUAL777UK From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (7 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3541 times:

Quoting MrPIBB (Reply 5):
Get her!

 rotfl 


User currently offlineSemsem From Israel, joined Jul 2005, 1779 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (7 years 8 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 3414 times:

Why would anyone buy Alitalia? It would be financial suicide with all their employee problems.

User currently offlineBAW716 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2027 posts, RR: 27
Reply 12, posted (7 years 8 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 3387 times:

ComeandGo,
I find it really interesting that politicians in Italy are talking about all these grandious plans. This is the a large part of the problem with Alitalia; all these politicians getting involved in the airline. I made a rather long post about this before...so I won't repeat myself.

Suffice to say, there is much potential in Alitalia. There is also a huge morass for any potential merger partner. Until the Italian government gets completely out of the airline AND the labor laws change to not favor the unions over management, nothing will change. The Italian government will at some point be unable to put anymore money into Alitalia. At that moment, Alitalia, sadly, will cease to exist.

As for LH, why do they need AZ? They have plenty of access to Italy from both Germany, Austria and Switzerland. Air France has more to gain; but then we have the French government involved...messier still.

baw716



David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 13, posted (7 years 8 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 3382 times:

Quoting BAW716 (Reply 12):
but then we have the French government involved...messier still.

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineComeAndGo From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1034 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 8 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3331 times:

Quoting BAW716 (Reply 12):
As for LH, why do they need AZ? They have plenty of access to Italy from both Germany, Austria and Switzerland. Air France has more to gain; but then we have the French government involved...messier still.

It's not like Lufthansa has a choice (of course they could dump their Air One stock). Lufthansa owns an interest in Air One. Air One is Italian and in control is an Italian. So if this guy (pushed by the government or not) decides to merge with Alitalia, Lufthansa automatically becomes Alitalia's / Air One partner. Now, if the government gets it its way, Alitalia will be controlling Air One and Lufthansa will be partners with Alitalia.

The Italian government has the ability to design financing schemes for it's interests that somehow always under-fly the EU regulations. I don't believe for one second that Alitalia will be out of business. We witnessed Swissair become Swiss and Sabena become SN Airlines. Now I bet you, that we'll witness Alitalia pull a similar deal whereby Alitalia will keep it's name and popular brand and somehow, magically, the debt disappears like that.
Tataa - game over.


User currently offlineMauriceB From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 2489 posts, RR: 25
Reply 15, posted (7 years 8 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3320 times:

Well the only reason why AF-KL would take over AZ is because they need extra capicity really bad. But it wouldn't be smart though because AF-KL is an exceptionally good running airline, while AZ isn't doing good at all, so it will cost them a lot of money to make it a good running airline!

But when it will happen, AZ will certainly get a way smaller fleet. First of all they need to replace the MD's with A319's/A320's , but not in equel numbers to the MD's they replace. then they should take a look at the long-haul operations, maybe some more 777's or even a A330 order, so that they can really replace the MD-11, which is now used as an interm solution (isn't it?)


User currently offlineWingedarrow From Italy, joined May 2005, 169 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (7 years 8 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3282 times:

LET'S CLOSE ALITALIA!!! This is the only way to really save the airline and grant it a future. No alliances, no mergers, no recovery plans, no takeovers can save Alitalia from bankruptcy. All the talking that government and management are doing about possible alternatives is just ridiculous...


אליטליה
User currently offline797 From Venezuela, joined Aug 2005, 1891 posts, RR: 27
Reply 17, posted (7 years 8 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3162 times:

All that you've said makes sense to me...

Quoting Semsem (Reply 11):
It would be financial suicide with all their employee problems.

And if AF-KL takes over AZ, can they manage AZ employees? i.e. start throwing out the aging-useless ones?

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 15):
that they can really replace the MD-11, which is now used as an interm solution

They converted all of them into freighters I believe. Their Long-haul fleet consists of 763ERs and 772ERs.



Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous!
User currently offlineNycfly75 From Italy, joined Aug 2005, 751 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2931 times:

Here's the latest:

AZ and AF-KL are in "intensive" merger talks according to a DUTCH daily, not an Italian one!

http://in.news.yahoo.com/061114/137/69d3w.html


User currently offlineComeAndGo From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1034 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2699 times:

Quoting Nycfly75 (Reply 18):
AZ and AF-KL are in "intensive" merger talks according to a DUTCH daily, not an Italian one!

That means that the Dutch are interested in buying out AZ. We'll see if the Italian government is willing to cease control to a foreign country.

Interesting is also that Dutch investors have increase their share of Air France. If Air France is majority owned by foreigners it could loose it's EU air transport operating license in France and no longer operate within the country.

http://www.atwonline.com/news/other.html?issueDate=11%2F16%2F2006


User currently offlineB777A340Fan From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 764 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2605 times:

Quoting Wingedarrow (Reply 16):
LET'S CLOSE ALITALIA!!! This is the only way to really save the airline and grant it a future. No alliances, no mergers, no recovery plans, no takeovers can save Alitalia from bankruptcy. All the talking that government and management are doing about possible alternatives is just ridiculous...

That's coming from an italian, AZ doesn't even have support from its own homebase.  rotfl  But I do agree with you though, let AZ go down into the history books as one of the worst airlines to fly the skies and be done with it. It would be equivalent to shooting yourself in the foot should AF/KLM even remotely considered to acquire AZ (along with its enormous debts). AF/KLM already have sufficient service to Italy, but should they need more space, when AZ dies, I'm sure they could purchase more space.


User currently offlineBoeing777/747 From Belgium, joined Dec 2001, 643 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2591 times:

The KLM-AZ merger catastrophe in the past did not succeed because of the big cultural differences between the Dutch and the Italians. Maybe with AF as the leading party in Air France KLM group a take over of AZ by AF-KL is now more likely. Do not forget that transavia.com (AF-KL) is expanding on the Italian market already for some years... It could be the case that transavia can become AZ's low cost airline in future (when AZ is taken over by AF-KL)  Wink And indeed maybe the EU will not approve such a mega-merge between AF-KL & AZ.

User currently offlineBAW716 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2027 posts, RR: 27
Reply 22, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2461 times:

B777A340Fan

Having worked for Alitalia, I beg to differ with both of you. There are many good people at Alitalia, the airline has HUGE potential. We built a strong franchise in San Francisco that would have been a tremendous success for the airline save 9/11, which caused AZ to downsize the fleet and take our aircraft and put it on the critical NYC-Italy flights.

As I have said, the problem lies not only with Alitalia, but with the Italian government and the laws that favor unions over management. That said, I'm also not saying that AZ management has had been a significant contributor to it's problems. However, it would seem that Mr. Cimoni has tried to the extent he can to create efficiencies to allow AZ to merge with another European airline (ideally AF..although I am personally not thrilled with that for a number of reasons I won't get into here).

Were Alitalia a totally private enterprise and the labor laws such that unions could not pull off the stunts they have without consequence, and a management team is brought in that is expert in turning around airlines (they do exist), Alitalia could be the hope that Italy (and a lot of us around the world) want it to be.

I spent four years as an Area Manager for Alitalia in San Francisco and I can tell you that, after spending nearly six years with United, I have come to know some of the most professional and creative people in the business. I was very proud to be part of that. This is why I take issue with those people that consider Alitalia a joke. Alitalia has serious problems and it requires a level of courage that I am not certain exists. I hope that someone in Italy and Europe find that courage.

baw716



David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5566 posts, RR: 36
Reply 23, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2439 times:

Why should LH have any interest in AZ? LH has a hub in MUC and, with Swiss, in ZRH, which is very close (204 km, 127 mi) to MXP. Another hub there would only be a burden. I think if the merger between AZ and Air One happened LH would rather sell their shares.

[Edited 2006-11-17 18:17:10]

User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4389 posts, RR: 76
Reply 24, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2350 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I started a thread that doubled this one : here it is after some serious copypasting :


Popular wisdom says "no smoke without fire" and the articles in the European press on a possible acquisition by AF/KL are now coming out at a greater rate , so much that the Alitalia stock went up 3.5% in the past three days.
To-day, the Figaro in its economics page suggests that :
(my translation)
-" AF CEO is more than ever tempted to buy back the Italian company...
- since October 10, Mr Prodi, tired of seeing the company - AZ - struggling in vain, has given its boss, Giancarlo Cimoli three months to come out with a rescue plan that would be at last credible...
- following that ultimatum, the board has charged Mr Cimoli to tie an alliance. The idea of an alliance with AF/KL is at the moment the most credible...
- AF boss, says a consultant, knows well that the Italian company would be viable after some deep restructuring...
- he also knows the Italian market : it is still relatively protected even though LCCs are taking advantage of AZ's sorry state to place their marbles...AF/KL would know how to reinvigorate the Roman or Milanese traffic with CDG and AMS...
- the three companies are already working together in the Skyteam alliance...
- ...Spinetta has better be very demanding...If he buys AZ at its just price, he is the only one who could restart it...he would know how to extend the network system, augment frequencies and create synergies as he's done with KL...
-...in his mind, that restructuring will demand a lot of courage, as much as that needed to redress AF fifteen years ago...the medicine is well known (to him).
- AZ should be privatised and re dimensioned, says an expert. Its management should not back down from taking painful decisions : Even if the unions are very powerful, they at the present time don't know where to go, absenteeism is at its highest...and the pilots , who have lost their motivation, should be offered a capital sharing agreement comparable with the one signed at AF..."


Now, combine this article with the thread on an AF/KL questionnaire and you have the smoke.
Is there a fire ?



Contrail designer
25 BAW716 : Pihero, One thing that is certain: AF and KL have succeeded at making things work and they are making money. Mr. Spinetta has had a very good deal to
26 Wingedarrow : The French solution is the best one for Alitalia. Without the shadow of a doubt, Alitalia's status must be changed and as soon as possible. I think th
27 ContinentalEWR : AF/KL should buy AZ's assets and assume plane leases, renegotiate them down based on AF/KL's higher credit rating, rationalize the FCO and MXP hub str
28 LHStarAlliance : I doubt LH would take over AZ , they´re working to finish the Swiss merger , and they have already EN , as far as I remember they have ordered 321 fo
29 Qazar : Why will LH even consider the thought of buying Alitalia? They serve over 16 cities in Italy with their own metal, plus all the other connections via
30 BAW716 : ContinentalEWR, Your points are well taken, except the one of firing every single employee at AZ. This one is a bit over the top. There are some very
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